Helves dilly and umd

[jsm123]

So I was wondering about umd and the Half Elf's dilitantte feats. If you take say the Favored Soul dilly; and say you have all the enhancements for that dilly. Does that lower the umd requirement for scrolls above that lvl so you can utilize umd better or is it useless to have umd for scrolls if you have a caster dilly?

[rimble]

So I was wondering about umd and the Half Elf's dilitantte feats. If you take say the Favored Soul dilly; and say you have all the enhancements for that dilly. Does that lower the umd requirement for scrolls above that lvl so you can utilize umd better or is it useless to have umd for scrolls if you have a caster dilly?

Yeah, there's no direct synergy there. UMD isn't useless, though, because FvS/Cleric Dil will let you use Divine things with no problems up to a certain level...and then you could leverage UMD to access Arcane things. The Arcane things might often have a long duration...like Shield Wands for 10 minutes, or Blur, or Stoneskin...so those you can sort of swap in some UMD gear, buff up, then put your gear back to normal. You can also usually afford to make a few attempts/rolls at getting it to work too, whereas you really want your Heal Scrolls working 100% of the time (or, well, 95% of the time for the Dil's). High enough UMD can of course help you equip certain items too. It all depends on what you want access to.

[jsm123]

Yeah, there's no direct synergy there. UMD isn't useless, though, because FvS/Cleric Dil will let you use Divine things with no problems up to a certain level...and then you could leverage UMD to access Arcane things. The Arcane things might often have a long duration...like Shield Wands for 10 minutes, or Blur, or Stoneskin...so those you can sort of swap in some UMD gear, buff up, then put your gear back to normal. You can also usually afford to make a few attempts/rolls at getting it to work too, whereas you really want your Heal Scrolls working 100% of the time (or, well, 95% of the time for the Dil's). High enough UMD can of course help you equip certain items too. It all depends on what you want access to.

So in other words, I should probably just focus on maxxing umd and pick another dilly unless I cannot reach the umd it would take to cast the lvl of scrolls the fvs dilly can cast?

[Saravis]

So in other words, I should probably just focus on maxxing umd and pick another dilly unless I cannot reach the umd it would take to cast the lvl of scrolls the fvs dilly can cast?

Very much so.

If you can achieve good UMD, go UMD.

With that said, if your UMD isn't sufficiently functional at lower levels, you could start with a cleric/fvs dil and swap it out for something later when your UMD becomes functional.

[fco-karatekid]

...With that said, if your UMD isn't sufficiently functional at lower levels, you could start with a cleric/fvs dil and swap it out for something later when your UMD becomes functional.

This can be a very powerful strategy for leveling. I also thought the dilettante vs umd was worthless until I tried this strat... it's very nice to be able to have little stress about your divine UMD while leveling up. Swapping when UMD overtakes the dile also makes for a nice change of available options in the last few levels of a character.

[FuzzyDuck81]

One major advantage of the dilly over UMD is that your success rate is guaranteed - regardless of whether you're cursed, level drained, have death penalties, or have the skill lowered through any other method.

[jsaving]

So I was wondering about umd and the Half Elf's dilitantte feats. If you take say the Favored Soul dilly; and say you have all the enhancements for that dilly. Does that lower the umd requirement for scrolls above that lvl so you can utilize umd better or is it useless to have umd for scrolls if you have a caster dilly?

The favored soul dilly does help you use scrolls above that level, but it has nothing to do with UMD.

In DDO, there are two ways you can access scrolls you're not automatically able to use. One is a standard UMD check. The other is a "caster level check" where your favored soul level is compared to the minimum level a FvS would need to use the scroll without penalty. Being one level short gives you a 95% chance to use the scroll; each one-level gap between "what you have" and "what you need" reduces that probability by 10%.

As an example, suppose you take all the favored soul dilly enhancements and want to use a heal scroll. Favored souls gain access to the heal spell at 12th level, so that's the number of favored soul levels you need to use the scroll without a hitch. But the dilly enhancements only let you use FvS scrolls as a 10th level caster, leaving you 2 levels short. That means you'll have a 95%-10% = 85% chance to use the scroll.

Alternatively, you can try to access heal scrolls via UMD, even if you don't have any favored soul (or cleric) levels. In that case, you need a 39 to no-fail them and receive a 5% penalty for every point below 39. So a character with a UMD of 36 would have an 85% chance to use a heal scroll. Or put another way, your FvS dilly with all follow-up enhancements gives you an effective UMD of 36 for FvS scrolls.

What if you're able to both? In that case, you use the better of two rolls. If for whatever reason you never expect to have a UMD in the high 30s, then it can absolutely make sense to have the favored soul dilly feat even at high levels, with your modest UMD granting access to things like shield wands and knock scrolls while your much more potent dilly enhancements grant access to heal scrolls. More commonly, though, a cleric or FvS dilly feat is simply a "convenience factor" at low levels, to be replaced by the "real" dilly feat once your UMD reaches respectable levels.

[wax_on_wax_off]

What if you're able to both? In that case, you use the better of two rolls. If for whatever reason you never expect to have a UMD in the high 30s, then it can absolutely make sense to have the favored soul dilly feat even at high levels, with your modest UMD granting access to things like shield wands and knock scrolls while your much more potent dilly enhancements grant access to heal scrolls. More commonly, though, a cleric or FvS dilly feat is simply a "convenience factor" at low levels, to be replaced by the "real" dilly feat once your UMD reaches respectable levels.

Are you sure it uses the better of the two rolls and not rolling twice to see if you succeed on either caster level or UMD?

[jsaving]

Just tested this by purchasing a stack of scrolls on a character who has both a dilly feat and a modest UMD. In this particular case he had an 85% chance to make a caster level check but only a 50% chance to make a UMD check. Each attempt to use the stack prompted a caster level check but no UMD check, with one scroll being consumed each time the caster level check failed.

[xtchizobr]

Just tested this by purchasing a stack of scrolls on a character who has both a dilly feat and a modest UMD. In this particular case he had an 85% chance to make a caster level check but only a 50% chance to make a UMD check. Each attempt to use the stack prompted a caster level check but no UMD check, with one scroll being consumed each time the caster level check failed.

Ahhh, now that is some really useful information, there!

[Thlargir]

Just tested this by purchasing a stack of scrolls on a character who has both a dilly feat and a modest UMD. In this particular case he had an 85% chance to make a caster level check but only a 50% chance to make a UMD check. Each attempt to use the stack prompted a caster level check but no UMD check, with one scroll being consumed each time the caster level check failed.

And did you confirm your success rate at 85%

I only ask because it is possible that any others checks were simply not reported.

[jsaving]

I had an 83% success rate burning through the stack, as compared to an expected 85% if only the caster level check were applying and 92.5% if both checks were taking place.

[Thlargir]

I had an 83% success rate burning through the stack, as compared to an expected 85% if only the caster level check were applying and 92.5% if both checks were taking place.

Sounds definitive - thanks for the follow-up.

[Purkilius]

iirc a cleric dilly has a 95% success rate on heal scrolls but then you would need a 13 wisdom.

[Mellifera]

So in other words, I should probably just focus on maxxing umd and pick another dilly unless I cannot reach the umd it would take to cast the lvl of scrolls the fvs dilly can cast?

This is what I'm doing on my Helf Sorc. Because of the CHA synergy, I'm taking FVS until I get her UMD high enough to reliably cast Heal scrolls. Then I'm switching over to Paladin dilly where 3 AP gets me +4 to her saves. I think it makes more sense then wasting points on WIS to get Cleric dilly.

EDIT: Forgot to add, this thread has a good breakdown on what items/spells/AP's you can combine to get your UMD up high enough. It is out of date so it doesn't include anything from the expansion, but it's a good place to start.

The wiki goes a bit more in depth.