The Force Savant - An Alternative for Sorcs

[Ushurak]

Hopefully the Devs will take note of this thread and maybe pass it along to someone that could make it a viable option somewhere in the near future.

The Force Savant.

There are many nice spells that run off of force and there are some cross over spells the can run off of force or its appropriate element type (Ice Storm, Meteor Swarm).

Instead of giving the Force Savant uber cheap SLA's (Arch-mages have most of the force SLA's wrapped up already We do not want to make a Sorc carbon of a wizzie), make an over all SP % cost reduction for force-based spells at Force Savant I, II and III. Each Savant tier would give you an ever increasing reduction in SP cost for your line of spells.

Also, you could make the Force enhancements (only for Force Savants though) power-up non-enchant/illusion based CC spells such as web and grease.

Maybe even give increasing Improved Metamagics for free at certain tiers.

Their are so many things that could be done with this with just a small amount thought and I think it would be a GREAT option to the Elemental-Based Savant that already exist.

Any additional (preferably constructive) additions tweaks to this idea is most welcome.
We obviously do not want something way overpowered..we just want a viable alternative to the Elemental Savant... and maybe something we haven't seen yet.

[goodoldxelos]

Sorry i have to disagree with you. Like you mentioned this is called an evocation Archmage, and it creates a nice seperation between the classes.

Turbine needs to finish the other prestige classes and complete the enhancement update before anything new is implemented.

[Ushurak]

Sorry i have to disagree with you. Like you mentioned this is called an evocation Archmage, and it creates a nice seperation between the classes.

Turbine needs to finish the other prestige classes and complete the enhancement update before anything new is implemented.

Complete difference in an Archmage evoker and a Savant. Also, an force SLA is the only thing that even makes any similarities between the two and an SLA does not a Savant make. Also, an Archmage evoker has nothing that powers up force spell other than basic enhancements which any arcane class including Artificer can do.

I'm talking about a class based prestige line specifically geared for force...just like the Savants have one for fire/water/earth/air. Wizzies also get prestige lines for Necro/Enchant/Evoke/Conjuration/etc. so there really should be no complaint about a force line prestige.

The biggest difference between Wizzie and prestige lines is that Wizzies have it WAYYYY better in the fact that they can essentially get 2 different prestige lines and get free sla's from both and power up both essentially giving them SUPREME mastery over TWO focus classes while Sorcs are stuck with only elemental damage at the cost of losing power in an opposing element...Wizzies get absolutely zero power nerf from any spell area.

It is kind of absurd that a Wizzie could essentially do almost the same dps as a Sorc...this should not even be remotely true, but factor in ED and if a Wizzie wanted to go Evoker/Conjurer (probably wouldn't happen but it could) then not only would you have a DPS Wizzie but you would have it with the absolute cheapest sp cost in the game.

I am not knocking Wizzies, I myself have a AM Enchanter/Evoker and I love him...this is just a call to give the sorcs a little more option and alot a bit more work around in the nuking department...which btw is supposed to be their specialty...so let's make it special.

[goodoldxelos]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer

Enjoy the reading!

[Mastikator]

Force is more of a wizard's game.
I'd rather see Sorcerer bloodline prestige enhancements (dragon and fey, elemental already being covered).

[Ushurak]

Force is more of a wizard's game.
I'd rather see Sorcerer bloodline prestige enhancements (dragon and fey, elemental already being covered).

This would be fine as well.

[Dexxaan]

Sorry i have to disagree with you. Like you mentioned this is called an evocation Archmage, and it creates a nice seperation between the classes.

Turbine needs to finish the other prestige classes and complete the enhancement update before anything new is implemented.

There. Fixed it for ya.

Once Clerics and the rest of the classes have at least 2 options+ to follow. THEN I would still be hard pressed to agree with Sorcs having a 5th option.

And the Force Option seems to be Wizard territory IMO anyway.


.

[licho]

It dont sounds as exiting. And the listed perks are kinda boring. Also force is for me not a part of Sorcerers.
Elements fits, since its close to dragon heritage.

Im far more interested in Acolyte of the Skin, since it may be linked to deamon blodline or fey.
So this will be far more exotic.

[fmalfeas]

It dont sounds as exiting. And the listed perks are kinda boring. Also force is for me not a part of Sorcerers.
Elements fits, since its close to dragon heritage.

Im far more interested in Acolyte of the Skin, since it may be linked to deamon blodline or fey.
So this will be far more exotic.

Dragon Heritage?

Red/Gold - Fire
Blue/Bronze - Lightning
White/Silver - Ice
Green/Copper - Poison
Black/Brass - Acid
Amethyst - Force
Crystal - Light
Emerald - Wind
Sapphire - Sonic
Topaz - Dehydration
Shadow - Energy Drain
Deep - Flesh Dissolving Gas

And there are still more dragons, like Mercury, Yellow, Brown...

[Jaid314]

There. Fixed it for ya.

Once Clerics and the rest of the classes have at least 2 options+ to follow. THEN I would still be hard pressed to agree with Sorcs having a 5th option.

And the Force Option seems to be Wizard territory IMO anyway.


.

having 4 options for elements is not really 4 prestige enhancements. i understand you want to have more options for clerics, but... please don't spread nonsense about how sorcerers have tons of variety because they have 4 PrE options.

[fmalfeas]

Also, there's a prestige class in tabletop for Force specialists. Argent Savant.

I'm not the biggest fan of it, even though I love Force spells.

[Ushurak]

Dragon Heritage?

Red/Gold - Fire
Blue/Bronze - Lightning
White/Silver - Ice
Green/Copper - Poison
Black/Brass - Acid
Amethyst - Force
Crystal - Light
Emerald - Wind
Sapphire - Sonic
Topaz - Dehydration
Shadow - Energy Drain
Deep - Flesh Dissolving Gas

And there are still more dragons, like Mercury, Yellow, Brown...

See...Force is not only viable...it would stick with the lore as well....ty...I probably should +1 this...yep...I will.

[soulaeon]

Not signed. We finally have clear distinctions between the two classes, as there should be, and doing this would muddy the waters again.
If you like force damage, make a wizard, or pick up some force spells with your sorcerer and take the Shiradi destiny. I honestly can not see how this would add anything new or practical to DDO.

I'm talking about a class based prestige line specifically geared for force...just like the Savants have one for fire/water/earth/air. Wizzies also get prestige lines for Necro/Enchant/Evoke/Conjuration/etc. so there really should be no complaint about a force line prestige.

See...Force is not only viable...it would stick with the lore as well....ty...I probably should +1 this...yep...I will.

So, why dont we have a negative energy savant? And how would you work out a "flesh dissolving gas" and "energy drain" savant?

[Xezrak]

I don't see why not, fighters use ESoS so do barbs oh no!

If it does get implemented will be in the very long run (I am guessing that have already worked out all the Pres for the enhancement overhaul).

Good idea though

/signed to OP

[Ushurak]

Not signed. We finally have clear distinctions between the two classes, as there should be, and doing this would muddy the waters again.

[[There has (at least in the 4 years I have played) always been a distinction.]]

So, why dont we have a negative energy savant? [[Palemaster]] And how would you work out a "flesh dissolving gas" [[Earth Savant...it's called cloud kill and acid fog]] and "energy drain" savant? [[Palemaster]]

Yet again....there is NO force prestige AT ALL...Wizzies have NO FORCE PRESTIGE! They merely get force based SLA's which doesn't make force a Prestige...being an Arch mage doesn't make there force spells more powerful nor add to the CL. They do not obtain a special "force enhancement" that other prestiges or Arcane classes can not get....just SLA's.

This would be the equivalent of giving a Fire Savant the SLA's but absolutely ZERO power-up for fire...it wouldn't make them Savant's...it would make them cheap casters. My Wizzie doesn't cast his SLA force spells because they do some kind of extra damage that no one but an evoker mage can match...he casts them because they are cheap DPS...they surely are not the most powerful spells he has...just cheap...he saves his SP for the Dancing Ball, Mind Fog, Symbol of Death, Cloud Kill rotation.

If you don't like the idea of a force savant that is just fine...but your logic is somewhat faulty as to why.
When I don't like something because I can't see how it would be truly beneficial yet I can't give a good explanation as to why I just leave it at "Hey, I don't like the idea." Sometimes no explanation makes more sense than a bad one.

[Ushurak]

I don't see why not, fighters use ESoS so do barbs oh no!

If it does get implemented will be in the very long run (I am guessing that have already worked out all the Pres for the enhancement overhaul).

Good idea though

/signed to OP

Agreed, I actually wouldn't want to see it for a couple updates or so because there is plenty that needs fixing and nerfs that need to be rolled back before they start working on "new classes" or "class types".

I do however think that something like this should come out before anymore new classes come out though...it wouldn't bother me if no new classes came out for years to come...just improve on what we already have, which would also give a nod in the direction of those that have worked tirelessly to obtain completionist. As soon as a new class comes out they are forced to run two more TR lives,...and in some cases those lives are utterly miserable depending on what the class is and what flavors that player doesn't like.

Let them hang on to the "completionist" title for a meaningful amount of time and work on what is already there but not quite perfect yet or needs improvement or needs more options...like the ARti.

[Mastikator]

Dragon Heritage?

Red/Gold - Fire
Blue/Bronze - Lightning
White/Silver - Ice
Green/Copper - Poison
Black/Brass - Acid
Amethyst - Force
Crystal - Light
Emerald - Wind
Sapphire - Sonic
Topaz - Dehydration
Shadow - Energy Drain
Deep - Flesh Dissolving Gas

And there are still more dragons, like Mercury, Yellow, Brown...

Lets stick to the more common chromatic and metallic dragons, shall we?
Also, dragons are more than just an element, the many of the metallic dragons have non-elemental breath weapons. Brass Dragons can breathe a cone of Sleep instead of fire. Bronze dragons can breathe gas of repulsion. Copper dragons can breathe Slow gas. Gold Dragons can breathe weakening gas. Silver dragons can breathe paralyzing gas.
IMO it'd be more interesting to give Sorcerers that take dragon bloodline prestige more combat- and breath-weapon oriented abilities than just more spell power in an element.
Like this http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeCl...onDisciple.htm
Breath weapon, wings, natural attack, natural armor, bonus to strength, con and intelligence.
Sorcerers already have elemental options, why not give them more arcane and combat options?

[Ushurak]

Lets stick to the more common chromatic and metallic dragons, shall we?
Also, dragons are more than just an element, the many of the metallic dragons have non-elemental breath weapons. Brass Dragons can breathe a cone of Sleep instead of fire. Bronze dragons can breathe gas of repulsion. Copper dragons can breathe Slow gas. Gold Dragons can breathe weakening gas. Silver dragons can breathe paralyzing gas.
IMO it'd be more interesting to give Sorcerers that take dragon bloodline prestige more combat- and breath-weapon oriented abilities than just more spell power in an element.
Like this http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeCl...onDisciple.htm
Breath weapon, wings, natural attack, natural armor, bonus to strength, con and intelligence.
Sorcerers already have elemental options, why not give them more arcane and combat options?

Thanks for the link...this is a great concept and it looks like it could easily be implemented into DDO.

[stoerm]

There are only a handful of construct types resistant to force and nothing is immune to it. I can't see how to avoid this being way overpowered, and even so it could impact game balance in unexpected ways. There would be no disincentives, no give and take. Just spam one spell.

As said above, fix and add other PREs first.

[Ushurak]

There are only a handful of construct types resistant to force and nothing is immune to it. I can't see how to avoid this being way overpowered, and even so it could impact game balance in unexpected ways. There would be no disincentives, no give and take. Just spam one spell.

As said above, fix and add other PREs first.

Make them weak in ALL elemental spells?
Make them weak in Enchantment style CC so they can't CC and then spam force the dancing/held mobs?
There are plenty of ways to give them important penalties...it just takes creativity...but yes, I do agree that there are other things that need to be fixed prior to coming out with anything new...no argument on that point at all.