Why Take 3 FS past lives?

[Ushurak]

... you want to finger priestess.....

This is all I really got out of this

[Kinerd]

So I have one person saying they can be a strong offensive caster and you are saying no way...
I know my FS can be an offensive caster but after playing my Sorc for so long, I found the FS to be lack-luster in the way of offensive casting which is why I turned him into a self-healing/buffing TWF. If the Cleric spells are the same as FS then you are probably correct; but like I said, I have never played a Cleric so I am only going off of what you guys are telling me.

EDIT: My apologies, nobody said that a Cleric could be a "strong offensive caster"...I had to go back and look...they said "viable offensive caster" which is two different things...I do understand that alot of their "offensive" comes from a single spell...BB.

You've got it. Cleric/FvS arsenal are identical, and although their PrEs don't change much (not near to the extent that arcane PrEs do) the FvS is slightly better suited to offensive casting. Throw in the FvS advantage in SP, and you will be pulling your hair out with a cleric. It's not that gimpy in the grand scheme of things, but compared to a sorc? Woof!

Good point...maybe I will get the larger investment in spell pen from the 3 Wizzie pl and then go back to my final life Sorc and let it ride.

I think you will be very happy with this decision.

[varusso]

You've got it. Cleric/FvS arsenal are identical, and although their PrEs don't change much (not near to the extent that arcane PrEs do) the FvS is slightly better suited to offensive casting. Throw in the FvS advantage in SP, and you will be pulling your hair out with a cleric. It's not that gimpy in the grand scheme of things, but compared to a sorc? Woof!I think you will be very happy with this decision.

Both Cleric and FVS are very powerful offensive casters. They are also good at CC, if you have built for it and selected the correct spells. They dont have the variety of offensive spells that an arcane does, but thats because their primary spell (BB) covers virtually everything. Only a couple things in the game have any sort of resistance at all to BB, as it is non-elemental damage. Its only real disadvantage is that you have to kite through it as opposed to being able to turtle up in it, so evasion mobs can sometimes be a PITA if you dont have the DCs for it, as can mobs that dont like to chase you. On the flip side, this makes them ideal for zerging through a dungeon, a trail of BBs in their wake and lots of dead bodies. In Heroic content, they absolutely pwn stuff, hands down. And since we are talking about TRing just for past lives, we are talking about heroic leveling here, not epic.

Cleric has an advantage over FVS early on. Low and mid-level quests are stuffed with undead. The radiant bursts and actual turn undead ability on a cleric lets them destroy undead with ease -- not to mention mass cures. This serves them quite well until they have sufficient SP and levels to swap over to BB kiting. It also gives them free heals that they can use even if they arent "healbotting", bursting at chokepoints or running with auras on and letting party members top up while moving from fight to fight.

Mid to late levels you swap to BB of course, slipping in cometfall/firestorm, etc. as needed and greater command for solid CC. Add in their couple of death spells, and both divines rock the quest. As with everything else, its more about the player knowledge and skill than anything else. Played well, a divine can sub in for an arcane just fine in terms of killing potential.

I love my arcanes -- they are my favorite classes. But my divine lives were much more fun than I expected. The only suck part, really, was the very low levels, as the only real choices are melee or healbot. Past that, they are gold.

[Kinerd]

Like I said, the crucial point is "compared to a sorc". A sorcerer can CC a huge portion of trash just with Web, Dance, and Halt Undead. 90%? 95%? I'd just be making up a number, but there are few exceptions. A divine's arsenal just doesn't measure up. You can be the most skilled player in the world, but a painter can't do as much with only burnt ochre paint. It's a question of palettes.

Same story with DPS: Blade Barrier is great, no question, and stacks up pretty well with Ice Storm OR Wall of Fire OR Acid Rain... but it clearly can't stack up with all three. Divine Punishment stacks up pretty well with EES OR NBC... but clearly not with both. Nuking isn't even worth discussing.

Certainly an individual's divine can be more useful than another individual's arcane, but that same player would be even more effective on an equally well-built arcane. That's the only point I'm making.

[varusso]

Same story with DPS: Blade Barrier is great, no question, and stacks up pretty well with Ice Storm OR Wall of Fire OR Acid Rain... but it clearly can't stack up with all three.

Yes it can. It is typeless damage and does not suffer from resistance reduction, unlike all of those elemental spells. Now if you mean a single BB cant stack up vs a single arcane casting all three of those spells at the same time -- again, yes it can, given that very few players are going to have all three of those elements maxed out. Not to mention the cost of casting 3 max/emp spells as opposed to one. A zerging evoker divine demolishes content just with BB. Anyone who has played one or seen one in action knows this.

Divine Punishment stacks up pretty well with EES OR NBC... but clearly not with both. Nuking isn't even worth discussing.

Again, both spells have damage reduction (or even complete invulnerabilites). The two spells combined will outweigh a DP (assuming there are no reductions involved) but casting both also costs more. A fully powered DP whoops mobs and we all know it. Only a handful of mobs have any sort of light damage reduction.

Certainly an individual's divine can be more useful than another individual's arcane, but that same player would be even more effective on an equally well-built arcane. That's the only point I'm making.

Having played both sides, I can say that arcanes have a slight advantage in terms of versatility when it comes to elemental damage -- if a mob is weak vs an element, then an arcane can exploit that more easily than a divine. But in terms of overall damage, a divine can stack up just fine against them, as well as being able to bring a serious heal battery into play.. While an arcane has an advantage in terms of variety when it comes to CC, the divine's arsenal has everything they need. G.Command will put most mobs on their butts. Cometfall will do the same and comes with a damage component.

The real point here is that a divine evoker is not by any means a slogfest. If you want to zerg through to soft-cap and TR, it is every bit as efficient as an arcane evoker. It just requires adjusting the playstyle a bit. The only thing I really miss on a divine zerger is Haste on tap

[wax_on_wax_off]

If you're going to have a legendary sorcerer then try to be able to do more than just nuking. Symbol of Death and Energy Drain are awesome spells that will often do more damage to high HP mobs than regular nukes but need spell pen to land. With 7+ lives there's no reason a Sorc can't have that awesome nuking power but also be able to CC most EE with a variety of spells and debuffs, even if you need a little assistance from a monk/tactics fighter/archer/divine/warchanter.

Hell, even a first life sorcerer can hit 52 spell pen iirc with necromancy or enchantment in magister destiny with max twists as long as you can fit SF:Necro or ench.

The best thing about PLs isn't doing one thing better but doing multiple things well. So far on my 6th archer I've tanked elite VoD, healed EH DA and half CC'd EE DQ1, oh, and I do okay damage too

[Ushurak]

Yes it can. It is typeless damage and does not suffer from resistance reduction, unlike all of those elemental spells. Now if you mean a single BB cant stack up vs a single arcane casting all three of those spells at the same time -- again, yes it can, given that very few players are going to have all three of those elements maxed out. Not to mention the cost of casting 3 max/emp spells as opposed to one. A zerging evoker divine demolishes content just with BB. Anyone who has played one or seen one in action knows this.

Again, both spells have damage reduction (or even complete invulnerabilites). The two spells combined will outweigh a DP (assuming there are no reductions involved) but casting both also costs more. A fully powered DP whoops mobs and we all know it. Only a handful of mobs have any sort of light damage reduction.

Having played both sides, I can say that arcanes have a slight advantage in terms of versatility when it comes to elemental damage -- if a mob is weak vs an element, then an arcane can exploit that more easily than a divine. But in terms of overall damage, a divine can stack up just fine against them, as well as being able to bring a serious heal battery into play.. While an arcane has an advantage in terms of variety when it comes to CC, the divine's arsenal has everything they need. G.Command will put most mobs on their butts. Cometfall will do the same and comes with a damage component.

The real point here is that a divine evoker is not by any means a slogfest. If you want to zerg through to soft-cap and TR, it is every bit as efficient as an arcane evoker. It just requires adjusting the playstyle a bit. The only thing I really miss on a divine zerger is Haste on tap

Yeah, I have played through a Human FS already but I don't play him much now that he is lvl 25...it gets hard remembering that they really do not need as many DPS spells as a Sorc does. 2 primary spells and a couple fo secondary is all they really depend on...plus wings...BB plus wings really is boss as long as no one is with you screaming "SLOW DOWN, YOU'RE CAUSING A RED ALERT!" or "HEAL ME!"

[SirValentine]

the FvS is slightly better suited to offensive casting. Throw in the FvS advantage in SP, and you will be pulling your hair out with a cleric.

On the other hand, if you liked Wizard for versatility but found the spell selection limitations on a Sorc irritating, you'll more likely enjoy a Cleric and be pulling your hair out with a FvS.

Also, if you like be offensive instead of healing, Cleric has the advantage there, too. Turn on your aura, done. "If you want healing, stand in the aura!" FvS actually have to do that tedious casting individual healing spells thing.

[Ralmeth]

My advice: If it doesn't sound like fun (which is the impression I get from your OP), then don't do it. This is after all...a game.

[count_spicoli]

Huh? cleric more offensive than fvs. I will never play cleric again. My fvs is so much more fun to play. More dmg to bb's and dp's, wings, more hp, melee dmg bonuses, shoulder cannon(that puts out amazing light) and of course DOUBLE THE SP!. You have so much sp that casting healing mixed in with dps is of no consequence. My cleric first lifer(granted this is pre destinies) had 2200 sp. My fvs has 4100. I can heal kill and just about anything else have no sp issues.

As far as fvs compared to sorc for dmg and leveling. Difference is that 1-11 is tough on evoker build and not on sorc. Past that they are the same basically with fvs maybe getting the nod in the fact the bb has no resistance and earlier insta kills with slay living being level 5. And for self healing fvs can pick any race that doesnt have wis reduction and sorc is warforge for really easy healing and maybe helf or something else that you have to work in umd. But overall for 1-20 or even 25 EH the sorc is god. Epic Elite i would prob take wizzy over both is built to max spec.

[mobrien316]

I have some silly advice... if the past lives don't sound enjoyable to you, don't do them.

This.

If you don't like playing levels 1-20 then you shouldn't TR.

[sgz]

You can always try 1 FVS life and see if that's fun for you.
I've leveled a non-TR FVS and it was a pretty nice run (20 WF FVS LoB melee build). In the middle of doing a 2nd one now (that's how much fun it was doing the first one).

I'm also almost done with my main caster FVS TR (20 Human FVS Evoker/5 Exalted Angel).
If I was going to rely on just my evoker TR experience, I don't think it was as fun a run as my melee version. Given the required stat spread, I wasn't able to include viable melee capability so I was more reliant on spells.

I finished a Sorc life just prior to this FVS one, and the differing leveling speed between the two classes is night and day, from Levels 1-11. Levels 12-18 were about the same (some quests faster for the FVS). Levels 19-20 is again where you see a difference due the higher number of quests where mobs are static (ie dont move around as much so BB kiting is not as effective) or start using Death Ward more often.

Having now experienced two different FVS styles, I have a pretty good idea of how I'm approaching my 2nd FVS TR to make it more enjoyable. At least 1-2 FVS lives is pretty much a "nice to have", depending on the content you'll want to do once you're done. Let's take a look at a quick break down:

20 Base Caster level
5 Epic
8 (Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen, Epic Spell Pen)
3 (Enhancement)
3 (Item) (+2 more?)
6 (Wiz Past Life)
2 (FVS Past Life)
- - - - -
47

Now depending on Destiny and twists, you can get an additional 2-8. So that 1-2 spell pen you get from the FVS lives can be made up by the ED and twist choices you make. Getting that 1-2 extra TRs may give you the freedom to twist in other stuff (like DC boosters) so the relevance will really depend on what options you want and whether or not that extra life can be made fun (I rate the fun factor higher :P )

[Ushurak]

You can always try 1 FVS life and see if that's fun for you.
I've leveled a non-TR FVS and it was a pretty nice run (20 WF FVS LoB melee build). In the middle of doing a 2nd one now (that's how much fun it was doing the first one).

I'm also almost done with my main caster FVS TR (20 Human FVS Evoker/5 Exalted Angel).
If I was going to rely on just my evoker TR experience, I don't think it was as fun a run as my melee version. Given the required stat spread, I wasn't able to include viable melee capability so I was more reliant on spells.

I finished a Sorc life just prior to this FVS one, and the differing leveling speed between the two classes is night and day, from Levels 1-11. Levels 12-18 were about the same (some quests faster for the FVS). Levels 19-20 is again where you see a difference due the higher number of quests where mobs are static (ie dont move around as much so BB kiting is not as effective) or start using Death Ward more often.

Having now experienced two different FVS styles, I have a pretty good idea of how I'm approaching my 2nd FVS TR to make it more enjoyable. At least 1-2 FVS lives is pretty much a "nice to have", depending on the content you'll want to do once you're done. Let's take a look at a quick break down:

20 Base Caster level
5 Epic
8 (Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen, Epic Spell Pen)
3 (Enhancement)
3 (Item) (+2 more?)
6 (Wiz Past Life)
2 (FVS Past Life)
- - - - -
47

Now depending on Destiny and twists, you can get an additional 2-8. So that 1-2 spell pen you get from the FVS lives can be made up by the ED and twist choices you make. Getting that 1-2 extra TRs may give you the freedom to twist in other stuff (like DC boosters) so the relevance will really depend on what options you want and whether or not that extra life can be made fun (I rate the fun factor higher :P )

Well, like someone said earlier, I do want my Sorcbot to be the best it can be and I did play through a Human FS and had fun, my only regret being that I didn't make him a WF (he was my 1st non-WF build).
I HAVE been wanting to play a LoB.
With 3 Sorc and 3 Wizzie lives it should be easy button and I will probably thank myself when it is over and I come back to my final Sorc life.

I guess I will try it through at least one life...I can always opt to not do any more if I really find it grindy.

So now I guess I have to find an easily acquired greatsword for my higher level lives.
I don't feel like grinding out a greensteel GS just to shelve it when it is all over.

I guess I should check into the Cannith Challenge weapons...don't need anything epic...won't be staying at 20 long enough.

[Anthios888]

Great point about cleric lives, especially if you rely on acid or other conjuration spells. Or you're a nuker druid.

Also don't forget that just because you do ok on spell pen today, it won't be today forever. If you care about being the best (and given the number of past lives done already, it sounds like you do) then you prepare not just for today but tomorrow and on into the future.

Likewise, a TR project isn't something that has to be done all in one spurt. Do a couple, and once you're burned out, enjoy your power at endgame for a while. And when you start itching for a change of pace, you can always go back and play through the past lives that have diminishing returns.

Everything helps, but the game is not actually designed around having 25 past lives. Do what's fun.

In an MMO, there's never going to be a "finish line." Your character will just keep getting better over the years if it is beloved.

[Kinerd]

Yes it can. It is typeless damage and does not suffer from resistance reduction, unlike all of those elemental spells. Now if you mean a single BB cant stack up vs a single arcane casting all three of those spells at the same time -- again, yes it can, given that very few players are going to have all three of those elements maxed out. Not to mention the cost of casting 3 max/emp spells as opposed to one. A zerging evoker divine demolishes content just with BB. Anyone who has played one or seen one in action knows this.

Resistances are quantitative, enhancements are quantitative. Kiting is qualitative: BB absolutely requires it, arcanes absolutely do not. Range is qualitative: BB absolutely has to be cast on the caster, arcanes absolutely do not. These are important differences that become very apparent for "anyone who has played" them.

Again, both spells have damage reduction (or even complete invulnerabilites). The two spells combined will outweigh a DP (assuming there are no reductions involved) but casting both also costs more. A fully powered DP whoops mobs and we all know it. Only a handful of mobs have any sort of light damage reduction.

Divines get 80 spell power, arcanes get 100. There are plenty of Thaumaturgy staves with Cold Mastery, I haven't seen one with Light Mastery. The resistances aren't a big deal.

Having played both sides, I can say that arcanes have a slight advantage in terms of versatility when it comes to elemental damage -- if a mob is weak vs an element, then an arcane can exploit that more easily than a divine. But in terms of overall damage, a divine can stack up just fine against them, as well as being able to bring a serious heal battery into play.. While an arcane has an advantage in terms of variety when it comes to CC, the divine's arsenal has everything they need. G.Command will put most mobs on their butts. Cometfall will do the same and comes with a damage component.

Do you honestly believe Greater Command and Cometfall stack up with Web, Disco Ball, Hold, and Halt Undead?

[varusso]

Resistances are quantitative, enhancements are quantitative. Kiting is qualitative: BB absolutely requires it, arcanes absolutely do not. Range is qualitative: BB absolutely has to be cast on the caster, arcanes absolutely do not. These are important differences that become very apparent for "anyone who has played" them. Divines get 80 spell power, arcanes get 100. There are plenty of Thaumaturgy staves with Cold Mastery, I haven't seen one with Light Mastery. The resistances aren't a big deal.Do you honestly believe Greater Command and Cometfall stack up with Web, Disco Ball, Hold, and Halt Undead?

Pretty sure I already made it clear that playing a divine evoker required an adjustment to playstyle over an arcane evoker. I also pointed out that the mandatory kiting was the only real issue, and that only if you dont have the DCs to support it. For anyone who has actually played one, though, we all know that it really isnt an issue. The majority of quests are corridor/tunnel style dungeons. Run through dropping a BB everytime its off cooldown and you will destroy 90% of the mobs in it. Even "stationary mobs" (IE: casters and archers) will chase you if you get far enough away -- right through the same BBs the melee mobs are dying in.

You can easily craft any of the boom sticks you cant find in loot. Not to mention pots and clickies for additional stacking boosts. Plus the enhancements. The only downside is you cant augment BBs with enhancements -- but then again, you dont really need to. And yes resistances can be a big deal, when they are cutting your damage in half, to say nothing of immunities. Once again, only a couple things in game have defenses against BB, which is the real bread and butter damage spell. And only a handful have resistances to light damage as well, so your sPOW on either of them doesnt need to be as high as on the elemental damage of an arcane.

As far as the divine CCs? Yes, they absolutely DO stack up, if used properly, especially in conjunction with the right damage spells (yup, BB again). There isnt much need for CC if everything is dead. Why HOLD undead when you can blow them up instead? (cleric is particularly good at this one). Why dance a mob if you can kill them with a cometfall/firestorm, or let them shred themselves to death on a few BBs trying to catch you? The GC and CC portion of cometfall/etc is really inly for putting mobs on their butts long enough to kill them. It works very effectively when you are in a zerg group with melees. Hit em with a GC/CF, drop a BB, and let the melees in your group deal with whats left of them while you continue your BB zerg.

Really no different, fundamentally, than playing a zerg wiz with mass holds and AOEs. Again, the only difference there is the variety of CCs, not the quality of them. Divines are mostly one-trick ponies in terms of CC and damage -- but its a very good trick.

The real point here is that a divine life does not in any way shape or form have to be a boring, slow drudging journey from 1 to 20. If you can zerg your way up with an arcane, you can do it with a divine. The only really bad part is the low levels, when you have to either healbot or sub-par melee your way up to BB. But the low levels are quick, relatively speaking, so its not that bad.

Put it to you this way: I love arcanes -- my favorite classes in the game. But I am still itching to get back to my divines. Once I get my current arcane TR project back up to 20, its likely I will start working on my FVS again

[moops]

If you have never played a cleric, you will be horrified at how much worse an offensive caster it is compared to an arcane. Your direct damage ranges from middling to brutally poor (especially compared to a savant), your CC is universally poor, your instant kills are middling.

I disagree, my Cleric dominated in any pug I was in--Soundburst and a great axe FTW at lower lvls. At higher levels I didn't even need to BB--I just slayed and Destrucion and Imploded everything--throwing a cometfall first which killed many mobs, and knocked down the other mobs which meant less healing. Oh and the short work of undead quests and I wasn't even spec'd for turning. New players thought that I was a fool for choosing cleric for my final life, but shut up really quick when I was leading in kills by 20 - 50 avg and once as much as 100. She had the advantage of all the wiz past lives and gear so in Heroic elite her spells were landing near 95% and I realize that the new players didn't have the same advantages as I did. In pugs only people that really came close to me were TR'd PMs or TR'd Sorcs--of course these don't join pugs as much since they can solo most things...I pug to look for new friends and guild members.

My Cleric lives were the fastest--You don't need to be a healbot if you are in front of the pack killing most things before the pugs even get there. Sure you won't see the same big numbers as an arcane for the most part--but you do get to think about synergy with spells, and use different strategies. Often times you don't need the big numbers to kill mobs quickly. You can melee, but, why when you can push one button and kill a mob or many mobs? If you don't be a one trick blade barrier pony, cleric can be quite fun--and my cleric always, always out killed the BB tricksters. Not that kill count is a measure of anything, but it does show that a Cleric can be viable for Damage or efficiency.

It is my cleric that I am playing at End Game the most, even if I had built an FVS the same way, the FVS wouldn't be able to switch spells for different epic content, and I bounce from area to area every time I play. Just being able to load Death to Undeath is priceless for me--kill all those souls in CITW that melees seem to like to fight instead of Legs--and also works great in many of the eveningstar quests.