Whirling steel strike ideas

[Missing_Minds]

Dear me, "I like my character so it must be good!".
Dear me, more snide childish crude.

Let's see.

• +3 AB with longswords mentioned above but -4 TWF'ing penalties - handwraps win.
  I assume you are talking -4 from oversized weapons? Because a monk TWF should suffer the same penalty to hit just as any other TWF. Granted I could be wrong there. Won't be the first, and won't be the last.
• 15% critical profile compared to 5% on a monk but 10% attack speed difference
  -2 con vs -2 wis. And depending can create a ki generation issue.
• Stunning Fist DC can hit 60+ for EE even with 14 base wisdom (my 18 rogue/2 monk w/16 wisdom has 63 and still isn't finished)
  Lets see the gear list and math while staying in fire or wind stance, GmoF destiny, and no twists. And I say this without being snide, because I honestly don't think it can be done and I'd like to learn just how following those requirements.
• Longswords aren't better than handwraps anymore effect wise
  Generically, no disagreement. However, long swords offer more variety of combos as you can't combo handwraps.
• 2 feats that could instead be spent on something better
  Pure opinion.

Thought exercise ...
50 base damage/hit, 30 bonus effects.
(50*23/20+30*19/20)*102.2*1.8/60=264 DPS
(50*21/20+30*19/20)*111.3*1.8/60=270 DPS

Cool, handwraps in front even at the very lowest amount of gear without considering offhand strength etc. Everything you add from here will just see handwraps draw further and further in front while still having more utility (stunning fist), higher AB and being less feat dependent.

Flawed thought exercises are useless. They won't do the same base damage, you'd have to compare both stances equally, you don't explain the numbers so really all I have to say is cute meaningless numbers.

You are also completely missing the point of the OP. So beyond my personal curiosity, or if you would prefer, my education about how to get stunning fist up that high your spiel is useless.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Flawed thought exercises are useless. They won't do the same base damage, you'd have to compare both stances equally, you don't explain the numbers so really all I have to say is cute meaningless numbers.

You are also completely missing the point of the OP. So beyond my personal curiosity, or if you would prefer, my education about how to get stunning fist up that high your spiel is useless.

I read the OP, I replied with good advice - there's no way to justify WSS except for pure flavour, you disagreed, I corrected you.

Here, I'll correct you again.

Firstly, it's not "snide childish crude" to recognise and point out to you that it's difficult to be objective about our own characters; I'm doing you a favour, recognise its flaws and don't encourage others to make the same mistakes that you did.

No, unarmed has no TWF'ing penalties, 0, zilch, none. That puts unarmed at a higher AB than longswords.

Legendary Tactics is a level 1 twist in a neighbouring destiny to GMoF, it's about the easiest thing in the world to unlock and provides a crucial +6 to DCs. From there we have 10 base+12 levels+10 wraps+6 exceptional+6 legendary tactics+3 GMoF+13 wisdom=60. 14 base wisdom+3 tome+9 items (sunsoul set)+2 water stance+2 yugo+2 ship+4 GMoF=36. I'm just doing my best to hit 60 here, there's other ways to go about it and 60 isn't needed in almost all cases but there it is anyway.

Not having better things to do spend those 2 feats on on a 12 fvs/6 paly/2 monk? You're joking right?
TWF*3, IC:B, PA, Toughness, Stunning Fist = 7
Rogue dilettante from half-elf instead of human = 1 (+10.5 damage!)
Maximise = 1
Combat Expertise (for DoS prereq) = 1

And ... that's 9 feats which is all you get until epic. 2 epic feats can be ... quicken and improved sunder? Maybe try to fit in OC? Empower?

Lots of good options that I can see.

I'm sorry about the math, I just figured that after 24,000 posts on this board that you might have come across basic DPS calculations. Let me break it down for you:
(50 base damage*23 number of instances of damage every 20 hits including crits/20 hits+30 effects like sneak and pure good*19 number of instances of damage every 20 hits/20 hits)*102.2 attacks minute*1.8 offhand proc rate/60 seconds=264 DPS (damage per second)

Does that help? This is about as favourable as it's going to get, if we spend more time working out the details of gear and additions then longswords will fall further behind due to handwraps superior attack speed.

But hey, I've got time to kill as sick of playing at the moment with unstable client/windows install so let's have a go.
Taking your above build. 12 FvS/6 Paladin/2 monk fire stance build (as you mentioned), air for unarmed.

• 16 base strength+6 levels+3 tome+9 items (PDK or whatever)+1 adaptability+1 exceptional+2 yugo+2 ship+2 rage=42 strength (can adjust it if you like)
• Sunsoul set (+2 damage, reinforced fists, some doublestrike in wind stance)
• Shintao set (+2 damage)
• Grave Wrappings vs Oathblade
• GS LitII vs Alchemical air/water/air
• +13 SA from items
• Rogue dilettante
• Manslayer
• Holy burst ToD ring for unarmed
• +6 seeker
• Haste assumed (2 minute pots, GS clickies, time sensing goggles, party members ... not difficult at 20+)
• GMoF destiny with dancing with flames III, hail of blows, RwtW III, dance of flowers III
• Divine favour, power
• Fighting drow
• +2 damage with longswords

I think the above is easy to slot on either build but if you want to layout how your exact gear set is better and how it is impossible to get the same ads on an unarmed build then we can make the adjustment.

Doublestrike chance from sunsoul in wind stance: 111.3*1.885/60=3.496675 attacks/second so 5.7197 to make 20 attacks or halved for average time to proc after cooldown is over. 6*(10/((20/(111.3*1.885/60)/2+20)=2.624688% doublestrike or total of 1.9112 attacks per attack animation.

Grave Wrappings:
(3.5(3.5)+6+16+4+3+3)*21/20+(7+7+23.5)*19/20+6*4/20+5+10.5*2/20=89.3375/hit
89.3375*111.3*1.9112/60=316.7 DPS

Dual Oathblades:
(3.5(5.5)+6+17+4+3+3+2)*23/20+(4.5+7+23.5)*19/20+6*8/20+5+5+3.5*4/20=108.7375/hit mainhand
(3.5(5.5)+6+8+4+3+3+2)*23/20+(4.5+7+23.5)*19/20+6*8/20+5+5+3.5*4/20=98.3875/hit offhand
(108.7375*1.03+98.3875*.8)*102.2/60=324.84 DPS

Slight edge here which surprised me honestly but I don't mind being incorrect. The catch with Grave Wrappings is that most of their benefits don't relate directly to DPS; when you consider the benefit of stunning fist, temporary hit points, improved destruction and ~1 neg level every 3 seconds the 2.6% DPS advantage seems pretty inconsequential.

Dual GS LitII:
(3(5.5)+5+17+4+3+3+2)*23/20+(3.5+7+23.5)*19/20+6*8/20+5+(5.5+5.5)*4/20+9.15+14/20=109.825/hit
(3(5.5)+5+8+4+3+3+2)*23/20+(3.5+7+23.5)*19/20+6*8/20+5+(5.5+5.5)*4/20+9.15+14/20=101.575/hit offhand
(109.825*1.03+101.575*.8)*102.2/60=331.1 DPS

GS LitII+Alchemical good/air/air/air silver slotted longsword:
(3(5.5)+5+17+4+3+3+2)*23/20+(3.5+7+23.5)*19/20+6*8/20+5+(5.5+5.5)*4/20+9.15+14/20=109.825/hit mainhand
(3.5(5.5)+6+8+4+3+3+2)*23/20+(3.5+23.5)*19/20+6*8/20+5+(5.5)*4/20+9.15+15*3.5*.55/20=96.78125/hit offhand
(109.825*1.09+96.78125*.8)*102.2/60=335.8 DPS

Tinah does almost exactly the same damage as a LitII, more vs dragons of course. Not sure if I missed any other important weapons.

Alchemical silver/air/air/air +7 slotted handwraps:
(3.5(3.5)+7+16+4+3+3)*21/20+(3.5+7+23.5)*19/20+6*4/20+5+(5.5+10.5)*2/20+9.15+15*3.5*.55/20=98.20625
98.20625*111.3*1.945/60=354.33 DPS

There it is, once you get into the better weapons handwraps show a clear advantage (close to 5%). Alchemical weapons are more accessible than ever as you only need to run HN/EN/EH LoB to get all the pieces; about as accessible as doubleshard GS these days.

The small amount of smites that you get from paladin mostly favours longswords but the additional doublestrike from wind might balance things somewhat. Versatility: damage and action boost: damage from favoured soul favours handwraps. If you were to twist haste boost from Legendary Dreadnought the handwraps would jump ahead even more.

All on-hit effects that aren't crit reliant like sense weakness, freezing ice, 25% DR earth stance/sunsoul, manslayer etc all favour handwraps by a fair margin.

In GMoF it is quicker to generate an EiN with access to Stunning Fist.

Out of curiousity; how about vs zombies assuming DR 15/slash with just 10% fort bypass?
Wraps of Endless Night ML:20
(((3.5(3.5)+6+16+4+3+3)*(19+2*.15)/20)-15)+(10.5+3.5+7)*19/20+6*4*.1/20+5+(5.5+10.5)*2/20+5+7.65=67.02125/hit
67.02125*111.3*1.9112/60=237.6 DPS

Triple pos longswords
(3(5.5)+5+17+4+3+3+2)*(19+4*.1)/20+(3.5+7+21)*19/20+6*8*.1/20+5+(10.5+10.5)*4/20+14/20=89.05/hit
(3(5.5)+5+8+4+3+3+2)*(19+4*.1)/20+(3.5+7+21)*19/20+6*8*.1/20+5+(10.5+10.5)*4/20+14/20=80.32/hit offhand
(89.05*1.03+80.32*.8)*102.2/60=265.68 DPS

About a 10% difference (though without WSS you could just do the same with kamas and probably end up in front DPS wise in wind stance). The ML:24 WoEN which will be available soon might take them in front, not sure if the DR of EE Zombies goes above 15 or not.

And vs raid bosses with average 50% fortification:

GS LitII+Alchemical good/air/air/air silver slotted longsword:
(3(5.5)+5+17+4+3+3+2)*(19+4*.5)/20+(3.5+7)*19/20+(23.5)*.5*19/20+6*8*.5/20+5+(5.5+5.5)*4/20+9.15+14/20=92.4125/hit mainhand
(3.5(5.5)+6+8+4+3+3+2)*(19+4*.5)/20+(3.5)*19/20+23.5*.5*19/20+6*8*.5/20+5+(5.5)*4/20+9.15+15*3.5*.55/20=79.89375/hit offhand
(92.4125*1.09+79.89375*.8)*102.2/60=280.4 DPS

Alchemical silver/air/air/air +7 slotted handwraps:
(3.5(3.5)+7+16+4+3+3)*(19+2*.5)/20+(3.5+7)*19/20+23.5*.5*19/20+6*4*.5/20+5+(5.5+10.5)*2/20+9.15+15*3.5*.55/20=84.18125
84.18125*111.3*1.945/60=303.7 DPS

Or almost a 10% DPS difference in a raid situation.

So ... 2 more feats to do less damage when it matters (raids), have less utility when DPS doesn't matter (no stunning fist vs trash) on one of the best possible builds for WSS ...

I really wish I could be playing right now rather than pointing out the flaws in your character but it's not possible unfortunately. I probably should have compacted some of the additions but copy/paste was easy enough and it keeps it laid out so you can see the various figures and adjust them as necessary, feel free to point out any mistakes of course.

[Imatotalnoob]

I tried wss on a 3rd life rogue.
The plan was to sneak into a group a sneak attack everything

I quickly learnt that it is so broken
The animation spins twice but only one set of numbers come up
Then to make things worse there is a long pause before U can attack again

Someone said its working for monks with hand wraps only atm.
Anyway respecd to take cleave/greater cleave.

Much faster attacks and not breaking the attack chain
Oh btw im using twf heavy picks.
Crits were amazing! They are still nice with great cleave.

Cheers

[wax_on_wax_off]

I tried wss on a 3rd life rogue.
The plan was to sneak into a group a sneak attack everything

I quickly learnt that it is so broken
The animation spins twice but only one set of numbers come up
Then to make things worse there is a long pause before U can attack again

Someone said its working for monks with hand wraps only atm.
Anyway respecd to take cleave/greater cleave.

Much faster attacks and not breaking the attack chain
Oh btw im using twf heavy picks.
Crits were amazing! They are still nice with great cleave.

Cheers

You're thinking of Whirlwind Attack while this thread is about Whirling Steel Strike.

I can see why you chose your forum name

[voodoogroves]

First, WSS is flavor. You can make the best WSS you can, but recognize that you're behind the curve already.

My thought would be to work on a build that could take advantage of multiple weapon adders since that's one thing you'll have over handwraps - two weapons.

[Uhtred_Stark]

Wax - obviously I respect your ideas, yoiu have countless very good posts and I even copied your idea for a SD tank on the cheap build a while back. However the idea was never to compare WSS to wraps in pure dps, I never said or expected longswords to out dps wraps. I know wraps are better pure dps wise. You made some very detailed breakdowns of numbers, but what about the ancillary dps a FVS monk is causing in the interm? I guess you could argue a FVS/Monk could just use wraps and get the same benefits. However, with dual longswords you do get two weapon sets vs one of the wraps. One of the beautiful things about monk is that you can gear them so many different ways which to me is why I like the class, it isn't so Big Mac value meal gotta have this and this to taste yummy that a lot of other classes have.

This post was never supposed to be a wraps vs WSS debate. Does every build idea have to follow the same 5 or 6 paths on a quest to achieve maximum dps/awesomeness/game breaking boredom?

Feat wise I would argue that most FVS don't have anything constructive to do with their epic feats. You actually DO have two feats to waste, and you can't fit overwhelming crit in anyway even if skip wf slashing and WSS. I suppose you could, if you went human and stripped things to the bone, but its an Elf build, I know, gimped....

[wax_on_wax_off]

Wax - obviously I respect your ideas, yoiu have countless very good posts and I even copied your idea for a SD tank on the cheap build a while back. However the idea was never to compare WSS to wraps in pure dps, I never said or expected longswords to out dps wraps. I know wraps are better pure dps wise. You made some very detailed breakdowns of numbers, but what about the ancillary dps a FVS monk is causing in the interm? I guess you could argue a FVS/Monk could just use wraps and get the same benefits. However, with dual longswords you do get two weapon sets vs one of the wraps. One of the beautiful things about monk is that you can gear them so many different ways which to me is why I like the class, it isn't so Big Mac value meal gotta have this and this to taste yummy that a lot of other classes have.

This post was never supposed to be a wraps vs WSS debate. Does every build idea have to follow the same 5 or 6 paths on a quest to achieve maximum dps/awesomeness/game breaking boredom?

Feat wise I would argue that most FVS don't have anything constructive to do with their epic feats. You actually DO have two feats to waste, and you can't fit overwhelming crit in anyway even if skip wf slashing and WSS. I suppose you could, if you went human and stripped things to the bone, but its an Elf build, I know, gimped....

Depends on the build of course but generally doing less damage doesn't seem to be a good use for epic feats.

Hey, I agree, I dropped in to make a very clear statement that wraps are better which everyone knows already, I didn't see any reason to go into the whys and what fors but if someone is going to dispute it then I'm happy to defend my statements.

If looking at how useful a character is handwraps always win, stunning fist is just such a strong feat.

If looking at damage in situations and circumstances that matter then handwraps win too.

As long as everyone is clear on that then do what you like, just don't pretend things aren't the way they are.

[unbongwah]

However, with dual longswords you do get two weapon sets vs one of the wraps.

I think someone crunched the numbers to show you'd be better off sticking w/scimitars instead of WSS on a UC elf/HE FvS; better DPS w/out spending two feats (WF:S & WSS). [That or splurge a feat on khopesh; better DPS while only costing 1 feat.] That would be a viable alternative on a WIS-dumped FvS, esp. if you want to wear light armor for PRR & better AC.

On your FvS 12 / pal 6 / monk 2 idea, there's 11 feats (7 base + 2 monk + 2 epic): that's enough for Toughness, TWF x3, Imp Crit:Slash, Power Atk, Cleave & GC, Max, Quik, Overwhelming Crit. Take advantage of light vulnerability proc from AoV + Divine Sacrifice I from those pally lvls. Base stats on a 28-pt build: 16 / 15 / 14 / 8 / 8 / 12 (STR 18 on 34-pt); lvl-ups into STR.

Does every build idea have to follow the same 5 or 6 paths on a quest to achieve maximum dps/awesomeness/game breaking boredom?

No, but my view is if you're playing a melee (or ranged) build who sacrifices DPS, it should be because you bring something else to the table. Frankly WSS needs a huge buff before it's even worth considering, IMHO.

[Missing_Minds]

Wax, I honestly am not certain you really have corrected anything at all. I was talking one specific case where longswords would be compareable if not optimal to handwraps. The real way to do the comparison would be to use idental and with minimal gear as possible as gear can only move it higher. So it should only be based on race, classes, and non magical standard weapons. Gear can always make one thing better than another, hence why such should not be included to figure out the intrinsic value of what is at hand.

That TWF did not have offhand penalties, that was a suprise as I've always assumed it did. I knew that it did not suffer off hand strength and that it was... 10-13% faster in attack rate as I recall. I forget the exact number. I won't disagree that would help the AB to put it normally higher, but once you add in the racial and class bonus for long sword, the long sword ends up higher as was evident by actual practice. I could hit high AC creatures more reliable with longswords than handwraps. Another thing also is range, some people have issues with the range of handwraps. Long swords do have better reach. (yes, non sequiter.)

I agree it is not being snide or childish to correct someone, but your opening statemnt and patronizing tone is most deffinatly snide and childish.

Don't be sorry about the math, but I always avoided those type of posts for the most part beause I didn't like thoe tone that was normally assocated with it. And when I don't know something I ask. Your base damage number I don't agree with, but that is besides the point. Why did you use 23 for # of instances of damage? Shouldn't that be less than 20 given you have off hand proc rate added in later. And doesn't that also assume that ALL off hands were hits by that formulation?
Or is it becaue it is greater than 19 (you miss on a 1), was a result of assumption of doubletrike? If so, aren't you assuming you'll double strike 4 times then? Given you are only basing it on the # of attacks per minute and not a set number of attacks, is that even accurate to do so? It doesn't sound like it.

And actually you'd have to do fire and wind in both sword and wrap to be more objective. But besides the point.

Most of the calculations you did are pointless without doing equivelant weapons. However, on the mabar wrap one, did you include the burst of light damage (radiant blast? Is that what is is called? I can't rememeber) I didn't see it listed or if you did, I missed how you put it in. And using 2 T2 Mournlode unslotted long swords may be a better match.

You made this statement. "In GMoF it is quicker to generate an EiN with access to Stunning Fist."
How? I don't have a GMoF completed so I lack play experiance. You only generate more Ki on critical where helplessness is not an auto crit any more. Or did they make it back then such that helpless is the same as a critical for Ki generation? I've never paid attention because I've never lacked Ki.

Ick about the install. That is never fun.


OP I do appologize for the continuation of the threadjacking.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Wax, I honestly am not certain you really have corrected anything at all. I was talking one specific case where longswords would be compareable if not optimal to handwraps. The real way to do the comparison would be to use idental and with minimal gear as possible as gear can only move it higher. So it should only be based on race, classes, and non magical standard weapons. Gear can always make one thing better than another, hence why such should not be included to figure out the intrinsic value of what is at hand.

That TWF did not have offhand penalties, that was a suprise as I've always assumed it did. I knew that it did not suffer off hand strength and that it was... 10-13% faster in attack rate as I recall. I forget the exact number. I won't disagree that would help the AB to put it normally higher, but once you add in the racial and class bonus for long sword, the long sword ends up higher as was evident by actual practice. I could hit high AC creatures more reliable with longswords than handwraps. Another thing also is range, some people have issues with the range of handwraps. Long swords do have better reach. (yes, non sequiter.)

I agree it is not being snide or childish to correct someone, but your opening statemnt and patronizing tone is most deffinatly snide and childish.

Don't be sorry about the math, but I always avoided those type of posts for the most part beause I didn't like thoe tone that was normally assocated with it. And when I don't know something I ask. Your base damage number I don't agree with, but that is besides the point. Why did you use 23 for # of instances of damage? Shouldn't that be less than 20 given you have off hand proc rate added in later. And doesn't that also assume that ALL off hands were hits by that formulation?
Or is it becaue it is greater than 19 (you miss on a 1), was a result of assumption of doubletrike? If so, aren't you assuming you'll double strike 4 times then? Given you are only basing it on the # of attacks per minute and not a set number of attacks, is that even accurate to do so? It doesn't sound like it.

And actually you'd have to do fire and wind in both sword and wrap to be more objective. But besides the point.

Most of the calculations you did are pointless without doing equivelant weapons. However, on the mabar wrap one, did you include the burst of light damage (radiant blast? Is that what is is called? I can't rememeber) I didn't see it listed or if you did, I missed how you put it in. And using 2 T2 Mournlode unslotted long swords may be a better match.

You made this statement. "In GMoF it is quicker to generate an EiN with access to Stunning Fist."
How? I don't have a GMoF completed so I lack play experiance. You only generate more Ki on critical where helplessness is not an auto crit any more. Or did they make it back then such that helpless is the same as a critical for Ki generation? I've never paid attention because I've never lacked Ki.

Ick about the install. That is never fun.


OP I do appologize for the continuation of the threadjacking.

I think using easily accessed level 20+ gear is a reasonable starting point for comparison and "best" weapons provides valuable contest to how gear changes the comparison (which is an important quality of handwraps).

The attack speed difference of handwraps compared to longswords changes based on the amount of alacrity bonuses you have. It starts at about 11% but as you add more bonuses the difference becomes greater.

Handwraps do always have a higher AB than longswords assuming an equal enhancement on each. Iirc, you have +3 attack for longswords (weapon focus, fire stance, fvs) but -4 penalty, handwraps have 0 (and you could use a spare feat for WF:B if desired). It's difficult to be objective about how often we hit when comparing weapons ... often we'll think that we hit more often or do more damage with the weapon we like more. I remember an arcane archer who swore that she got slayer arrows 25% of the time, for instance.

I'm not an expert on weapon range but iirc handwraps have the longest reach from what I've seen from other knowledgeable posts. I know that there was an issue at one point that has since been fixed in one of the more recent updates.

The 23 comes from a longswords critical profile. If you attack 20 times with a longsword you'll have 1 miss, 15 normal hits and 4 hits for double damage. 15+4*2=23, then divide that number by 20 for damage/attack. You can see when it gets down to fortification situations that I change it to 19+4*.5/20 as 4 times there is a 50% chance due to fortification of extra damage.

All of doublestrike and offhand attacks etc is added in the second calculation which takes the damage per attack and converts it into damage per second using first the proc rate of secondary attacks and then the attack speed per minute (as provided in vanshilars attack speed index).

I tried to choose weapons that were as equivalent as possible. Grave Wrappings and Oathblades are about as easy as eachother to get. If anything I favoured the longswords as it would certainly take longer to make 2 longswords than it would to make 1 handwrap if using GS/alchemical. Mournlords are rubbish, nobody uses them so who would care about the comparison?

It's not about Ki for GMoF but the amount of moves that you have available to hit the 25 cap. If trying to prepare an EiN before stepping into an EE quest on the ship only drifting lotus, scattering of petals and stunning fist is available. The first 2 have long cooldowns and cost a lot of Ki. If in a quest and trying to generate an EiN before a big fight I usually cycle the 10 Ki base ability and Stunning Fist, with 2 meditates and the replenish Ki ability and I can just manage this in a reasonable time frame. Overall it's not a big deal either way, you'll make do but it was one point among many.

Radiant Blast on Mabar wraps is described in the wiki as providing +7.65 damage/hit which is added to the end.

In terms of DPS if you stick non-magical gear on each the longswords will win. However, as you add gear to each the handwraps catch up and eventually surpass longswords. DPS wise it's worth considering that most trash you attack with handwraps will be helpess (+50% damage) or have fortification (an auto-win for wraps except vs zombies).

In terms of usefulness and appropriateness handwraps start out in front due to an AB advantage and remain in front due to Stunning Fist.

[Missing_Minds]

I think using easily accessed level 20+ gear is a reasonable starting point for comparison and "best" weapons provides valuable contest to how gear changes the comparison (which is an important quality of handwraps).
I agree and disagree because what is easy for one person is not so for another.

The attack speed difference of handwraps compared to longswords changes based on the amount of alacrity bonuses you have. It starts at about 11% but as you add more bonuses the difference becomes greater.
Alacrity bonus? Are you meaning BAB in this instance or actual "melee alacrity" bonus?

Handwraps do always have a higher AB than longswords assuming an equal enhancement on each. Iirc, you have +3 attack for longswords (weapon focus, fire stance, fvs) but -4 penalty, handwraps have 0 (and you could use a spare feat for WF:B if desired). It's difficult to be objective about how often we hit when comparing weapons ... often we'll think that we hit more often or do more damage with the weapon we like more. I remember an arcane archer who swore that she got slayer arrows 25% of the time, for instance.
Actually I watched my dice. Same roll value didn't hit for handwraps but did for long swords. I also took oversized TWF which probably helped out with my case. I really wish myddo worked for the character (still lists it as a lvl 1 wizard human).

I'm not an expert on weapon range but iirc handwraps have the longest reach from what I've seen from other knowledgeable posts. I know that there was an issue at one point that has since been fixed in one of the more recent updates.
Standing still? No, handwraps have the worst. Moving an who the frack knows given client server positining. if I am moving I'll break the box behind the kobold even though the kobold is what I have hard targeted and am aiming for. Doesn't matter the melee weapon I use.

The 23 comes from a longswords critical profile. If you attack 20 times with a longsword you'll have 1 miss, 15 normal hits and 4 hits for double damage. 15+4*2=23, then divide that number by 20 for damage/attack. You can see when it gets down to fortification situations that I change it to 19+4*.5/20 as 4 times there is a 50% chance due to fortification of extra damage.
Ah, ok. that makes sense. Thank you.

It's not about Ki for GMoF but the amount of moves that you have available to hit the *snip*
So.. wait. The attack of stunning fist also adds to your count? I though it was just the 3 (or is it 4?) attacks that were in GmoF.

In terms of DPS if you stick non-magical gear on each the longswords will win.
This is how my mind has been treating it. Once you start to add in specialized gear to trick out the character, then it all depends upon build and gear. If you do not build it for it, then no it won't. Per you, and my agreement, we are both correct then about long swords.

In terms of usefulness and appropriateness handwraps start out in front due to an AB advantage and remain in front due to Stunning Fist.

I agree with the conditionality of your statement.
In the case of my build, I'm still darn tempted to switch to scimitars but a things have kept me with long swords.
1. The want/need to change from monk to rogue (then the primary destiny would become either Sentinal or juggernaut) having PRR would be nice. I'd never be centered so why stick with monk? I'm just too darn scared about losing the ED xp I've already built up.
2. Hope that maybe one day they'd have a very valid holy avenger. I've got the VoD sword but a HA should be useable at low levels also.
3. I'd miss the handwraps for undead skeletons/rusties/oozes.

[AtomicMew]

No one in the game uses non magical gear at cap. It's a silly and pointless comparison.

Handwraps are vastly superior, it's just how it is.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I agree with the conditionality of your statement.
In the case of my build, I'm still darn tempted to switch to scimitars but a things have kept me with long swords.
1. The want/need to change from monk to rogue (then the primary destiny would become either Sentinal or juggernaut) having PRR would be nice. I'd never be centered so why stick with monk? I'm just too darn scared about losing the ED xp I've already built up.
2. Hope that maybe one day they'd have a very valid holy avenger. I've got the VoD sword but a HA should be useable at low levels also.
3. I'd miss the handwraps for undead skeletons/rusties/oozes.

MotU gear is easy for everyone, you can run the quests on normal and get it. Hence why Grave Wrappings vs Oathblades is a fair comparison, IMO. Grave Wrappings are easier to get really as they can be bought off AH.

Double share GS and T3 Alchemical weapons just involve doing the quest over and over but not much in the way of actual challenge, the only real issue with this comparison is that longswords require twice as much work.

All bonuses to attack speed including BAB, haste and haste boost all benefit handwraps more than longswords. At level 1 it's 80/minute for weapons, 85 for unarmed iirc and goes up from there. At 20 it's ~11%, once you add haste boost and haste the difference goes up to 12 or 13% iirc but haven't made any direct comparisons.

What is your feat list?

I'm 95% certain tha the tested attack ranges of weapons puts handwraps as the longest reach. This is counter intuitive I know but with this in mind I've started to stand further back on raid bosses like lob and it seems to pan out. Even with the horrible client experience I have at the moment I have no issue stunning mobs that are basing other people, very easy once you get the hang of it.

Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm add to the count.

Non magical weapon comparisons is silly though, don't you think? It would be okay if toons scaled equally with additional gear but this isn't the case. Handwraps, tempest and many other qualities only become worthwhile damage wise once you add gear as that is just how they scale. Mind you, other qualities about these keep them useful at low levels (mainly their effectiveness vs 100% fort which is prevelant while leveling).

Sword of Shadows is another example; on a 8 strength toon it's a very lame weapon but once you add 80 strength it becomes the best weapon in the game due to the way it scales.

Maybe try out the handwraps thing, grave wrappings are cheap or easy to farm, feats swaps are free to get stunning fist and IC:B isn't needed, you might be pleasantly surprised.

[Uhtred_Stark]

I have decided to dump the cleric build idea mainly because I don't want a cleric icon and the bias and/or responsibilities that go with it. Seems there is more open minded grouping with the FVS and people are used to melee combo builds with the FVS. So that narrows the choice down to the 18/2 fvs/monk or the 12 FVS split. My feat list I've drawn up looks something like this....

1 WF slashing
1 TWF (starting with monk)
2 WSS
3 Toughness
6 Maximize
9 ITWF
12 PA
15 Quicken
18 GTWF
21 IC Slash
24 whatever

If going with the 12 FVS split and substituting 6 fighter instead of 6 Paladin gives 4 more feats. Those would be cleave, great cleave, overwhelming critical, wp specilization longsword, and the other feat instead of whatever would be dodge (for the stalwart defender PRE, though it would have to be taken earlier, probably in the PA attack slot). So it's more HPs and overwhelming crit vs Paladin saves, lay on hands and divine favor/sacrifice. Missing, did you put all of your level up points into STR?

If I was going the 18 FVS or 12 FVS/fighter split I would probably go with (34 pt build)
17 Str
15 Dex
15 Con
8 Int
11 Wis
8 Cha

If I were doing the paladin split I would drop Con to 14 and increase Cha to 11. I could also drop STR to 16 in both versions and have a 14 Wis which might be preferable? I have +2 tomes in everything but wisdom where I have a +3.

unbongwah - I am pretty much set on longswords to try out the fvs and elf enhancements with them and I have never used longswords in the game before while I have played a couple scimitar builds. Don't get me wrong, I really like scimitars, just trying something different.

[Missing_Minds]

MotU gear is easy for everyone, you can run the quests on normal and get it. Hence why Grave Wrappings vs Oathblades is a fair comparison, IMO. Grave Wrappings are easier to get really as they can be bought off AH.

Actually I want to get two Oathblades, but I've only gottten... 5 more PDK comms since picking up the gloves. As for grave wrappings, I've tried to farm them and got sick of it. And the AH prices when I last check had them between 500k and 1,000k plat. Not worth it to me as I'm not that overly freaking abundantly loaded with plat.
Note also my loot luck sucks.

Double share GS and T3 Alchemical weapons just involve doing the quest over and over but not much in the way of actual challenge, the only real issue with this comparison is that longswords require twice as much work.
It does, and it also requires being able to find groups that run it fairly regularly to get materials. That has sort of only happened for me recently. I am NOT in a powerhouse of a guild.

What is your feat list?
all 3 TWF, quicken, extend, empower, toughness, oversised twf.
Monk feats were WF:slashing and WSS.
Crud... I can't remember what my last feat was. Not that I think it would make much more of a difference in this now.


I'm 95% certain tha the tested attack ranges of weapons puts handwraps as the longest reach. This is counter intuitive I know but with this in mind I've started to stand further back on raid bosses like lob and it seems to pan out. Even with the horrible client experience I have at the moment I have no issue stunning mobs that are basing other people, very easy once you get the hang of it.
Interesting. I wonder if it changed after release. Because it deff was not as long as a long sword for example. And while I had no issues playing it because I already adjusted my style to get in mob faces, my wife utterly complained about handwrap reach on a halfing.

Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm add to the count.
Thank you. I did not know that.

Non magical weapon comparisons is silly though, don't you think?
It is and it isn't. "my weapon does 1d6 fire, that one does 1d6 light" Oh, better add more numbers to the calculation! Yeah.. makes no sense when it is even like that. You really should only need to add things that would change. Burst effects? Sure. But in such cases might as well just use maiming to have it "equal".
Note that the effects of stunning, crippling, etc. Those are effects that should be taken into account as well. But how is stunning worked in? Pre stunning dps and post stunning dps? I honestly do not know what the forum experts decided on how to handle that.


Sword of Shadows is another example; on a 8 strength toon it's a very lame weapon but once you add 80 strength it becomes the best weapon in the game due to the way it scales.
That is its crit profile for you and they should be included, but we aren't comparing differences of strength here. But it does make me wonder just how much having 10/20/30 strength could change things. I'm not asking you to do the math though unless you are that bored.
The reason why I wonder that is doing dex builds and the current AC/PRR changes. Have they become viable now or still suffer the same issues. My guess is the changes really haven't helped their viability.

Maybe try out the handwraps thing, grave wrappings are cheap or easy to farm, feats swaps are free to get stunning fist and IC:B isn't needed, you might be pleasantly surprised.

I'm not going to because I'm sick of trying to farm them, let alone that isn't part of this build. And if the build is to be changed, it would be losing monk for rogue and going scimitars.

And no, Wax, what you've been teaching me isn't going to be going to waste either. Once I'm pretty hopeful that LRs aren't risky (and I'm very sorry to hear it happened to you. To think so many forumites got upset when I said "there is a chance") my monk was going to be changed from the fire build she is to water for the better DCs. That has been the plan pre this thread, but what I twist in is going to be different.
Just a personal thing with my characters, I don't like them to "fight" the same. I want them different so I have to recall different playstyles/quirks so I won't get utterly bored.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I'm not going to because I'm sick of trying to farm them, let alone that isn't part of this build. And if the build is to be changed, it would be losing monk for rogue and going scimitars.

And no, Wax, what you've been teaching me isn't going to be going to waste either. Once I'm pretty hopeful that LRs aren't risky (and I'm very sorry to hear it happened to you. To think so many forumites got upset when I said "there is a chance") my monk was going to be changed from the fire build she is to water for the better DCs. That has been the plan pre this thread, but what I twist in is going to be different.
Just a personal thing with my characters, I don't like them to "fight" the same. I want them different so I have to recall different playstyles/quirks so I won't get utterly bored.

In the case of handwraps vs longswords though adding 1d6 fire or light to each is a worthwhile thing to mention as handwraps get ~10% extra damage from such an effect due to their faster attack speed. That's not much but when you add all the effects up it adds up and is the reason handwraps are such a competitive DPS weapon.

Yes, it's basically impossible to compare things like stunning and crippling. In this case though it's reasonably easy to notice that you can stun continuously with handwraps but you can't with longswords, that's a lot of damage left on the table right there.

The point with the SoS was just that gear doesn't scale equally among different comparisons so it's rarely appropriate to draw conclusions from a nonmagical weapon comparison unless what is being compared scale linearly (2 longswords builds without any special abilities of note).

I don't like my characters to fight the same either and ended up slightly grumpy for a long time that I ended up with 2 unarmed characters and 2 casters. Thankfully I've all but put up the handwraps on my archer so it's less noticeable now but I'm still going to do my next life on my archer as an SoS swinging WF CleaveSorc just for a change of pace.

[Missing_Minds]

In the case of handwraps vs longswords though adding 1d6 fire or light to each is a worthwhile thing to mention as handwraps get ~10% extra damage from such an effect due to their faster attack speed. That's not much but when you add all the effects up it adds up and is the reason handwraps are such a competitive DPS weapon.

*sigh* you are absolutely right on that. I utterly forgot about rate with additional equal effects. Thanks for being patient and coming up with a different wording to make my dense head realize why.

[Sydril]

I built a human pure shintao monk wielding longswords on Thelanis with the following focuses:

300-400% healing amp
50+ Kukan do DC (you can use the shintao tier 3 ranged stun effect with longsword)
Alchemical and Greensteel longswords (usually dual lit2s and a variety of multiple effect sword - stun / vertigo for example)
Void IV
Usually in ultimate fire stance, occasional earth
40+ umd

This build manages to keep up with most of the end game monks in my guild, just a little behind but its quite a multipurpose powerhouse.

I've read a long list of "my way or the highway" posts about flavor builds and most of them aren't even remotely true.