Dark Monk Rogue Mix

[Cealdor]

Can I get opinions and feedback on the following build? Its meant to dualwield Shortswords, while getting the most dps it can from sneak attacks. Im not sure why but I seem to do more damage from the shortswords then i do from wraps on its present build in game.

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Kealdor 
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Half-Elf Male
(12 Monk \ 8 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 328
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 21
Will: 15

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             14                 16                   16
Dexterity            16                 20                   24
Constitution         14                 17                   18
Intelligence          8                  8                    8
Wisdom               16                 20                   21
Charisma              8                  8                    8

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    23
Bluff                -1                    -1
Concentration         2                    25
Diplomacy            -1                    -1
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle                3                    12
Heal                  3                     5
Hide                  7                    32
Intimidate           -1                    -1
Jump                  6                    15
Listen                3                     5
Move Silently         7                    32
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                    -1
Spot                  7                    20
Swim                  2                     3
Tumble                7                    13
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Hide (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Barbarian
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Mixed Heritage
Feat: (Automatic) Half-Elven Social Graces
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I


Level 2 (Monk)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Automatic) AC Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Breezes
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Candles
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Pebbles
Feat: (Automatic) Disciple of Puddles
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Kama
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves
Feat: (Automatic) Flurry of Blows
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Handaxe
Feat: (Automatic) Meditation
Feat: (Automatic) Unarmed Strike
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I


Level 3 (Monk)
Skill: Concentration (+3)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Mobility
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Half-Elf Barbarian Toughness I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Hide (+3)
Skill: Move Silently (+3)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 5 (Monk)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness
Feat: (Automatic) Fast Movement
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves: Path of Harmonious Balance (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Finishing Moves: Path of Inevitable Dominion (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Still Mind
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I


Level 6 (Monk)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Magic
Feat: (Automatic) Slow Fall
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II


Level 7 (Monk)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Damage
Feat: (Automatic) Purity of Body
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey II
Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+3)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Deflect Arrows
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Skill: Hide (+3)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense
Enhancement: Half-Elf Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Half-Elf Barbarian Toughness II


Level 10 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Wholeness of Body
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II


Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Hide (+3)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Feat: (Automatic) Trapmaking
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge (Dodge Bonus)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense II


Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: CON
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Winter's Touch
Enhancement: Adept of Rain


Level 13 (Monk)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I


Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Hide (+3)
Skill: Move Silently (+3)
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II


Level 15 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Curse of the Void
Feat: (Automatic) Ki Strike: Lawful
Feat: (Automatic) Moment of Clarity
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey III
Enhancement: Improved Concentration III


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 17 (Monk)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Feat: (Automatic) Diamond Body


Level 18 (Rogue)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery III


Level 19 (Monk)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Feat: (Automatic) Abundant Step
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense III


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: WIS
Skill: Jump (+6)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge
Enhancement: Master of the Sea
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III

[Merlin-ator]

Yo momma so stupid, she splashed Rogue onto a Monk for evasion.

Sorry, just had to say that at least once in my life

[Celastelin]

Hey Ceal, if you are going to dual wield shortswords, then you might as well be a pure rogue. The main draw to dark monk is touch of death which you need to use handwraps for. Also looking at the build... if you really want that particular one I'd say the half elf dilly you want would be cleric for scroll healing and raising others.

Oh and I notice that it is a 32 pt build. Aren't you going to TR your current monk? If so it should be a 34 pt build.

I guess my main question to you is: Why monk?

[Cealdor]

Was a carry over from Neverwinter Nights Cela where my 2nd monk build was split this way. Also I wanted the long jump from Monk Also the monks water stance and clever monkey would give an added bonus to saves vs traps. I dunno would i have enough for umd for scrool anything if i did switch to cleric dilly. I did as 32 since im still in toss up between doing the feedbacked version as a lesser reincarnate (over 2 weeks) or as a tr.

Hey Ceal, if you are going to dual wield shortswords, then you might as well be a pure rogue. The main draw to dark monk is touch of death which you need to use handwraps for. Also looking at the build... if you really want that particular one I'd say the half elf dilly you want would be cleric for scroll healing and raising others.

Oh and I notice that it is a 32 pt build. Aren't you going to TR your current monk? If so it should be a 34 pt build.

I guess my main question to you is: Why monk?

[Wipey]

I have this glorious rage-TR elven dragonmarked gimp inspired by Unbongwah. But with trapskills and wraps.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=270677&page=2
Sure you can work this split without dragonmarks.

Much better synergy between sneak attacks and stunning fist. If it doesn't get stunned, there's unbalancing strike.
50 ish ac, dodge, perma blur, shadowfade and good reflex, got hit basically only with light damage so far ( think I bought just 3rd hundred of csw pots at lvl 13 so far, which is rare thing for me :-D ) and I love invis clickies.
Also what's with the 3 different stats levelups and NOT taking trapskills with 8 rogue levels ?

[Celastelin]

Now you are making me miss Neverwinter Nights. :P Anyways with the cleric dilly you don't even need UMD to qualify for scrolls. The UMD is considered seperate. Also as a lesser reincarnation makes you take your monk levels all over again so you'd have to TR in order to get all 8 levels of rogue. You could also use 2 LRs +3 and 1 LR +2, but that'd be really expensive and I'm not even sure it would work that way anyways :P

Also if you want to trap you may want to take a point off of dex and wis and put them all in int. You get more skill points that way also which is useful for the rogue levels. I know it will spread you thin but I think you will be better off for it. You still have enough from your tomes to qualify for all 3 tiers of TWF.

Was a carry over from Neverwinter Nights Cela where my 2nd monk build was split this way. Also I wanted the long jump from Monk Also the monks water stance and clever monkey would give an added bonus to saves vs traps. I dunno would i have enough for umd for scrool anything if i did switch to cleric dilly. I did as 32 since im still in toss up between doing the feedbacked version as a lesser reincarnate (over 2 weeks) or as a tr.

[Nubicus]

There are a few reasons you would no doubt see a damage problem between hand wraps and shortswords.

1st: You only have twelve levels of monk, so you have 2.5 [1d6] damage with your fists. A full twenty with a Reinforced Fists item gets minimum 4.5 [1d6.] When combined with-

2nd: You didn't take Improved Critical which means you only crit on a 20, unlike short swords which have a crit range 19-20, commonly have keen expanding it to 17-20.

and

3rd: You have no stunning feat.

I can see how it would appear as if you're doing more damage with short swords.

Right now, it appears you're pulling 4d6 sneak attack damage.

You would have a much better DPS experience if you:
-Went pure Monk
-Earth Stance build
-Level ups into strength
-Power attack
-Stunning Blow
-Rogue Dilletante
-Reinforced Fists item
-Monk Past Life Feat

Or

-Go Pure rogue
-Strength assassin build
-Radiance weapon
-?????
-Profit


Monk is a more reliable front line fighter that can do some heavy damage if built and played correctly, where as rogue is somewhat more frail but can deal stupid amounts of Sneak attack damage.

Here's a link for a solid helf-monk build. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=210181
They use cleric dilly for leveling and switch to Rogue for dps at end game.

[Djeserit]

C Im not sure why but I seem to do more damage from the shortswords then i do from wraps on its present build in game.

I don't understand this.

Have tried a number of monk/rogue splits, including qstaff wielding. Handwraps are always better IMO:

#1 sneak attack is a bonus per hit, and handwraps = more hits
#2 stunning fist
#3 touch of death
#4 ToD rings
#5 vorpal effect (if you have assassin III)
#6 radiance handwraps now

and more reasons...
maybe I was doing something wrong whenever I tried shortswords or qstaff.

My current split 12 monk/7 druid/1 rogue = good (but not great) self healing, extra damage from nature warrior, fun turning into a bear unexpectedly and dancing

I'll probably go back to 7 rogue once the novelty wears off.

I wouldn't do less than 12 monk right now. Tier III stances and extra speed are too juicy. Now that we have vorpal strikes, assassin III vorpal is less useful.

Regarding Touch of Death, it's less impressive after level 22 or so. The mobs have a lot of HP, you are doing a lot of DPS, your epic destiny gives you other ways to deal a burst of pain, and 500 points of damage just doesn't seem like a lot any more. (I might even switch to light monk.)

However, I do believe that most monk splits are stronger than either pure monk or pure rogue. I was once in a guild with an officer who insisted on playing a pure monk. I always out performed him on my gimpy rogue/monk, while his monk was his main character. I could just hear the frustration in his voice. Eventually he refused to group with me.

[Nubicus]

Regarding Touch of Death, it's less impressive after level 22 or so. The mobs have a lot of HP, you are doing a lot of DPS, your epic destiny gives you other ways to deal a burst of pain, and 500 points of damage just doesn't seem like a lot any more. (I might even switch to light monk.)

I have to disagree with your assessment on this. While it's true, on it's face it seems like 500 damage is not that hot, with a set of Alchemical Double Air Tier II wraps stunning you usually see two procs of 750, and on lucky double strikes with ToD I've cleared a significant portion of damage from ToD. It's devesating to bosses and mobs in epic content and without it, your dps lowers significantly. Not to mention it's renewable which means every time the timers off, do it again. I would not switch to Light Monk for more DPS. The thought hurts me head.

If you want be relied upon in raids for Anti-Stun (Boring) or Jade Prisoning the Last Devil (Who does this still?) go light monk.

But if you want to, as another monk enthusiast on this forum put it "Shake the Heavens" dark monk is the way to go.

[Djeserit]

Alchemical Double Air Tier II wraps

I would not switch to Light Monk for more DPS.

But if you want to, as another monk enthusiast on this forum put it "Shake the Heavens" dark monk is the way to go.

I guess I'm more of a casual player, never will have alchemical wraps, probably only done lord of blades six times yet. So maybe it's gear-dependant.

Light monk is for healing-curse when soloing. Not DPS.

I just like to try different combinations; the beauty of DDO, it's customizable to your preference and playstyle.

[Nubicus]

So maybe it's gear-dependant.

It's not even really gear dependant. What I highlighted is just the ability being enhanced by gear.

500-750 and 1000-1500 procs without gear are completely duable with the two weapon fighting chain, and even if it were only pinging for 500 a pop, thats still a reliable 500 damage per click which does nothing but increase your DPS.

[Cealdor]

i meant in game with its regular pure 19 monk it is now the wraps do like 30 damage a hit but the swords do around 50.
the three stat increase i went for to wis to 20 and then dex the rest so id get a better reflex and a better will save. the con i increased since i wasnt sure id have enough hitpoints at 20 so i tried to compensate.

i thought the pretiege ninja spy gave the imp crit for the swords so i didnt take the regular imp crit for them. i almost never used stunning fist so i did a feat swap on it a while ago while leveling the existing build (not whats posted). and when i did use it during that leveling process i never managed to stun anything.

Djeserit i am not sure exactly how i can explain about the damage difference im seeing but you can see what shortswords im using on it in game atm on Orien server. Characters name is Kealdor. the wraps i use when not using swords are +4 paralyzing wraps. kinda funny you out preformed that officer xD and he stopped grouping with you because of it.

going to check out the different monk builds everyone suggested.

[unbongwah]

Im not sure why but I seem to do more damage from the shortswords then i do from wraps on its present build in game.

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you're doing more DPS w/short swords than handwraps on a dark monk, you're doing something wrong. Between faster atk speed, Stunning Fist, Touch of Death, etc. you should be cleaning house fighting unarmed. About the only reason to use SSs instead of wraps (apart from flavor) is to take advantage of any special effects from them: e.g., Cutthroat Smallblade, Envenomed Blade.

Apart from that, many of your build choices are puzzling or suboptimal: I don't know why you have such high WIS on a monk who plans to fight with swords; I don't know why you took Finesse (which is a trap) then didn't put more into DEX; I don't know why you split your stat lvl-ups like that; I don't know why you took Mobility, Spring Atk, Deflect Arrows (which has never worked AFAIK), but not more DPS feats like Power Atk; I don't know why you took so many rog lvls and skipped all the best rog skills (UMD & trap skills).

Encair already linked my Shadow Ninja, so I think it's obvious I'm fine with flavor builds. This build, though, just seems to be tripping over its own feet.

[srxmk2]

I think it won't be bad if you spare 6 lvs of ranger to get tempest 1. There are some very good shortswords after lv20. Star of the day, celestia both have very good base damage. With proper ED enhancements the base damage can be as high as 5d10. Also dev has mentioned in the new enhancement system there will be something special for shortswords in the ninja spy tree.