Why Take 3 FS past lives?

[Ushurak]

Need a little advice here.

I am on my 3rd Sorc life with the intention of my final life being a Sorc. My next 3 lives will be Wizzie for the +6 to spell pen checks (wish it was to dc instead).

The common train of though seems to be to grind out another 3 FS past lives as well, which will only give a gain of +3 to spell pen (1/2 of what Wizzie plf grants). IMHO the gain from FS PLF is not worth the effort placed into it...especially for a Sorc. It seems like 3 Cleric PLF would have a greater gain (+3 DC to conjuration), and after talking to several TR's in my guild they all seem to agree with me, yet they all say that few actually grind out 3 Cleric PL.

As a nuker, I find little use for spell pen, on Ehard content my dancing balls still hit the base drow mobs in the MoTU content with just the spell pen from my gear. I do understand EE would be different, but again...I am a nuker.

I am not discrediting the value of spell pen, I am questioning whether grinding out 3 FS PL is efficient for a primary nuker. Even my 1st life Wizzie (meaning zero PLF) has no problem in EE content with spell pen...it is the DC's that need more strength. Even with a 50-53 (depending on buffs and Yugo), I still find my DC's only "doable".

So, If my final Sorc life is going to be a nuker; is 3 FS PL going to be worth the ungodly grind or would 3 Cleric PL net me a better gain?

BTW - I am not thrilled about grinding 3 Cleric PL; but it seems to be more of a gain...LoB FS would be much more fun.

Also, a little advice on how to make 3 Cleric lives more bearable would be nice (splash builds, etc.)...I DO NOT wish to play heal bot for 3 lives. 12 Cleric/8 Monk? - 15 Cleric/ 5 Sorc (for the Force Enhancements line for BB) ?

[Gkar]

I have some silly advice... if the past lives don't sound enjoyable to you, don't do them.

[Mastikator]

Grinding out past lives for the sake of past Life Feat is never worth the effort when compared to grinding items and epic destinies.
It is however possibly more fun to grind out past lives. (I say possibly because I don't know.)

[Feralthyrtiaq]

My cleric PL was Human(iirc but could have been helf) 2Monk/2Fighter/16Cleric with for no time spent at cap.

3xTWF, Stunning Fist, PL Monk, Toughness, IC Bludgeon, Emp Heal, Maximise, Quicken, Quick Draw/Extra Turning can't really recall.

Saves were OK. DPS was OK. CC was OK. Spell DCs meh... Survivabiltiy (both self and keeping party up) AWESOME.

Saves could have been more awesome replacing the 2 Fighter Levels with 2 Paladin for Divine Grace and building with more a bit more Charisma to take advantage of Radiant Servant Turn Undead regeneration + Higher Tier of Divine Might.

[Ushurak]

My cleric PL was Human(iirc but could have been helf) 2Monk/2Fighter/16Cleric with for no time spent at cap.

3xTWF, Stunning Fist, PL Monk, Toughness, IC Bludgeon, Emp Heal, Maximise, Quicken, Quick Draw/Extra Turning can't really recall.

Saves were OK. DPS was OK. CC was OK. Spell DCs meh... Survivabiltiy (both self and keeping party up) AWESOME.

Saves could have been more awesome replacing the 2 Fighter Levels with 2 Paladin for Divine Grace and building with more a bit more Charisma to take advantage of Radiant Servant Turn Undead regeneration + Higher Tier of Divine Might.

THIS looks like a fun build! I think I agree with the Pali levels though. I think I will keep this in mind.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Also, a little advice on how to make 3 Cleric lives more bearable would be nice (splash builds, etc.)...I DO NOT wish to play heal bot for 3 lives. 12 Cleric/8 Monk? - 15 Cleric/ 5 Sorc (for the Force Enhancements line for BB) ?

Believe it or not a cleric is a viable offensive caster, especially with sorc and wiz pastlives. Any gimp can melee their way to level 8 or so. So the rough spot for a caster cleric is 8-11(when you pick up blade barrier), which is conveniently deleras level range, and radient burst makes short work of this chain. Basically cleric life is much easier than you might think, and you don't even need to heal anyone.

[varusso]

Need a little advice here.

I am on my 3rd Sorc life with the intention of my final life being a Sorc. My next 3 lives will be Wizzie for the +6 to spell pen checks (wish it was to dc instead).

The common train of though seems to be to grind out another 3 FS past lives as well, which will only give a gain of +3 to spell pen (1/2 of what Wizzie plf grants). IMHO the gain from FS PLF is not worth the effort placed into it...especially for a Sorc. It seems like 3 Cleric PLF would have a greater gain (+3 DC to conjuration), and after talking to several TR's in my guild they all seem to agree with me, yet they all say that few actually grind out 3 Cleric PL.

As a nuker, I find little use for spell pen, on Ehard content my dancing balls still hit the base drow mobs in the MoTU content with just the spell pen from my gear. I do understand EE would be different, but again...I am a nuker.

I am not discrediting the value of spell pen, I am questioning whether grinding out 3 FS PL is efficient for a primary nuker. Even my 1st life Wizzie (meaning zero PLF) has no problem in EE content with spell pen...it is the DC's that need more strength. Even with a 50-53 (depending on buffs and Yugo), I still find my DC's only "doable".

So, If my final Sorc life is going to be a nuker; is 3 FS PL going to be worth the ungodly grind or would 3 Cleric PL net me a better gain?

BTW - I am not thrilled about grinding 3 Cleric PL; but it seems to be more of a gain...LoB FS would be much more fun.

Also, a little advice on how to make 3 Cleric lives more bearable would be nice (splash builds, etc.)...I DO NOT wish to play heal bot for 3 lives. 12 Cleric/8 Monk? - 15 Cleric/ 5 Sorc (for the Force Enhancements line for BB) ?

What makes you think you have to choose between the two? You can gain benefits from FVS and from Cleric. As far as an "ungodly grind" -- if you play the cleric and FVS lives similar to your Sorc (IE: Evoker), then they can zip right on by. Once you get BB, both of them become ridiculously easy to zerg through to 20, especially the FVS, and with only a few adjustments to your gear. Also, dont forget that 3 FVS lives gives an additional 60 SP -- not alot by itself, but it all adds up. Also, EDs give much more powerful boosts than PLs, but once again -- it all adds together.

If you are planning to zerg through your PLs as opposed to hanging out at 20+ for a while, I wouldnt even bother with splashes. Go pure to get your spells faster, more SP for blowing stuff up, better spell pen, etc. You only have to healbot if you want to. Blade Barrier zerg-kiting is one of the most efficient killing methods in the game, especially in Heroic levels. Until then its a mix of melee and spell nukage.

[Tid12]

As a nuker, I find little use for spell pen, on Ehard content my dancing balls still hit the base drow mobs in the MoTU content with just the spell pen from my gear. I do understand EE would be different, but again...I am a nuker.

Then why did you bother with Wizzies PLs first of all?

If you think it's not worth it, then don't do it. 3 Spell Penetration is nice and it's still 60 more SP.

[Ushurak]

Then why did you bother with Wizzies PLs first of all?

If you think it's not worth it, then don't do it. 3 Spell Penetration is nice and it's still 60 more SP.

Because the +6 free spell pen from Wizzie is nice...but to only gain +3 from the same amount of grind from another class has me questioning if it is worth it.

[Ushurak]

Believe it or not a cleric is a viable offensive caster, especially with sorc and wiz pastlives. Any gimp can melee their way to level 8 or so. So the rough spot for a caster cleric is 8-11(when you pick up blade barrier), which is conveniently deleras level range, and radient burst makes short work of this chain. Basically cleric life is much easier than you might think, and you don't even need to heal anyone.

I have never played a Cleric so I'm not really sure how offensive they can really be.
I do have a human FS but I went full TWF str/dex/con. I only have a bare minimum offensive spells (only one needs spell pen) and all the rest are buff and heals. I did this so nobody expected me to play healer.
This is the only experience I have with the divine classes so I don't know how the Cleric stacks up and seems that as soon as other players see the word "Cleric" they expect you to be their healer.

I appreciate those that wish to play healer but I do not want the burden of keeping others alive, not sure if I am up for the task...but if they do make a good offensive caster then I may like it more than I realize atm.

[Syllph]

Need a little advice here.

I am on my 3rd Sorc life with the intention of my final life being a Sorc. My next 3 lives will be Wizzie for the +6 to spell pen checks (wish it was to dc instead).

The common train of though seems to be to grind out another 3 FS past lives as well, which will only give a gain of +3 to spell pen (1/2 of what Wizzie plf grants). IMHO the gain from FS PLF is not worth the effort placed into it...especially for a Sorc. It seems like 3 Cleric PLF would have a greater gain (+3 DC to conjuration), and after talking to several TR's in my guild they all seem to agree with me, yet they all say that few actually grind out 3 Cleric PL.

As a nuker, I find little use for spell pen, on Ehard content my dancing balls still hit the base drow mobs in the MoTU content with just the spell pen from my gear. I do understand EE would be different, but again...I am a nuker.

I am not discrediting the value of spell pen, I am questioning whether grinding out 3 FS PL is efficient for a primary nuker. Even my 1st life Wizzie (meaning zero PLF) has no problem in EE content with spell pen...it is the DC's that need more strength. Even with a 50-53 (depending on buffs and Yugo), I still find my DC's only "doable".

So, If my final Sorc life is going to be a nuker; is 3 FS PL going to be worth the ungodly grind or would 3 Cleric PL net me a better gain?

BTW - I am not thrilled about grinding 3 Cleric PL; but it seems to be more of a gain...LoB FS would be much more fun.

Also, a little advice on how to make 3 Cleric lives more bearable would be nice (splash builds, etc.)...I DO NOT wish to play heal bot for 3 lives. 12 Cleric/8 Monk? - 15 Cleric/ 5 Sorc (for the Force Enhancements line for BB) ?

It's hard to answer this question, in one breath you say you're doing 3 wizzy past lives for spell pen and in the next breath you say you don't need spell pen on a nuker. Seems like you answered your own question.

Additionally, you say "Even my 1st life Wizzie (meaning zero PLF) has no problem in EE content with spell pen..." If your wizzy can do it, then what is he doing that your sorc cannot do? Wizzys don't gain any intrinsic bonus that a sorc does not, unless you rolled an elf - and even then I cannot imagine that helping you that much if you have 0 problems in EE. Elf only adds +4 to spell pen.

However, I'm curious how 0 problems on a first lifer is possible by the way. My sorc has multiple past lives and +48 to spell pen, good gear, feats to support spell pen, and ED to additionally support it: and I still fail at times on EE, so how you're able to do it with no past lives I'd like to know, please share - perhaps you don't run Forgotten Realms content? In the Eberron setting I don't have any problems either.

[donfilibuster]

Because the +6 free spell pen from Wizzie is nice...but to only gain +3 from the same amount of grind from another class has me questioning if it is worth it.

What is happening is that wiz looks better only because it helps to avoid investing heavily on spell pen.
No other PL has this quirk, they all offer some unique but minor gain that you can't have in other ways.
(so it's not that the fvs is not worth, it's the wiz that has hidden value, those pesky wizards!)

[arminius]

Also don't forget that just because you do ok on spell pen today, it won't be today forever. If you care about being the best (and given the number of past lives done already, it sounds like you do) then you prepare not just for today but tomorrow and on into the future.

Forumites have been banging the "game too easy" gong for a while now, so expect the pendulum to swing back the other way in due time.

[Ushurak]

It's hard to answer this question, in one breath you say you're doing 3 wizzy past lives for spell pen and in the next breath you say you don't need spell pen on a nuker. Seems like you answered your own question.

[[OK, Lemme rephrase...spell pen on a nuker (my nuker at least) isn't AS needed as it is for an enchanter or necromancer; but the free spell pen bonuses would leave my options open if I wanted my final life to be a CC Sorc instead of a nuker Sorc...I have thought about it, just not sure if a CC Sorc is viable like they were pre-Savant lines.]]

Additionally, you say "Even my 1st life Wizzie (meaning zero PLF) has no problem in EE content with spell pen..." If your wizzy can do it, then what is he doing that your sorc cannot do? Wizzys don't gain any intrinsic bonus that a sorc does not, unless you rolled an elf - and even then I cannot imagine that helping you that much if you have 0 problems in EE. Elf only adds +4 to spell pen.

[[My Wizzie has all of the spell pen feats and enhancements and ED while my Sorc has exactly zero.]]

However, I'm curious how 0 problems on a first lifer is possible by the way. My sorc has multiple past lives and +48 to spell pen, good gear, feats to support spell pen, and ED to additionally support it: and I still fail at times on EE, so how you're able to do it with no past lives I'd like to know, please share - perhaps you don't run Forgotten Realms content? In the Eberron setting I don't have any problems either.

[[I run plenty of FR epic content. It is just about the only E content I run. Like I said...I have problems with my DC's but not my spell pen; but this isn't about my Wizzie, was just using him as a reference point, not as a topic of discussion...though I will TR him after I am through with my final Sorc life...which is a long way away.]]

Comments in brackets.

[Ushurak]

What is happening is that wiz looks better only because it helps to avoid investing heavily on spell pen.
No other PL has this quirk, they all offer some unique but minor gain that you can't have in other ways.
(so it's not that the fvs is not worth, it's the wiz that has hidden value, those pesky wizards!)

Yeah, I guess this kind of puts it in perspective...

[goodspeed]

If your end goal is to be a sorc, I really wouldn't shoot for the spell pen. I mean I guess you could but why?

As for dc's evo never hurts, and grinding out 3 lives or more for more evo would really depend on what savent. For instance an ice savent. Somewhat needs dc's but ur mail powerhouse strikers are no save.

Now turn the tables and say air savent, all of a sudden everything is a dc, and worse it's a reflex based dc. So for that I would farm and farm the points.

If I was trying to break pen on drow i'd want all the pen, and the feats, maybe even the elf race. Course if I was going that route, i'd just as soon as be a wizard with the arsenal of feats, and not the starved sorc.

CC wise mine shoots for web. No spell pen checks, just gotta beat of dc on a relfex save, but thanks to a lil cloud cast, you can drop that dramatically as well.

[Dragbon]

A really easy way to get the cleric past life to do 19 cleric and 1 barbarian. At low levels you can melee your way to victory and then you get into alot of undead heavy quest where your burst will kill them all in one hit. And then you get bb and just use that until cap. Its a great all around leveling build. You can zerg really well with this build.

Go human Feats are : Toughness Maximize Wiz Pastlife Empower Spell Focus Evocation Quicken Greater Spell Focus Evocation Sorc Pastlife
Barbarian first then rest Cleric

[Kinerd]

The common train of though seems to be to grind out another 3 FS past lives as well, which will only give a gain of +3 to spell pen (1/2 of what Wizzie plf grants). IMHO the gain from FS PLF is not worth the effort placed into it...especially for a Sorc.

Your HO is exactly correct.

It seems like 3 Cleric PLF would have a greater gain (+3 DC to conjuration), and after talking to several TR's in my guild they all seem to agree with me, yet they all say that few actually grind out 3 Cleric PL.

Even that is a very poor return on investment. Your only really quality Conjuration spell with a save is Web, and one of the beautiful things about Web is it's happy to stand there as you run the flies back and forth and back and forth until they stick.

If you have never played a cleric, you will be horrified at how much worse an offensive caster it is compared to an arcane. Your direct damage ranges from middling to brutally poor (especially compared to a savant), your CC is universally poor, your instant kills are middling.

I have no doubt you will be sick to death of TRing by the time you finish your wizard lives, so this is a fairly moot point anyway.

.

Regarding the more general question of spell pen on a sorc: you have amazingly powerful SR based attacks that you can unlock in the majority of content with a relatively small investment. Will you be able to regularly penetrate Elite Drow priestesses? No. But you can guarantee that every quest prior to update 15 has exactly 0 Elite Drow priestesses. That's a lot of stuff that you, sorcerer, can knock all down with the Wail button! What else are you slotting in level 9, right?

[trog_star]

i'm in the process of aquireing 3 FvS lives for my wizard, max spell pen build.

it is a lot of time / effort. but if you want to finger priestess.....

[Ushurak]

Your HO is exactly correct.Even that is a very poor return on investment. Your only really quality Conjuration spell with a save is Web, and one of the beautiful things about Web is it's happy to stand there as you run the flies back and forth and back and forth until they stick.

[[Didn't think about it this way...this is how I scroll farmed Von 5 before in the old Epic.]]

If you have never played a cleric, you will be horrified at how much worse an offensive caster it is compared to an arcane. Your direct damage ranges from middling to brutally poor (especially compared to a savant), your CC is universally poor, your instant kills are middling.

[[So I have one person saying they can be a strong offensive caster and you are saying no way...
I know my FS can be an offensive caster but after playing my Sorc for so long, I found the FS to be lack-luster in the way of offensive casting which is why I turned him into a self-healing/buffing TWF. If the Cleric spells are the same as FS then you are probably correct; but like I said, I have never played a Cleric so I am only going off of what you guys are telling me.]]

I have no doubt you will be sick to death of TRing by the time you finish your wizard lives, so this is a fairly moot point anyway.

[[Yeppers]]

.

Regarding the more general question of spell pen on a sorc: you have amazingly powerful SR based attacks that you can unlock in the majority of content with a relatively small investment. Will you be able to regularly penetrate Elite Drow priestesses? No. But you can guarantee that every quest prior to update 15 has exactly 0 Elite Drow priestesses. That's a lot of stuff that you, sorcerer, can knock all down with the Wail button! What else are you slotting in level 9, right?

[[Good point...maybe I will get the larger investment in spell pen from the 3 Wizzie pl and then go back to my final life Sorc and let it ride.]]

Comments in brackets

EDIT: My apologies, nobody said that a Cleric could be a "strong offensive caster"...I had to go back and look...they said "viable offensive caster" which is two different things...I do understand that alot of their "offensive" comes from a single spell...BB.