Do something decent with the Antipode wraps...

[pelaaja]

120 on crits is quite low actually. You should be getting 240-300 or so on crits. You probably need to re-think some gear, destiny, and/or stat choices.

:/ With a 12 monk/6 fighter/2 paladin? All I can think of getting better gear is a Seal of House Dun'Robaar for +5 DC to stunning fist and getting GS items

[fartlord]

you can get lvl 24cormyrian wraps with much better stats.
one of my pairs has.

impellent
slicing winds
imp destruction
fracturing.

another pair has
caustic
disintigration
life steal
hemorrhaging

[Sarnind]

atm antipode wraps really suck compared with other wraps

[redspecter23]

atm antipode wraps really suck compared with other wraps

I could handle them being sub par if they did something unique. Madstone Boots for instance are not best in slot boots for the stats on them, but they do bring a unique ability that keeps them potentially useful even in endgame. The best Antipode can offer is "I like to crush neutral stuff slightly more than other stuff". That's the only thing it really does that's unique in any way and sadly many of the other CitW weapons also fall into this category of non unique.

If something isn't going to be unique in any way, then to be an interesting weapon it simply has to out dps the things that have come before it. ESoS shuts that down for most web weapons and a decent loot gen set of wraps out DPS's Antipode. So CitW weapons are both non unique and less DPS than other options. In order to do anything remotely interesting, you have to pair it with a Conflux and upgrade. Tier 1 should have been standard on the weapons for this reason and not require an actual upgrade.

[Lord_Darquain]

So CitW weapons are both non unique and less DPS than other options. In order to do anything remotely interesting, you have to pair it with a Conflux and upgrade. Tier 1 should have been standard on the weapons for this reason and not require an actual upgrade.

Think of it this way: you have to run the new raid a lot to get the new weapons with huge base dice + effects, but they let you use a weaker version (if you want) while you're running the new raid. It's like greensteel tiering in that way. I have better stuff than the tier 1 weapon I just made on my new toon, so I'm using that better stuff until he gets his greensteel weapon to tier 3.

See also eberron epic raid weapons, alchemical, gianthold, and abbot weapons. This is how raid weapons have worked in DDO for some time. They start weak compared to random loot and can be upgraded to be slightly better than random loot. This is not new, what is new is that a new raid can't get you specific weapon types with huge crit profiles the way Shroud and Lord of Blades can. Boo Hoo.

[Fafnir]

Yeah but Antipode kinda sucks the whole way through...

[redspecter23]

Think of it this way: you have to run the new raid a lot to get the new weapons with huge base dice + effects, but they let you use a weaker version (if you want) while you're running the new raid. It's like greensteel tiering in that way. I have better stuff than the tier 1 weapon I just made on my new toon, so I'm using that better stuff until he gets his greensteel weapon to tier 3.

See also eberron epic raid weapons, alchemical, gianthold, and abbot weapons. This is how raid weapons have worked in DDO for some time. They start weak compared to random loot and can be upgraded to be slightly better than random loot. This is not new, what is new is that a new raid can't get you specific weapon types with huge crit profiles the way Shroud and Lord of Blades can. Boo Hoo.

You do have a good point. I suppose I still have my mind stuck in the "classic" raid mindset. You loot a piece of raid loot and that's it. It's done and ready to use. But slowly over time we've gotten away from that. Obviously Shroud and LoB use a tiered formula for raid loot. Eberron epics along with GH and Abbot had that added as a higher tier later. I guess my line of thought was that since CitW doesn't have 2 versions (epic and non epic) there would be no reason to have a tiered system.

The truth of the matter is that Turbine wants us to collect 4 pieces of raid loot in order to construct one item now, rather than the single variable that was required in the long lost past. This may be getting slightly easier with a proposed higher drop rate on coms coming in U16. I'll wait and see about that.

The "DOOOOOOMER" in me wonders why CitW has a low drop rate (compared to older raids) combined with a widget system (commendations) to upgrade subpar raid loot into basic raid loot at the same time as raid bypasses were introduced. It's a lot more grinding that we were originally used to.

On to your first point. As I mentioned, there are three types of raid weapons as I see it. Those that do nothing flashy but have massive DPS potential. These are your ESoS type weapons. It's very tough to design around them as they really only do one thing well and do it in a general sense. In order to make a better weapon, you essentially obsolete the one that came before. Most CitW weapons do not attempt to fill this role. However the bow and rapier and possibly the quarterstaff might be considered here. I'll leave it to the number crunchers to decide. Note that in all examples above, there is some alteration to base multiplier or threat range that tends to give the massive DPS bump over other weapons of the same type.

The second type of raid weapon is one that has a number of special effects, but is not necessarily intended to be king of DPS based on the front number. There is a lot of room for design here as you can start to make specialty weapons that can be situationally "best in slot" while not completely obsoleting everything that has come previously. This is what I think the devs were going for with CitW. The axe, shortsword and longsword fall into this category. There looks like there was an attempt to make them extremely good situational weapons. The result was hit and miss there.

The third type is a weapon that brings nothing useful to players that equip it over other weapons of the same type. It's not overly unique in any way and it's not more powerful than other easier to acquire options. I wouldn't quite place Antipode in this category as any upgraded weapon does bring something unique, however, as an unupgraded weapon I would place it here as there isn't anything overly flashy about it and there are better pure DPS options out there.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

Maybe im stupid..but i read again and again that gravewrappings are better then Antipode?

I wonder what makes them better?

Gravewrappings have +6 - Antipode +7

Gravewraps do +2d6 extra damage - Antipode in the worst case +2d6 (against for example chaotic good) and +3d6 against for example neutral evil and +4d6 against true neutral.

Antipode brakes any alignment DR Gravewrappings do not brake any DR.

Both have stunning +10

Antipode has +6% double strike (more dps)

Gravewrappings have improved destruction and Soul eating which can also be more dps (but not always)


So my question is..what exactly makes them better? From a dps point of view i would clearly use Antipode

[oweieie]

Gravewrappings have improved destruction and Soul eating which can also be more dps (but not always)

Soul eating is also temporary HPs which puts them ahead of antipodes in a lot of situations, but grave wrappings aren't exactly top of my list for wraps either. Well, that's assuming you don't have manslayer which is bugged with the wraps, so... yeah. Bugged wraps. But don't worry, that'll get fixed right soon!

[sandypaws]

Unless I'm completely off-base, antipode can be part of a planar conflux set and grave wrappings can't.
That means 4 attack/damage + 15 prr. Yes, it does compete with some of the claw sets and eats another equipment slot, but the bonus is still quite nice.

[redspecter23]

Maybe im stupid..but i read again and again that gravewrappings are better then Antipode?

I wonder what makes them better?

Gravewrappings have +6 - Antipode +7

Gravewraps do +2d6 extra damage - Antipode in the worst case +2d6 (against for example chaotic good) and +3d6 against for example neutral evil and +4d6 against true neutral.

Antipode brakes any alignment DR Gravewrappings do not brake any DR.

Both have stunning +10

Antipode has +6% double strike (more dps)

Gravewrappings have improved destruction and Soul eating which can also be more dps (but not always)


So my question is..what exactly makes them better? From a dps point of view i would clearly use Antipode

From a DPS standpoint, I wouldn't use either. That's the point. Antipode is trying to be a DPS weapon, but it does it worse than other DPS options. Grave Wrappings are trying to be a utility weapon and succeed very well with that. An upgraded Antipode is a bit more competitive, but the base item is lacking in both utility and DPS, making me wonder why it's raid loot. If I'm going into a raid that has a 1% drop rate per chest for an item, I want my BASE item to actually be raid loot. I don't want to loot a widget that I have to upgrade into raid loot quality with 3 other widgets.

[jakeelala]

why is no one mentioning reinforced fists on antipode?

[redspecter23]

why is no one mentioning reinforced fists on antipode?

A die step is just a fancy way of adding DPS to the weapon, as are almost all the abilities on Antipode. Added double strike. Extra damage to neutral mobs. +7 vs. +6 on most other end game wraps. Everything about this weapon says it's supposed to be doing MOAR DPS, but it just doesn't do that compared to other options. The only utility this weapon brings to the table comes after you unlock the set bonus and that's either 15 PRR or true seeing. Is it worth using a lower DPS weapon (Antipode) to get those bonuses? Probably not, but that's for people to decide for themselves. If I want a utility weapon, I'll use Grave Wrappings, Ivy Wraps or perhaps a decent Eveningstar challenge wrap. If I want a good DPS set I'll use a greater bane or a decent Eveningstar challenge wrap. Antipode is best in slot if I want to max my PRR, but that's about it.

[jakeelala]

I'm not really understanding how these are lower DPS with built in 6% DS, min 2d6 add damage, die step increase, and +7? Add in set bonus for +4 to hit and damage and you're ahead of claw set. 15prr is just cake, plus it's probably better on EH and EE if you do the math than temp HP because the damage numbers are so high.

This is like when people said Pinion and Needle are crappy. They are in fact best in slot items, based on DR. But that's true of any best in slot item, sometimes there's a better alternative. But against non-DR these are probably as good or better than any alternative.

[redspecter23]

I'm not really understanding how these are lower DPS with built in 6% DS, min 2d6 add damage, die step increase, and +7? Add in set bonus for +4 to hit and damage and you're ahead of claw set. 15prr is just cake, plus it's probably better on EH and EE if you do the math than temp HP because the damage numbers are so high.

This is like when people said Pinion and Needle are crappy. They are in fact best in slot items, based on DR. But that's true of any best in slot item, sometimes there's a better alternative. But against non-DR these are probably as good or better than any alternative.

I'm mostly comparing it to challenge wraps:
2d6 prefix
2d6 suffix (you have to be fighting a true neutral mob with Antipode to break even on this)
"shroud type" burst damage like disintegration, lightning strike, etc (Antipode offers nothing comparable)
+ 1 utility effect like life stealing, vertigo, stunning, combat mastery (stunning on Antipode)
-1 damage compared to Antipode (+6 vs +7)
6% less double strike (or 3% less if you have a 3% item slotted like cannith belt)
The extra die step is already covered by the sun soul set so it's a non issue unless you're WF.
4 less damage and 15 less PRR (debatable, depending on what your trinket would be otherwise)

A number cruncher can do that math if they want, but my guess is that the challenge wraps out DPS the Antipode, possibly even against true neutral mobs under many circumstances. If you typically slot Litany in the trinket, then the +4 damage bonus isn't even as significant anymore. A fully upgraded Antipode post U16 might be a different story, but that's a ton of grinding.

[jakeelala]

I'm mostly comparing it to challenge wraps:
2d6 prefix
2d6 suffix (you have to be fighting a true neutral mob with Antipode to break even on this)
"shroud type" burst damage like disintegration, lightning strike, etc (Antipode offers nothing comparable)
+ 1 utility effect like life stealing, vertigo, stunning, combat mastery (stunning on Antipode)
-1 damage compared to Antipode (+6 vs +7)
6% less double strike (or 3% less if you have a 3% item slotted like cannith belt)
The extra die step is already covered by the sun soul set so it's a non issue unless you're WF.
4 less damage and 15 less PRR (debatable, depending on what your trinket would be otherwise)

A number cruncher can do that math if they want, but my guess is that the challenge wraps out DPS the Antipode, possibly even against true neutral mobs under many circumstances. If you typically slot Litany in the trinket, then the +4 damage bonus isn't even as significant anymore. A fully upgraded Antipode post U16 might be a different story, but that's a ton of grinding.

If you don't have dunrobar seal of stunning, you need stunning on your wraps for everything but red/purple named. +1 stat and +1 combat bonus from litany at best can get you +2 to hit/dmg. That's 2 less than PDK favor, and no PRR (which scales on EE to be a very big bonus for a PRR starved class like monk this WAY better than vampirism). Not too mention, a planar items give you +8 or +3 exc which is very hard to get somewhere on a monk. so there's that.

I hear you that reinforced fists are redundant with way of the sun soul, and it really should stack on these.

Upgrading the raid items post u16 wont be very hard, commendation drops are expected to be increased pretty significantly. So you have to take those changes into account.

Personally I just think the new raid items are getting a lot of flack un-nesc. They are good, they may not be 2x better than other options, but in some cases they are better.

[redspecter23]

If you don't have dunrobar seal of stunning, you need stunning on your wraps for everything but red/purple named. +1 stat and +1 combat bonus from litany at best can get you +2 to hit/dmg. That's 2 less than PDK favor, and no PRR (which scales on EE to be a very big bonus for a PRR starved class like monk this WAY better than vampirism). Not too mention, a planar items give you +8 or +3 exc which is very hard to get somewhere on a monk. so there's that.

I hear you that reinforced fists are redundant with way of the sun soul, and it really should stack on these.

Upgrading the raid items post u16 wont be very hard, commendation drops are expected to be increased pretty significantly. So you have to take those changes into account.

Personally I just think the new raid items are getting a lot of flack un-nesc. They are good, they may not be 2x better than other options, but in some cases they are better.

In the case of stunning, which I also agree is necessary if you are looking to stun high save mobs, the problem is that Antipode doesn't offer anything that any other pair of stunners offers. The most notable comparison is the Grave Wrappings which have 2d6 damage proc which is similar in most situations to the antipodal ability and the absolutely amazing neg level proc which has great synergy with stunning.

As mentioned before Antipode is a bit lost on what it's trying to do. It's not the best weapon if you're looking to stun things and it's not the best weapon if you're looking to dps things. It falls in the middle. Which means it will have some uses, but 95% of the time you'll find yourself better off with other wraps instead.

The best targets for antipodal are mephits, elementals, constructs and other true neutral mobs, many of which are immune to stun so you lose synergy there as well. Banishing beats antipodal on mephits and elementals and smiting beats antipodal on constructs. Beating down druids is where I use Antipode and even there I'd probably be better off with greater human bane if I bothered to get one. On EH wood woads are a pushover and on EE I'd rather be using any wrap with a neg level effect (like Grave Wrappings or challenge wraps) against them even if Antipode might be higher raw dps. There just aren't enough tasty targets for Antipode right now, in my opinion.

[Wylddozer]

In the case of stunning, which I also agree is necessary if you are looking to stun high save mobs, the problem is that Antipode doesn't offer anything that any other pair of stunners offers. The most notable comparison is the Grave Wrappings which have 2d6 damage proc which is similar in most situations to the antipodal ability and the absolutely amazing neg level proc which has great synergy with stunning.

As mentioned before Antipode is a bit lost on what it's trying to do. It's not the best weapon if you're looking to stun things and it's not the best weapon if you're looking to dps things. It falls in the middle. Which means it will have some uses, but 95% of the time you'll find yourself better off with other wraps instead.

The best targets for antipodal are mephits, elementals, constructs and other true neutral mobs, many of which are immune to stun so you lose synergy there as well. Banishing beats antipodal on mephits and elementals and smiting beats antipodal on constructs. Beating down druids is where I use Antipode and even there I'd probably be better off with greater human bane if I bothered to get one. On EH wood woads are a pushover and on EE I'd rather be using any wrap with a neg level effect (like Grave Wrappings or challenge wraps) against them even if Antipode might be higher raw dps. There just aren't enough tasty targets for Antipode right now, in my opinion.

Actually, they do the exact same damage vs. smiting or banishing, you get +1 (+7 over +6) you get 4 damage (conflux) you get 4d6, exact same.

[redspecter23]

Actually, they do the exact same damage vs. smiting or banishing, you get +1 (+7 over +6) you get 4 damage (conflux) you get 4d6, exact same.

Don't forget the extra 100 damage on vorpals with banishers/smiters so about 5 damage extra per hit with the chance to instantly kill below 1000 hp. Also any decent pair wll come with an extra 2d6 prefix/suffix for another 7 damage per hit average. The point is, that Antipode at it's current best can only come close to equal dps. While that's not horrible, it's not like a +6 Shrieking/Smiting set of wraps is completely out of reach for monks if they want to go looking for it.

[JOTMON]

Maybe im stupid..but i read again and again that gravewrappings are better then Antipode?

I wonder what makes them better?

Gravewrappings have +6 - Antipode +7

Gravewraps do +2d6 extra damage - Antipode in the worst case +2d6 (against for example chaotic good) and +3d6 against for example neutral evil and +4d6 against true neutral.

Antipode brakes any alignment DR Gravewrappings do not brake any DR.

Both have stunning +10

Antipode has +6% double strike (more dps)

Gravewrappings have improved destruction and Soul eating which can also be more dps (but not always)


So my question is..what exactly makes them better? From a dps point of view i would clearly use Antipode

Antipode only breaks alignment DR, it does not break metalline.
It is also ineffective vs unaligned mobs..
Try them on the Iron Golem at the end fight of Von5.... Yellow.Immune.Immune.Immune.Immune.Immune..


Gravewrappings do level drain damage thats a large chunk of life removal on proc's.


I have Antipode(crafted with rogue set) and they are decent general beaters, but I use grave wrappings primarially unless facing lifeforce drain immune mobs/bosses. Various random Wraps or LOB wraps work better for names.

The Ivy Wraps I throw on if i want some extra healing and dont want to drin a pot or umd a scroll. The toxic proc is mostly worthless most mobs are still immune to its effects and any susceptible mobs move out of the fog quickly.


A nice perk upgrade would be to add Metalline to these wraps.
They still need some sort of "umph" finisher though...