Torn: Epic Spell Pen vs Insightful Reflexes

[teh_meh]

I've recently swapped out Epic Spell Pen for Insightful Reflexes. It really hurts a wizard's epeen to see that blue shield (even just occasionally on EH) but making saves routinely versus meteor storms and cometfalls is pretty sweet. Especially with the prevalence of drow priestess in the new content.

With IR, I'm running around with a reflex save in 45-46 range (spell buffs going but no ship buffs). Without IR, low 30's which means comet falls are bad news. Shiradi draws a lot of agro so it's not uncommon to have priestesses after me.

As a Shiradi WF, my INT is only mid-40's as opposed to in the 50's if I was running Magister.

As Shiradi, I really don't throw a lot of necro spells. Mostly no-fail EVO with an ENCH secondary to amp up helpless damage on Shiradi procs.

As a Shiradi, I am AP starved. Have to go 7/1/1 across all 5 elements which means no toughness or spell pen enhancements for me. Potency is priority #1, then DCs, then Spell Pen accordingly.

Even with wiz and fvs past lives, I'm only sporting a 35 spell pen which pales compared to any elves running around out there. A bit embarrassed about it but trying to stay focused on what my build does rather what wizard conventions have been prior to Motu and epic destinies. Twists are energy burst: acid, Ench DCs +3 and Boulder Toss. Not willing to swap any of those out at this time.

Anyone think that, given this build, I'm making a bad decision foregoing the +4 epic spell feat? It's a pretty big blow performance wise...when I do cast spells that need a spell pen check.

[MRMechMan]

Spell pen is a weird issue. 35 is enough for basically all EN/EH content and even EE most non-drow.

Honestly, I couldn't live without insightful on a wizard though. The difference between a mid 40s reflex and a mid 20s is the difference in some content between failing 95% of the time and succeeding 95% of the time...and reflex save is the MOST important saving throw.'

I guess it depends on the content you run. Any other feat you could drop? Those are pretty good feats pound for pound.

[Tid12]

What are your feats? Maybe there is something else you could drop. What's the second Epic feat?

And, I know you said you aren't swapping Twists but..Boulder Toss? Why you have it? Just curious. IF you are willing to swap it out, thats another +3 Spell Pen if you twist it in from Magister.

EDIT: Maybe even if you swap it out, you haven't enough Fate Points to twist Spell Pen.

[teh_meh]

What are your feats? Maybe there is something else you could drop. What's the second Epic feat?

I'll have to check Fred again. 2 of them for sure are Greater Spell Focus: Evocation and GSF: Enchantment...neither of which I can swap out as they impact my AM DC Masteries. I'll take another look just to be certain what the remaining options are.

And, I know you said you aren't swapping Twists but..Boulder Toss? Why you have it? Just curious. IF you are willing to swap it out, thats another +3 Spell Pen if you twist it in from Magister.

EDIT: Maybe even if you swap it out, you haven't enough Fate Points to twist Spell Pen.

Boulder Toss is a Tier 1 twist doing 10d100 bludgeon. It's good for 1400-4000K damage and is one of the few highly predictable, high-damage abilities I can cast to finish something off if there's no time to rely of getting a random shiradi proc.

I don't think you can twist in the Magister Spell Pen at tier 1 but will look again.

The difference between a mid 40s reflex and a mid 20s is the difference in some content between failing 95% of the time and succeeding 95% of the time...and reflex save is the MOST important saving throw.'

I guess it depends on the content you run. Any other feat you could drop? Those are pretty good feats pound for pound.

This is certainly what I have found to be the case so far, which is why I am torn. Blue shield is embarrassing. But getting knocked down for 6 seconds is even worse, although wizards aren't expected to have uber reflex saves. And they are expected to make their spell pen checks.

Will look again to see what I can do with Fred.

[teh_meh]

Just checked with Fred again, the only way I can take Epic Spell Pen is to remove one of the following

- Greater Spel Pen (obviously this can't work)
- Arcane Initiate (never)
- Greater Spell Focus: EVO (would lose my chain missle SLA which is a big no-no for shiradi)
- Greater Spell Focus: ENCH (would cause me to lose 2 to my DCs, 1 from the feat...1 from the AM spell mastery enh)
- Insightful Reflexes

Derp

[Tid12]

Just checked with Fred again, the only way I can take Epic Spell Pen is to remove one of the following

- Greater Spel Pen (obviously this can't work)
- Arcane Initiate (never)
- Greater Spell Focus: EVO (would lose my chain missle SLA which is a big no-no for shiradi)
- Greater Spell Focus: ENCH (would cause me to lose 2 to my DCs, 1 from the feat...1 from the AM spell mastery enh)
- Insightful Reflexes

Derp

Well, from this list I see nothing you can drop imho. However, Epic Spell Pen is a +4 and it's really not bad. Still, 35 seems kinda low for EE content.

What is your Enchantment DC? If it's high enough, you could drop the GSF: Ench and lose the 2 Ench DC for +4 Spell Pen. The saves of Ench (Will save for hold and disco mostly) can be lowered with Mind fog so I don't think a loss of 2 would be a big trouble to you.

[voodoogroves]

If you are going to care about spell pen, it's probably more important than a DC - certainly with regards to enchantment spells - that's a school with about a bajillion debuff options to drop the saves. Hypno, Mind Fog, etc. etc.

I'd drop the enchantment GSF. Or, maybe, Toughness or Extend if you have one of those.

What are your feats?

[squishwizzy]

Anyone think that, given this build, I'm making a bad decision foregoing the +4 epic spell feat? It's a pretty big blow performance wise...when I do cast spells that need a spell pen check.

A lot of CC spells in Epic Hard require about 35 SP to work, and you're right about at the limit there. Try going EE, and you're going to have problems.

My thought is this: if you are going to solo most content, Insightful Reflexes is probably a good bet. If you PUG, you're going to be the one that everyone looks to for CC as the bulk of your contributions. So the better bet is to go Spell Pen. in this instance. Otherwise, you're going to be getting grief.

I PUG a lot. I had to go back at least once and re-organize my caster (and it is a first-lifer) to make sure that I maxx-ed my spell pen when it became really, really glaringly obvious that I was an impediment to the group in anywhere from 50% - 75% of any given quest. Taking the feats, maxing spell pen, and beefing up my equipment literally turned that all on its head. However - especially given that I'm a first-lifer - I know that the best I'll probably be able to do is Epic Hard without difficulties. Epic Elite is a genuine challenge.

The problem is that in a PUG, you're not going to out-do a Sorc in nuking. You'll be tapped dry before you reach the next shrine. So the place where you're most effective is CC, instakills, with ranging and DoTs a runner-up. Solo, however, is a completely different ballgame. You won't the same means by which to shed aggro as you will in a PUG (guys with sword whacking away on mobs tends to pull aggo away from you pretty quickly), so your focus has to be on all-around survivability.

My suggestion is that if you do max your spell pen, and pull back IR, you'll have to change tactics. Casting and then moving is a fairly good strategy, which cuts down on getting hit by stuff like Comentfall. Another is sneaking and then FoD if you can pull it off (and this is a solo tactic only - forget about doing this in most PUGs where the quest is a small marathon to the end). Putting points into Balance doesn't hurt - half of the problem with stuff like Comet Fall isn't the initial damage, but the fact that you get torn to shreds while prone.

Of course, when the mobs *dance* their way across an Otto's area of effect, *dance* their way OUT of the area of effect, and then start to stomp on your disbelieving skull you begin to wonder why you even bothered with maxxing out spell pen in the first place...

(And yeah, that's happening a lot these days for some "strange" reason.)

[squishwizzy]

Plus - last thing - mass debuffs in a PUG? Nice concept, but not generally practical. People are scattered all over the place beating on each other. The only effective debuff is a single, targeted debuff, and you maybe have a second or two to cast it. So, if you're going to do CC in this type of an arrangement, you'd better get it off fast, on the first try.

I'm sure "your mileage may vary" on this, but I've never been able to pull them off well, and haven't seen anyone to date do it effectively (and repeatedly) in a PUG.

Solo, however, may be a completely different matter.

[Chette]

If you are at 35 spell pen *without* epic spell pen, then I would NOT recommend picking it up.

Unfortunately there is such a huge gap between epic hard and epic elite (terrible design IMO) that it is not worth increasing your spell pen past a certain point unless you can get it "all the way".

With a 35 spell pen you should land just about everything on epic hard and epic normal, and nothing at all on epic elite. If you were to increase it to 39, you will still be in that exact same range. You'll land everything on epic normal and hard, and nothing on epic elite. Well...you might land a few things on lower CR mobs if you roll a 19 or 20.

Insightful reflexes is an great feat, and pretty much required on any wizard IMO.

The only other thing I would do is look at what other sources of spell pen you have available to you. If you can increase your spell pen even further, through equipment, enhancements, or twists, then you might be able to get into the EE range. You can get 3 spell pen from the magister destiny, and another 3 spell pen from the draconic destiny. I believe there is some in fatesinger as well.

[sephiroth1084]

Why are you going 7/1/1 in 5 elements? That's really excessive, and entirely unnecessary. If you mean that it is to make the most of your Shiradi procs, I'd say that it just isn't worth that much AP. At most, I'd say pick up 3 elements at 7/1/1 and go 1/1/1 in the rest. What spell power items are you using to enhance those elements anyway? Are you constantly equipped with 5 different spell power elements? I can't see how, unless you're using something like the Epic Ring of Elemental Essence, which, while nice, is a little lacking for the elements you are focused in, or want to be. I can't imagine you're casting spells from all of the elements regularly.

[Therigar]

Just checked with Fred again, the only way I can take Epic Spell Pen is to remove one of the following

- Greater Spel Pen (obviously this can't work)
- Arcane Initiate (never)
- Greater Spell Focus: EVO (would lose my chain missle SLA which is a big no-no for shiradi)
- Greater Spell Focus: ENCH (would cause me to lose 2 to my DCs, 1 from the feat...1 from the AM spell mastery enh)
- Insightful Reflexes

Derp

Possibly the thing to do is to get the character planner and build the character there. Look to see what feats you took early on and whether you've taken the most useful for the character at its present level.

If you can identify a better total selection then you might want to consider a LR rather than a feat exchange. I suspect that there are some early feats that you might be able to do without and the reason they don't show is because of when you took them related to the prerequisites for epic spell penetration.

Try building the character from L1 up in the character planner keeping in mind all of the "must have" or "most desired" feats and their prereqs. You may be able to find a way thru that way.

[sephiroth1084]

Also worth noting that Insightful Reflexes is a stronger feat than Toughness. Getting an extra 40 HP often makes less difference to your survivability than does ensuring that you make most of your Reflex saves--the difference between a passed save and a failed one is often upwards of 150, and can be as high as 400-600. 40 HP starts to look rather irrelevant in those cases, unless it actually keeps you from dying (ie., you have 640 HP w/ Toughness and take 600 damage).

[Rawrargh]

I'm running another wizard life and figured I'd spice things up a bit by going shiradi conjuration/evocation AM and dump every single spell pen feat. No spell pen check on web, but it won't give you that awesome damage boost that hold's give.
If it doesn't work out, I've got a bunch of lesser hearts.

[teh_meh]

Well thanks for all of the thoughts and opinions. Have considered them carefully. In the end, I have decided to just stick with IR. The key comment made was someone noticing that I have what's needed for EN + EH and since I have no shot at spell pen that will work in EE, there's no point.

I'm not an elf. Necro is not my build's priority at all. Build prioity is generating procs. Secondary priority is ENCH for helpless damage when those procs go off and to help the party.

I have to go 7/1/1 across all 5 elements and gear for potency + force, rather than any 1 or 2 specific elements. 75% of my casts are magic missle, magic missle (SLA), force missles, chain missles, chain missles SLA, arcane initiate missles (x10) and metor storm. If you Shiradi cast it's all about getting the procs. That's the bottom line.

Thank you all again for your experience and insights. None of it was wasted here. If I don't apply your advice to this particular character (Potpourri), it will get applied to my other wizard who I plan to reconfig as a max Spell Pen elf PM Magister.

+1's all around (ug, given out max for this 24 hour period, will make sure you all get hit asap)

[Sonos]

If you are at 35 spell pen *without* epic spell pen, then I would NOT recommend picking it up.

Unfortunately there is such a huge gap between epic hard and epic elite (terrible design IMO) that it is not worth increasing your spell pen past a certain point unless you can get it "all the way".

With a 35 spell pen you should land just about everything on epic hard and epic normal, and nothing at all on epic elite. If you were to increase it to 39, you will still be in that exact same range. You'll land everything on epic normal and hard, and nothing on epic elite. Well...you might land a few things on lower CR mobs if you roll a 19 or 20.

Insightful reflexes is an great feat, and pretty much required on any wizard IMO.

The only other thing I would do is look at what other sources of spell pen you have available to you. If you can increase your spell pen even further, through equipment, enhancements, or twists, then you might be able to get into the EE range. You can get 3 spell pen from the magister destiny, and another 3 spell pen from the draconic destiny. I believe there is some in fatesinger as well.

Re: Spell pen, I've found this to be pretty on the money. I traded a Toughness, and PL Wiz to see about pumping up my SP. Took full line of spell pen and still see more blue shields on EE than I'd like so for me, unless I go elf next life, I need 2 more wiz lifes AND close to full SP line(feats and some AP).

Back in the day when I hit E-deeps and OOB, it made me TR straightaway. On that toon I have hung out for a long time on 2nd life, feeling like a god on everything up to EH, and even some EE. But after Belly in the Beast, all those armies of orange drow Blademasters... I will be TRing 2 times more at the very least.