Guild Renown Changes

[Nestroy]

Just throwing this out there.
There have been a lot of clever formulas suggested by users to fix the whole guild renown problem.
Why not just something super simple?
No decay.
No small guild bonus.
Guild renown gained by players is divided by half the active members in the guild down to a minimum of 1 renown.

Different sized guilds have no real advantage over each other.
Casual guilds can still get to 100 but it will take them longer than non-casuals (but not anywhere near as long as it does with decay).
Power gamers will still be ahead, because they're working hard for it.

As for leader boards, that won't be an issue if renown can just continue to be gained. And to make it fair for new guilds to catch up, there can be renown decay after level 100. At a constant rate that increases in a linear way, say 5k decay per level over 100.

That way everyone can get the buffs if they WORK for it.

Everyone has to do the same amount of work, as oppose to casual players having to do LOTS more work to make up for the reason they can't play often (because lets be fair, if people play a game then they like playing it. I'm sure that if people could play the game all the time, then they probably would. People have reasons for not playing - more often than not pretty good ones.)

And hell. Turbine could just add some ship buffs that are ONLY gold seal, but make them drop in chests at the rate that most DDO store items do. That way Turbine will still make money from guild ships other than impatient guilds that are still growing.

Is there any problem with that at all?

+1 - I find this system simple and beautiful. Great Idea!

[Nestroy]

I agree. Character capped guilds now have the ability to hit the highest guild level. The assumption that they all will hit renown cap every single day because renown is marginalized remains to be seen.

Because guilds have a higher probability of meeting or exceeding their earning potential in smaller guilds, and a lower probability of meeting their earning potential as the size increases... Moderately sized guilds will remain at the top of the leaderboards over much larger counterparts EVEN with the system against them. If THIS is wrong (I admit: assumption on my part) I am totally on the smaller guilds are unfairly disadvantaged bandwagon



Well this depends too... I understand that the number of small guilds outnumber medium and large. If you take the total number of accounts in the small guilds and compare them to the total number of accounts in the medium and large guilds what would the percentage be?

Player population % has far more weight than the number of groupings because it translates to sum total of revenue gaining potential.

Moderate sized guilds have the edge currently, no doubt. Especially if they are (very) active. Easy to understand why, though:
+ Most moderate sized guilds have hit their cap somewhere in the 80ies. Now they got growth again.
+ For small guilds to grow bigger it takes time. The in-between after 2 months is a moderate sized guild. Small guilds now in the new system want to grow (not all, but some) due to benefits with decay.
+ There is only a player base that big on any given server. To grow really big (if not doling out invis on spam base) takes time and might even be impossible due to player base total size. So moderate size actually might be the ideal size for most guilds - an equilibrium between decay and possibilities to recruit.

I might add that about 25 pages past in this thread somebody suggested the new equilibrium size of guilds might be found in the 30ies for active accounts, instead of 10 -12 as before.

[Gremmlynn]

Guild renown gained by players is divided by half the active members in the guild down to a minimum of 1 renown.

This would have the same effect on casual players as the old decay/player system did. Why will those who play more often (and really that includes everyone who plays enough to effectively run a guild) keep those around who don't when doing so will slow them down?

[Kaisoni]

This would have the same effect on casual players as the old decay/player system did. Why will those who play more often (and really that includes everyone who plays enough to effectively run a guild) keep those around who don't when doing so will slow them down?

Admitedly the biggest down side is that a person in a small guild will be responsible for a larger amount of the renown raked in, but it's also easier to keep track of people in a small guild. You'll probably know the people, and be more willing to accept that someone's not going to contribute for whatever reason (and that's always been, and going to be an issue really). Edit: But they'll never go backwards under level 100.

And while it will slow larger guilds down a bit, it will matter less. And they'll never go backwards (Edit: under level 100) because of it. Barely a reason to kick someone.

It'll stop the korthos army guilds because there won't be an advantage to it (nor a real disadvantage).

There will be guilds that keep themselves casual-free and boot people (but they probably also won't invite people unless they're willing to be active).

And there will be guilds that don't care about the rankings and will accept casual people with the knowledge that they will get to 100 eventually.

[DocBenway]

Not in the least because you have not thought the idea through.

What you haven't thought through is attempting an answer for small guilds that is not "Change the way you play" or "Open your wallet."

There is absolutely no difference between Favor and Renown conceptually except 1 applies to an individual and the other applies to a collective of individuals.

[slarden]

Um YOU said you're the one carrying your guild and that the others are rarely on.... I didn't lie.. I don't lie.. I have no reason to...

As I've said I can see SOME kind of an adjustment in that... But not a major one.. You get free renown now, and always have... Is it others fault YOU refuse to work on renown and choose to do other things? Perhaps if oyu spent the hour a day you spend posting here getting renown.. Or is it that you can't because you're posting on your bosses time?

I have agreed with that many times.. Again, watching you post, you seem to poo-poo on any hints others have given you.. You dont' want to recruit... You dont' want to adjust your playstyle so you get more renown.. You've made your own bed... Maybe I'm wrong though, and you actually DO try and get renown jsut as MY guild does... So that we get the benefit of that EFFORT...

I see you and a couple others... Now then, I'm usre there are other small guilds that are frustrated with the 20 accounts thing... And I'm sure that Vargiullle has read WAY more of your posts on the subject then can be tolerated...
It's apparent you don't follow anybodies advice... For others sake I hope they adjsut the system.. For someone like you I hope they don't....

The join a REAL guild....

I didn't call you on previous lies but I am calling you on all the recent lies about my guild. I group with people in the guild and did all day yesterday. I said I mostly soloed through a few TRs but of course there were no guildies I was TRing with. I have TRd with guildies in the past many times. I said we had two highly active and I also said activity level varies. We've had 3 very active the past few weeks but it could be 0 next week or it could be 4. It's not fixed and/or permanent which any reasonable person would understand. We also have some casual players that have never been very active. Why is it ok to have to casual players in large guilds but in small guilds it makes the guild not a "real guild". You continue to try and make points through deception and critizing the person rather than having any real issue you are trying to give feedback. The reason this thread is so long is not because of those us of trying to give feedback on. It's because of grievers attacking those giving feedback.

I am not going to follow advice that is ridiculous. Almost everyone I encounter is already in a guild. I am not going to recruit from other gulids - I see no point in asking a person in a guild to change to another guild simply so our guild level can go higher or go up faster. The guild chat is a minor thing for most people in this game - even most of those I know from large guilds don't know most of the people in their guild. They group with people they've run with before regardless of the guild.

The advice to be more active is again ridiculous because it's very likely my guild is already more active than most of the guilds saying this. However, the people in my guild are having renown taken a way at a rate much higher than the people saying this. We have a test going right now we shall see if activity is indeed the issue. It's measurable.

Your advice is that we need to earn renown and at the same time you want to keep 75% of the renown from people you boot and are adamant on this point and then at the same time criticize those saying they would like to be able to keep more of the renown they earn (rather having it taken away by decay). You attack character and criticize people for commenting on this issue in an official topic thread. As I've seen your posts, they are almost all the same thing - grieving others.

You are the one that needs to change your actions here and not me.

There are a small handful from large guilds that are here trying to prevent small guilds from getting a decay reduction. Ironically large guilds were almost unanimously asking for a decay reduction and/or to eliminate decay all last year. Although these people from large guilds pretend to have noble purposes, it's really quite simple that the objective is to ensure that large guilds retain the massive advantage they have right now. I would the devs can see through this nonsense and realize that allowing people to group in a way that is natural to them is also an important thing.

I think when you say "join a real guild" this is the crux of the problem here. Some people are elitists and want to make the game harder for others.

[smatt]

I didn't call you on previous lies but I am calling you on all the recent lies about my guild. I group with people in the guild and did all day yesterday. I said I mostly soloed through a few TRs but of course there were no guildies I was TRing with. I have TRd with guildies in the past many times. I said we had two highly active and I also said activity level varies. We've had 3 very active the past few weeks but it could be 0 next week or it could be 4. It's not fixed and/or permanent which any reasonable person would understand. We also have some casual players that have never been very active. Why is it ok to have to casual players in large guilds but in small guilds it makes the guild not a "real guild". You continue to try and make points through deception and critizing the person rather than having any real issue you are trying to give feedback. The reason this thread is so long is not because of those us of trying to give feedback on. It's because of grievers attacking those giving feedback.

I am not going to follow advice that is ridiculous. Almost everyone I encounter is already in a guild. I am not going to recruit from other gulids - I see no point in asking a person in a guild to change to another guild simply so our guild level can go higher or go up faster. The guild chat is a minor thing for most people in this game - even most of those I know from large guilds don't know most of the people in their guild. They group with people they've run with before regardless of the guild.

The advice to be more active is again ridiculous because it's very likely my guild is already more active than most of the guilds saying this. However, the people in my guild are having renown taken a way at a rate much higher than the people saying this. We have a test going right now we shall see if activity is indeed the issue. It's measurable.

Your advice is that we need to earn renown and at the same time you want to keep 75% of the renown from people you boot and are adamant on this point and then at the same time criticize those saying they would like to be able to keep more of the renown they earn (rather having it taken away by decay). You attack character and criticize people for commenting on this issue in an official topic thread. As I've seen your posts, they are almost all the same thing - grieving others.

You are the one that needs to change your actions here and not me.

There are a small handful from large guilds that are here trying to prevent small guilds from getting a decay reduction. Ironically large guilds were almost unanimously asking for a decay reduction and/or to eliminate decay all last year. Although these people from large guilds pretend to have noble purposes, it's really quite simple that the objective is to ensure that large guilds retain the massive advantage they have right now. I would the devs can see through this nonsense and realize that allowing people to group in a way that is natural to them is also an important thing.

I think when you say "join a real guild" this is the crux of the problem here. Some people are elitists and want to make the game harder for others.

I won't even bother to respond to most of this... I haven't lied once... I don't lie... I may be wrong... But I don't lie....

I don't see anybody from large guilds trying to do anything nerferious to small builds. In fact I have seen a bunch of people in this thread saying that YES, something should be done to further accomodate small guilds. Just not the whole sale givaway some seem to want.

Have a nice game

[smatt]

Ok, where is my size bonus for being in a large guild?

I do not want to be penalized by not being given a bonus to renown for being in a large guild.

Stop penalizing large guilds! It's not fair!

LOL Nice...

[smatt]

Just throwing this out there.
There have been a lot of clever formulas suggested by users to fix the whole guild renown problem.
Why not just something super simple?
No decay.
No small guild bonus.
Guild renown gained by players is divided by half the active members in the guild down to a minimum of 1 renown.

Different sized guilds have no real advantage over each other.
Casual guilds can still get to 100 but it will take them longer than non-casuals (but not anywhere near as long as it does with decay).
Power gamers will still be ahead, because they're working hard for it.

As for leader boards, that won't be an issue if renown can just continue to be gained. And to make it fair for new guilds to catch up, there can be renown decay after level 100. At a constant rate that increases in a linear way, say 5k decay per level over 100.

That way everyone can get the buffs if they WORK for it.

Everyone has to do the same amount of work, as oppose to casual players having to do LOTS more work to make up for the reason they can't play often (because lets be fair, if people play a game then they like playing it. I'm sure that if people could play the game all the time, then they probably would. People have reasons for not playing - more often than not pretty good ones.)

And hell. Turbine could just add some ship buffs that are ONLY gold seal, but make them drop in chests at the rate that most DDO store items do. That way Turbine will still make money from guild ships other than impatient guilds that are still growing.

Is there any problem with that at all?

]

Some decemnt ideas here.. Although, I still don't see an equal revenue stream for Turbine within this system. But I guess that would depend on what gold seal only buffs they added. +1 for the thoughts though.

[Nestroy]

Ok, where is my size bonus for being in a large guild?

I do not want to be penalized by not being given a bonus to renown for being in a large guild.

Stop penalizing large guilds! It's not fair!

Normally, playing in a large guild is a bonus in itself, with all the guild runs and the less decay / account and the faster leveling possibilities.

But now that you mentioned it, if Turbine wants to even out the system for small and large guilds alike, all they have to do is to dole out more bonus, starting with 3,000 % at a 5 - 6 account guild and then handing down bonuses until at 301 active accounts a guild does not get anything any more. So most large guilds will get at least some bonus. Wouldn´t that be fine?

[Hendrik]

What you haven't thought through is attempting an answer for small guilds that is not "Change the way you play" or "Open your wallet."

There is absolutely no difference between Favor and Renown conceptually except 1 applies to an individual and the other applies to a collective of individuals.

Or that you want to hurt a bunch of people because you are not getting your way on decay?

Are you really prepared to loose your extra bank slots, extra inventory, HP, and a bunch of other stuff when you drop below the granted favor level?

No, didn't think so.

[twigzz]

Well I think I'm gonna bow out of this thread. It's turning into pure nonsense now....

Good luck with your small inactive guilds, mine will continue rising. Slowly but surely! Unless of coarse we get a 3000% bonus for very small guilds, we'll be at lvl100 in no time lol.

[Hendrik]

Why do you find it necessary to lie to try and make your point? Where did you get the idea that people in my guild never group together? Well you made it up as you often make things up in your posts.

If you solo zerg alot, your not grouping with the your guild a lot. Dualbox piking is taking a slot that can be filled by a real person.

You have taken the mantle of getting renown on your own shoulders. Your other guildmates do not worry about it. Maybe it is time to play with them and also not worry about it? Changing the system because you have decided to do it alone is not a good reason to change the system as a whole. And yes, I still think there needs a tweak or two, but the most benefit that you can gain is from including your guild in getting guild renown.

And these tips you have taken from other Guilds, why not include your other guildmates in them?

[Hendrik]

]

Some decemnt ideas here.. Although, I still don't see an equal revenue stream for Turbine within this system. But I guess that would depend on what gold seal only buffs they added. +1 for the thoughts though.

For revenue AND to help the renown gains;

TP only Shrines that give 10, 15, 20% bonus to renown. Available at the same time you can buy the upgraded ships. Large hookpoint, stacks with everything.

[Hendrik]

Well I think I'm gonna bow out of this thread. It's turning into pure nonsense now....

Good luck with your small inactive guilds, mine will continue rising. Slowly but surely! Unless of coarse we get a 3000% bonus for very small guilds, we'll be at lvl100 in no time lol.

Hear ya twigzz.

And heartfelt thank you for actually helping and doing your part.

/respect.

[Mr_Ed7]

My small guild should be at level 65 by the time of this post.

I am not sure if collecting renown is so neccesary at this point.
From 65-70 there is no real improvement.

There is a guild announcement at 70, which is cool.

However, after 70, we do not get another ship until 80 or 85.

I am not gonna sweat too much over renown, in fact I will suggest guildies take their awards in the form of items.

With the possability of decay we may never reach 80 or 85, and I am ok with that.
I like our current ship and its amount of buffs.

Just my two cents on how renown affects others.

[slarden]

If you solo zerg alot, your not grouping with the your guild a lot. Dualbox piking is taking a slot that can be filled by a real person.

You have taken the mantle of getting renown on your own shoulders. Your other guildmates do not worry about it. Maybe it is time to play with them and also not worry about it? Changing the system because you have decided to do it alone is not a good reason to change the system as a whole. And yes, I still think there needs a tweak or two, but the most benefit that you can gain is from including your guild in getting guild renown.

And these tips you have taken from other Guilds, why not include your other guildmates in them?

Zerging can be done in parties and I mentioned joining zerg parties many times. Including zerging with guildies. My main change is no longer forming random lfms and also turning down some groups. Due to our high decay we must choose between running fast or having our guild move backwards.

As I said I do play the game with guildies - much more in fact than I've soloed. They are not always on at the same times and sometimes have different things they want to do.

I am trying to focus on renown a bit so others in the guild don't have to. I have taken tips that made tips and those helped. I am not about to tell my guildmates how to the play the game. I see little benefit in doing so.

Nobody is trying to change the system for the reasons you state. We want to change the system because decay is much higher for the people in guilds of 10 or less than they are for people in large guilds like yours. Large guilds complained about decay all last year when it was high for those guilds.

The system needs to be changed because it is completely out of balance.

[Hendrik]

Zerging can be done in parties and I mentioned joining zerg parties many times. Including zerging with guildies. My main change is no longer forming random lfms and also turning down some groups. Due to our high decay we must choose between running fast or having our guild move backwards.

As I said I do play the game with guildies - much more in fact than I've soloed. They are not always on at the same times and sometimes have different things they want to do.

I am trying to focus on renown a bit so others in the guild don't have to. I have taken tips that made tips and those helped. I am not about to tell my guildmates how to the play the game. I see little benefit in doing so.

Nobody is trying to change the system for the reasons you state. We want to change the system because decay is much higher for the people in guilds of 10 or less than they are for people in large guilds like yours. Large guilds complained about decay all last year when it was high for those guilds.

The system needs to be changed because it is completely out of balance.

And why did those large complain?

Because to advance you had to kick people. It was not an inclusive system but exclusive. Ever try to overcome 100k decay a day? You think you have it bad with a paltry 20k?

Fact is, your advancing now and better then you ever have before. You listened to tips given to you and applied them to your gameplay and low and behold, they work. Keep utilizing those tips and the more that you have been given and will be given and things will continue to change until your guilds activity level reaches the same level as decay. At that point you will be in the same boat as every other guild on every other server. You will have achieved your limit based on guild size and activity level. Then you will have more choices to make.

Here are more tips to help you and your Guild;

Organize Guild Events. Favor runs. EE loot runs. Guild Bday runs. Just run stuff at or higher then your character level to maximize renown.

The system is NOT completly out of balance. It is far closer to being balanced then it ever has been and with a minor tweak or two it will be even better.

[Chaos000]

And while it will slow larger guilds down a bit, it will matter less. And they'll never go backwards (Edit: under level 100) because of it. Barely a reason to kick someone.

When you say "barely a reason" this means a reason exists.

Please remove from your equation the ability for more active members to decrease the work they have to do by eliminating the casual players that can't play as often.

Instead of dividing guild renown gained by players by half the active members, find some way to not factor any active members in the equation. (Guild level, straight percentage, total renown gained) This is the only way the "barely a reason" will turn into "there is absolutely NO reason" to kick someone.

[Chaos000]

But now that you mentioned it, if Turbine wants to even out the system for small and large guilds alike, all they have to do is to dole out more bonus, starting with 3,000 % at a 5 - 6 account guild and then handing down bonuses until at 301 active accounts a guild does not get anything any more. So most large guilds will get at least some bonus. Wouldn´t that be fine?

Provided that kicking a player will not result in an increase in bonus I am totally on board with this idea.