How to know if you should join an elite-bb pug

[blametroi]

How do you know if you should join an “elite-bravery bonus” PUG?

It’s the weekend, you have hours to play, Turbine isn’t running any festivals or epic XP boosts, so it looks like a good time to make progress leveling your latest project. The LFM panel is working and there are a lot of groups up. But, how do you know if you should join an elite-bb PUG?

Or hard?

This isn’t about the “Wizard King speed farm/be able to solo a side” groups. This is about a run of the mill elite-bb pug.

Short answer-a quick rule of thumb:

If the quest can be run solo, or with a single hireling, can you do so at one difficulty level lower? IE, Level 8 quest run at level 10 elite, can you solo it on hard at level 9 or 10?

If the quest can’t be soloed, can you honestly say you could survive in significant parts of the quest alone?

If your answers are no, then you aren’t ready for an elite-bb PUG.

Long answer-a checklist:

This isn’t about catching a ride on the TR train of people you know, it’s about joining a random pug and contributing, or at least not hindering. There are a bunch of little questions that, when answered, can tell you if you’re ready for the train ride and won’t make it a train wreck. Answering “no” to many of these is an indicator you probably aren’t ready.

It doesn’t mean you’ll never be ready, but you have work to do.

My checklist for knowing if you’re elite-bb ready?

• Is my constitution at least 14? Or 16 for melee?
• Am I on at least a 32 point build? If I’m playing a Drow, are there good reasons for doing so besides “I just unlocked it and Turbine says they’re really that cool”?
• Am I wearing a level appropriate fortification item? Moderate fortification at level 5, heavy fortification by level 11?
• Am I wearing items boosting both constitution and my primary stat?
• Am I wearing a level appropriate false life item?
• Do I know where the quest giver is? The quest entrance? Have I run it more than once before?
• Do I have stacks of curatives and restoratives? If I’m likely to die, do I have raise/res scrolls to compensate the divines for resource usage?
• If I’m on a class with a traditional role (healer, tank, crowd control), am I willing and able to fill that role when the group hits a big fight?
• If I’m on a trapper, can I and will I stay behind or disarm traps in advance for XP bonus? Do I have +5 tools and level appropriate disable items?
• Do I have at least partial DR breakers for the quest? DR matters long before you meet Harry in the Shroud. E.G., ghostly skeletons in Delera’s require good aligned weapons on elite or you won’t hurt them.

Discussion:

There’s no twink gear mentioned in the checklist. It isn’t needed for leveling. Sure, it can help, but more as a lubricant than a deciding factor.

I think there’s room for flavor builds in an elite-bb pug. It’s OK to play outside of role. If you’re a pure DPS rogue, let the party leader know. Do the same on an offensive caster FVS. Ship buffs mitigate a lot of damage and free up mana for offense.

But please do this before you get in the quest.

On many quests and in many groups, this won’t be a problem. On others it will matter. For example, if you are on a pure DPS rogue with unreliable trapping skills and there’s a PUG up for Tomb of the Shadow Knight looking for a rogue to fill the last spot, don’t join. Trapping is a big part of the quest and you’re not a good fit.

Then again, if you didn’t already know this, you probably shouldn’t be trying to join an elite-bb pug for Tomb of the Shadow Knight ☺

[MrChipinator]

There are a plethora of flaws within this, I'm not sure what you're trying to do with it either...


I can guarantee you I have *MAYBE* two of these things at any given level, on either of my TR's. The only thing you need to worry about when doing Elite BB is if you have a caster that knows how to nuke. Everything else is flavor.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Can you bring something to the party?
Do you feel like running elite?

Other then answering yes to those 2 I'de say you're overthinking it.

[Lonnbeimnech]

My checklist looks more like this

Am I bored of soloing
Do I need that quest on elite

[Syllph]

My checklist looks more like this

Am I bored of soloing
Do I need that quest on elite

Yeah that's about mine too. I add is there a shrine in the quest to raise dead?

All that other garbage in the OP is just fluff. It's Elite: some people die, shrine, quest finishes, and you get XP. It's not really more complicated than that.

[Enoach]

I actually disagree with many of your points

• Is my constitution at least 14? Or 16 for melee?
While I agree that HP provide a buffer that help you survive, your Constitution is not a deciding factor on if you are Elite Ready. With HP all you need is one more HP than what you would loose in each encounter


• Am I on at least a 32 point build? If I’m playing a Drow, are there good reasons for doing so besides “I just unlocked it and Turbine says they’re really that cool”?
While most Elite Bravery Bonus runs are done by TR'd characters (34/36 builds) 28 Point builds are just as capable of running Elite, yes they will have a few less points spent in "Extra" stats, but by no means does it mean they can't do the quest at that difficulty

• Am I wearing a level appropriate fortification item? Moderate fortification at level 5, heavy fortification by level 11?
Fortification is nice to have and reduces crit damage. Fortification is a good way to show "Self Preservation". But even this is not a determining factor on if your ready for Elite.

• Am I wearing items boosting both constitution and my primary stat?
Elite is tougher than normal, so yes a caster would want their primary casting stat boosted as much as possible, however also having appropriate gear such as a focus item or damage enhancement item would help as well

• Am I wearing a level appropriate false life item?
False life helps boost HP, while not a bad thing, not really a requirement for if your ready to run Elite

• Do I know where the quest giver is? The quest entrance? Have I run it more than once before?
Now this one I can agree with you. When joining any elite pug group, you have to understand there are basic expectations. One of these expectations is you know what your getting into and the other is you know where to go

• Do I have stacks of curatives and restoratives? If I’m likely to die, do I have raise/res scrolls to compensate the divines for resource usage?
All quests there is a possibility of dying, however you should always be working to prevent it (avoid stupid death). Reimbursing a divine is a nice gesture, a better one is to avoid being a sponge.

• If I’m on a class with a traditional role (healer, tank, crowd control), am I willing and able to fill that role when the group hits a big fight?
Elite runs work best when everyone leaves their "mine's bigger than your's attitude in the Lobster Pits and use their resources for the quests completion

• If I’m on a trapper, can I and will I stay behind or disarm traps in advance for XP bonus? Do I have +5 tools and level appropriate disable items?
Keep in mind that elite traps have a bit more bite then hard and normal, disarming traps is an XP bonus up to +15%, very few groups would be upset with +15%.

• Do I have at least partial DR breakers for the quest? DR matters long before you meet Harry in the Shroud. E.G., ghostly skeletons in Delera’s require good aligned weapons on elite or you won’t hurt them.
This goes back to my earlier comment, Know what to expect


For me these are the basics for running elite

1. Know What to expect - DR breakers, extra gear in case of breakage, self preservation kit (healing potions and other forms of self healing)
2. Party "Help" kit - anything that could help a fellow member out of Incap. Including Bracers of Assistance.
3. Know where the quest is, it is still ok to ask for a share to help save time, it is also ok to clarify House etc.
4. Be willing to follow instructions

[Random20]

• Is my constitution at least 14? Or 16 for melee?

Agreed

• Am I on at least a 32 point build? If I’m playing a Drow, are there good reasons for doing so besides “I just unlocked it and Turbine says they’re really that cool”?

Completely disagree. The forums and game are filled with 28 point builds that work perfectly fine.

• Am I wearing a level appropriate fortification item? Moderate fortification at level 5, heavy fortification by level 11?

Agreed mostly. Definitely agree with heavy fort asap, but not sure how absolutely necessary moderate fort is for a level 5.

• Am I wearing items boosting both constitution and my primary stat?

Agreed

• Am I wearing a level appropriate false life item?

Not agreed. Would be preferable but not game breaking. False life is the least important consideration imo after your primary stats, con, + damage, heavy fort, etc.

• Do I know where the quest giver is? The quest entrance? Have I run it more than once before?

Definitely preferable, but not absolutely necessary. If I see a LFM up for a quest that I don't know then I try to at least skim the wiki quickly.

• Do I have stacks of curatives and restoratives? If I’m likely to die, do I have raise/res scrolls to compensate the divines for resource usage?

Preferable. I should do this more.

• If I’m on a class with a traditional role (healer, tank, crowd control), am I willing and able to fill that role when the group hits a big fight?

Agreed

• If I’m on a trapper, can I and will I stay behind or disarm traps in advance for XP bonus? Do I have +5 tools and level appropriate disable items?

Agreed, probably

• Do I have at least partial DR breakers for the quest? DR matters long before you meet Harry in the Shroud. E.G., ghostly skeletons in Delera’s require good aligned weapons on elite or you won’t hurt them.

Agreed

Although I agree, at least partially with most of what is said here and the the OP did say that this didn't apply to "zerg, byoh, know it, have a clue" LFMs, the list still -seems- to assume (and I'm assuming in return) that running elite quests and preserving BB is still some sort of elite player only activity, which isn't correct. e.g. the 28 point "discrimination".

More important than anything else on the list and it isn't mentioned at all is to communicate your particular situation to the group leader before you join. e.g. "never run this before, is it cool to still join?"

If the group leader decides to let you in after your explanation, then they're expected to explain before hand what you should expect. e.g. "ton of mobs behind this door, put down some cc and then I'll open it." or "save this shrine for later."

If they say "no" for whatever reason after your explanation, so be it. If they say "no" and are being rude about it, no loss to you.

[Gkar]

Short answer-a quick rule of thumb:

If the quest can be run solo, or with a single hireling, can you do so at one difficulty level lower? IE, Level 8 quest run at level 10 elite, can you solo it on hard at level 9 or 10?

Bad and arbitrary test in my books.

• Am I on at least a 32 point build?

Wow your logic is getting worse by the moment. How do you think people completed these quests on elite before 32 pt builds existed or when half the builds on the server were 28pt?

• Am I wearing a level appropriate false life item?

Or...are you wearing a better item for your build because while false life is always great to have, 15HP will not make the difference between success and wipe in most instances.


I got bored at this point, while many of the things you say are items people should strive for, your tests are outright BS on 90% of the non epic elite content.

[blametroi]

There are a plethora of flaws within this, I'm not sure what you're trying to do with it either...

It's a guiding checklist, from my perspective. But, questions like this have come up in discussions I've had so I took time to write it out.

As for what I'm trying to do with it ... share and provoke discussion. I learn from discussion. There's a long reply that I particularly like. My process is to throw an idea out and see how it holds up.

[TrinityTurtle]

You forgot the most important part of epic elite readiness.

Am I willing and able to actually work with a team, and analyze the situation and not just go on remote control expecting to do what I always do regardless of what is going on?

While this sound seriously trite, this is what has been routine wiping my ee groups when they fail. People aren't thinking and just trying to do it on autopilot because 'that's how it was done before!'.

Yesterday we wiped on a Trial by Fury. Party had split up as some people were havnig troulbe with a jump to get where we were going, three people were lagging. Bard and artificer (Me) were dealing with the named spider at the second chest, and had her on the web ramp and were taking her while be careful not to agg the spider waves til we were done and caught up. It was under control, slow going, but with just her and us we were good. Sorc comes up behind us, jumps over us, jumps over the named, and aggs the waves wiping the quest. When asked why "That's how we always do it! You have to kill the spiders!" There was clearly NO actual thought put into the current sitatuation, just an autopilot "Oh I'll go get the spiders" response. He didn't have a bad attitude, he was very apologetic, and I would play with him again, but it's a good example of the point I want to convey.

Saturday in ee rusted blades we had a barbarian who clearly had only ever run with a nuker sorc of some kinda and spent most of the quest running for his life in circles, or standin trying to block with a shield. His build was great, he had over a thousand hit points, fort, you name it, he just didn't DO anything helpful as a player. We didn't wipe that one, but it could have gone badly. Imagine my surprise when the matron who was NEXT to the barb (I coudln't see the shield or blocking, I was behind him) beelined strait for me. The minute I saw her move I got on the bookcase to shoot her out of reach instead of my usual spot, adapting to the situation. I lived, took her down. Barb STILL didn't hit her even with her agg firmly on me and had a while of free shots. LOL In the next quest, peoploe just blindly started hitting fascinated mobs, and were outraged when not only did that mob hit them back, but the enitre room was no non-cc'd. I guess everyone assumed they were held monstered or something. But they kept doing it ever room, even after the party leader called out which one to take one at a time. No attempt at changing tactics.

EE Jungles of khyber. Mage went in on an off destiny. No problem, I get that it's a lot of xp. However, he continued to play as if he was in his main destiny and his tactics were working, and they weren't. Nothing was dying, and he kept agging more and more yelling in to the mic that he knew what he was doing when we asked him to stop and help us deal with the now four groups of drow he'd pulled on us while he was going to get five, and then six. He had the entire drow tunnels between shrine on and 2 on our head, constnatly wailing and getting nothing. No attempt to try cc or any other spells. I managed ot heal the party through that, admittedly cranky, when he DOES IT AGAIN wtih teh beholders. So instead of one at a time we have the entire room on us. Wipe, and he turns around and ragequits blaming us.

LOL I could go on, but I think those are enough examples. GIve me a gimp toon with a smart player ANY day. And people, realize that waiting for a nuker caster to do all the work for you is a really bad idea. We routinely play without them at all, and succeed when we keep it in the guild and freinds we trust to work together cleverly.

[Tobril]

My take on BB LFM?

Don't. Ever.

Do it yourself or stick to your server's TR channels.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

How do you know if you should join an “elite-bravery bonus” PUG?

How do you know if you sound like a total jerk?

When you post "no newbs", but go out of your way to frame it as a checklist and discussion.

[blametroi]

I actually disagree with many of your points

• Is my constitution at least 14? Or 16 for melee?
While I agree that HP provide a buffer that help you survive, your Constitution is not a deciding factor on if you are Elite Ready. With HP all you need is one more HP than what you would loose in each encounter


• Am I on at least a 32 point build? If I’m playing a Drow, are there good reasons for doing so besides “I just unlocked it and Turbine says they’re really that cool”?
While most Elite Bravery Bonus runs are done by TR'd characters (34/36 builds) 28 Point builds are just as capable of running Elite, yes they will have a few less points spent in "Extra" stats, but by no means does it mean they can't do the quest at that difficulty

• Am I wearing a level appropriate fortification item? Moderate fortification at level 5, heavy fortification by level 11?
Fortification is nice to have and reduces crit damage. Fortification is a good way to show "Self Preservation". But even this is not a determining factor on if your ready for Elite.

• Am I wearing items boosting both constitution and my primary stat?
Elite is tougher than normal, so yes a caster would want their primary casting stat boosted as much as possible, however also having appropriate gear such as a focus item or damage enhancement item would help as well

• Am I wearing a level appropriate false life item?
False life helps boost HP, while not a bad thing, not really a requirement for if your ready to run Elite

• Do I know where the quest giver is? The quest entrance? Have I run it more than once before?
Now this one I can agree with you. When joining any elite pug group, you have to understand there are basic expectations. One of these expectations is you know what your getting into and the other is you know where to go

• Do I have stacks of curatives and restoratives? If I’m likely to die, do I have raise/res scrolls to compensate the divines for resource usage?
All quests there is a possibility of dying, however you should always be working to prevent it (avoid stupid death). Reimbursing a divine is a nice gesture, a better one is to avoid being a sponge.

• If I’m on a class with a traditional role (healer, tank, crowd control), am I willing and able to fill that role when the group hits a big fight?
Elite runs work best when everyone leaves their "mine's bigger than your's attitude in the Lobster Pits and use their resources for the quests completion

• If I’m on a trapper, can I and will I stay behind or disarm traps in advance for XP bonus? Do I have +5 tools and level appropriate disable items?
Keep in mind that elite traps have a bit more bite then hard and normal, disarming traps is an XP bonus up to +15%, very few groups would be upset with +15%.

• Do I have at least partial DR breakers for the quest? DR matters long before you meet Harry in the Shroud. E.G., ghostly skeletons in Delera’s require good aligned weapons on elite or you won’t hurt them.
This goes back to my earlier comment, Know what to expect


For me these are the basics for running elite

1. Know What to expect - DR breakers, extra gear in case of breakage, self preservation kit (healing potions and other forms of self healing)
2. Party "Help" kit - anything that could help a fellow member out of Incap. Including Bracers of Assistance.
3. Know where the quest is, it is still ok to ask for a share to help save time, it is also ok to clarify House etc.
4. Be willing to follow instructions

Good stuff. Thanks for the thoughtful discussion.

[squishwizzy]

I'm confused as to what seperates a elite BB PUG from a PUG that runs everything on elite. Most PUGs I join want to do everything on elite (with the exception with epics where they run predominatly EH) because no one wants to break their streak, or they want to get the XP bonuses for running it on elite.

The 32-point build thing: that's just plain nonsense. Unless you're doing XP/min runs or straight-up Zergs, 28-point builds work just fine. It is a matter os using what you have for maximum effectiveness.

And trappers moving on ahead to disable the traps (which I generally do anyways)? Again, this depends on whether you're in a team-oriented PUG, or an XP/min or straight zerg pug. Traps are generally an afterthought in those situations.

[Coyopa]

I'm confused as to what seperates a elite BB PUG from a PUG that runs everything on elite.

These are the same thing. Just disregard the entire thread, really. The OP is a bunch of rubbish. Really, all you "need" to make success the likely outcome in an elite quest at level is a willingness to work as a team and either:

1. You know what you're doing.

2. You're willing to take instruction and learn.

Mostly, intelligent play and working together will get you through.

[LightInDark]

My checklist looks more like this

Am I bored of soloing
Do I need that quest on elite

This or did they ask me to help / run with them.

Nothing else matters

[TBot1234]

How do you know if you should join an “elite-bravery bonus” PUG?

It’s the weekend, you have hours to play, Turbine isn’t running any festivals or epic XP boosts, so it looks like a good time to make progress leveling your latest project. The LFM panel is working and there are a lot of groups up. But, how do you know if you should join an elite-bb PUG?

Or hard?

This isn’t about the “Wizard King speed farm/be able to solo a side” groups. This is about a run of the mill elite-bb pug.

Short answer-a quick rule of thumb:

If the quest can be run solo, or with a single hireling, can you do so at one difficulty level lower? IE, Level 8 quest run at level 10 elite, can you solo it on hard at level 9 or 10?

If the quest can’t be soloed, can you honestly say you could survive in significant parts of the quest alone?

If your answers are no, then you aren’t ready for an elite-bb PUG.

Long answer-a checklist:

This isn’t about catching a ride on the TR train of people you know, it’s about joining a random pug and contributing, or at least not hindering. There are a bunch of little questions that, when answered, can tell you if you’re ready for the train ride and won’t make it a train wreck. Answering “no” to many of these is an indicator you probably aren’t ready.

It doesn’t mean you’ll never be ready, but you have work to do.

My checklist for knowing if you’re elite-bb ready?

• Is my constitution at least 14? Or 16 for melee?
• Am I on at least a 32 point build? If I’m playing a Drow, are there good reasons for doing so besides “I just unlocked it and Turbine says they’re really that cool”?
• Am I wearing a level appropriate fortification item? Moderate fortification at level 5, heavy fortification by level 11?
• Am I wearing items boosting both constitution and my primary stat?
• Am I wearing a level appropriate false life item?
• Do I know where the quest giver is? The quest entrance? Have I run it more than once before?
• Do I have stacks of curatives and restoratives? If I’m likely to die, do I have raise/res scrolls to compensate the divines for resource usage?
• If I’m on a class with a traditional role (healer, tank, crowd control), am I willing and able to fill that role when the group hits a big fight?
• If I’m on a trapper, can I and will I stay behind or disarm traps in advance for XP bonus? Do I have +5 tools and level appropriate disable items?
• Do I have at least partial DR breakers for the quest? DR matters long before you meet Harry in the Shroud. E.G., ghostly skeletons in Delera’s require good aligned weapons on elite or you won’t hurt them.

Discussion:

There’s no twink gear mentioned in the checklist. It isn’t needed for leveling. Sure, it can help, but more as a lubricant than a deciding factor.

I think there’s room for flavor builds in an elite-bb pug. It’s OK to play outside of role. If you’re a pure DPS rogue, let the party leader know. Do the same on an offensive caster FVS. Ship buffs mitigate a lot of damage and free up mana for offense.

But please do this before you get in the quest.

On many quests and in many groups, this won’t be a problem. On others it will matter. For example, if you are on a pure DPS rogue with unreliable trapping skills and there’s a PUG up for Tomb of the Shadow Knight looking for a rogue to fill the last spot, don’t join. Trapping is a big part of the quest and you’re not a good fit.

Then again, if you didn’t already know this, you probably shouldn’t be trying to join an elite-bb pug for Tomb of the Shadow Knight ☺

Hmmm. This post really made me think. My gut reactions:

Some of the things you mention are worth including in a guide for new players, but many are not.

While newer players should do all they can to learn about the game and improve their skills, it doesn't always happen.

I don't think that meeting the criteria in your checklist would guarantee completions on Elite difficulties. I enjoy running quests with people who have not done them before, but I get it if this isn't your thing.

I could be wrong, but it sounds like your playstyle and philosophy are such that you might prefer solo/guild/channel friend play more than PUGs on Elite.

If you don't want new and inexperienced players joining your LFM,consider picking a few appropriate qualifying statements from the following list, which should help scare away some people you might want to exlcude: "no bads, be more than scaling, no noobs, don't suck, be useful, BYOH, be self-sufficient, no hirelings, know it, TRs only, be able to solo a part, experienced players only, zerg, do what you're told, know your way to the quest, in progress, don't die, follow instructions, fast completions, pass me X item if it drops for you, already started, know a puzzle, etc." Oh, and you can filter them other ways too.

[SirValentine]

The OP is a bunch of rubbish.

Really, all you "need" to make success the likely outcome in an elite quest at level is a willingness to work as a team and either:

1. You know what you're doing.

Of course, that's exactly the same thing the OP said, except with more detail.

I don't necessarily accept every point as exact gospel, but as a rough guideline for newer players, it's not bad. If you know enough to quibble about something particular in the OP, you probably do know what you are doing.

[dennisck2]

While I don't necessarily agree with everything in OP, I do agree with most of it. The fact that someone would even consider checking this list shows me they care enough to contribute. You can post the all you need is 'blah and blah' if you want. And you're right. It is all you NEED. But to make things more efficient for the party doing the BB quest, you should have most if not all of this. Most folks who run these quests want them done as efficiently as possible. If you're the only one not being efficient, then you are dragging the party down.*

*I do training runs on my server to help people learn quests. I also try to help new people out with items. But a new player with no gear and no game knowledge shouldn't be doing elite quests. But if they do, this list is a great thing for them to consider. Just my 2 cents. And +1 OP. Thanks for taking the time to write it up and for inviting conversation/other points of view.

[Coyopa]

Of course, that's exactly the same thing the OP said, except with more detail.

I don't necessarily accept every point as exact gospel, but as a rough guideline for newer players, it's not bad. If you know enough to quibble about something particular in the OP, you probably do know what you are doing.

No, it is not the same thing, except with more detail. I've run elite for bravery on all my first life toons since they introduced bravery (and three TR's as well) and I can tell you that I didn't bother with anything other than potions, a party (or hireling), and appropriate weaponry (ghost touch, righteous/pure good, etc). I certainly didn't bother with fortification until level 14 at the earliest.

As far as being concerned about where the quest giver and quest entrance are, anyone can find those - even someone who doesn't know the quest. The original post is still worthless, even if you think I said the same thing they did without all the detail.