the new enhancements

[Jay203]

now that the cat's out of the bag...
Eladrin, might as well post official threads for discussing each of the PrEs so we players can.... help?

please?

[arkonas]

i think they will when its closer to launch date. they want to get a lot of testing done on this.

[shadereaper33]

i think they will when its closer to launch date. they want to get a lot of testing done on this.

The sooner they get this stuff into our hands, the sooner we can provide feedback on what we like, what we don't like, and most importantly, what just doesn't work. Obviously, they need to get the system into a somewhat usable state before we can start actually playing with it, but I personally see no reason why they can't post information about the various trees and the overall way the system will work. Ideally, I would like to see a thread for the overall enhancement system, and then 1 thread for each individual enhancement tree that lists all of the abilities in the tree, along with their effects at each rank purchased, and the AP cost of each one. Then, if there are small changes to an ability, the dev's can update that first post that lists all of the information, or if there are major changes, they can close the thread and start a new one with the updated changes. Regardless of what they do, they need to give the player base a lot of time to get our hands on this before it goes live, as this will completely change one of the biggest core aspects of the game, and if it isn't done right, I could see this seriously hurting the game. If it is done right though, it could be one of the best things to happen to the game.

[arkonas]

The sooner they get this stuff into our hands, the sooner we can provide feedback on what we like, what we don't like, and most importantly, what just doesn't work. Obviously, they need to get the system into a somewhat usable state before we can start actually playing with it, but I personally see no reason why they can't post information about the various trees and the overall way the system will work. Ideally, I would like to see a thread for the overall enhancement system, and then 1 thread for each individual enhancement tree that lists all of the abilities in the tree, along with their effects at each rank purchased, and the AP cost of each one. Then, if there are small changes to an ability, the dev's can update that first post that lists all of the information, or if there are major changes, they can close the thread and start a new one with the updated changes. Regardless of what they do, they need to give the player base a lot of time to get our hands on this before it goes live, as this will completely change one of the biggest core aspects of the game, and if it isn't done right, I could see this seriously hurting the game. If it is done right though, it could be one of the best things to happen to the game.

oh i agree with this too. I think it will be great if it's anything like the epic destinies.

[Aashrym]

The sooner they get this stuff into our hands, the sooner we can provide feedback on what we like, what we don't like, and most importantly, what just doesn't work. Obviously, they need to get the system into a somewhat usable state before we can start actually playing with it, but I personally see no reason why they can't post information about the various trees and the overall way the system will work. Ideally, I would like to see a thread for the overall enhancement system, and then 1 thread for each individual enhancement tree that lists all of the abilities in the tree, along with their effects at each rank purchased, and the AP cost of each one. Then, if there are small changes to an ability, the dev's can update that first post that lists all of the information, or if there are major changes, they can close the thread and start a new one with the updated changes. Regardless of what they do, they need to give the player base a lot of time to get our hands on this before it goes live, as this will completely change one of the biggest core aspects of the game, and if it isn't done right, I could see this seriously hurting the game. If it is done right though, it could be one of the best things to happen to the game.

I agree with this largely but to a point. I think earlier feedback based on general concept is good. I think spending excessive hours reworking and more countless hours reviewing and discussing as counter-productive because they will never please everyone and talking about work doesn't actually complete work.

I would like to see a bit more but I wouldn't want to impact their productivity by going overboard, if that makes any sense.

[kingfisher]

the most important information is about the enh system itself and what compromise they have reached after they thankfully pulled back the horrid 3 tree limitation. once they give us that info, then the actual enh breakdowns will be useful.

[shadereaper33]

I agree with this largely but to a point. I think earlier feedback based on general concept is good. I think spending excessive hours reworking and more countless hours reviewing and discussing as counter-productive because they will never please everyone and talking about work doesn't actually complete work.

I would like to see a bit more but I wouldn't want to impact their productivity by going overboard, if that makes any sense.

I understand what you are getting at, and I do agree with you on that, but the longer they go without getting some feedback from the player base, the more likely we are to end up with a system that is not to our liking. Take what Kingfisher said for an example. If they hadn't started talking to us about the system months ago, we wouldn't have known that they were working on a system with a 3 tree limit, which sparked a huge debate. So far as I know, we still haven't gotten a confirmation on whether or not the 3 tree limit is still the design goal, or if they changed that. If they get so far into the development that the 3 tree system is integral to the design, but the vast majority of the player base ends up resenting that limitation, you end up with either a whole lot of rework to do or a large number of unhappy players, neither of which is good for business.

[BlackSteel]

after they thankfully pulled back the horrid 3 tree limitation. .

when did that happen? if so, thats disappointing. Not everyone is agaisnt a 3 tree limit

[azrael4h]

the most important information is about the enh system itself and what compromise they have reached after they thankfully pulled back the horrid 3 tree limitation. once they give us that info, then the actual enh breakdowns will be useful.

Did they ever come out and say that? Last time I checked the enhancement thread, which has grown so large that it has it's own economy and listing on the stock exchanges (it's worth more than Zynga!), the devs were silent on that. Granted, I think now it's on the migration patterns of squirrels, but that's how things go.

Looks like things will be level-limited, so the three tree limit should be unnecessary. You won't be taking two levels of Rogue on a Bard and being a capstone Assassin. Might make the UI a bit more of a pain to develop and design, since characters will have up to 10 (1 racial, 3 per class) tabs, but maybe they can set up something that's more dynamic in adding tabs, than a static one-size-fits-none model.

[scoobmx]

my prediction is that WF juggernaut will either not exist, or be complete garbage

[azrael4h]

my prediction is that WF juggernaut will either not exist, or be complete garbage

Last I heard, the plan was to give each race a carbon-copy of existing class PrEs, like Elf has with AA. WF (and Dwarf) were given Stalwart Defender.

[Kaeper]

Last I heard, the plan was to give each race a carbon-copy of existing class PrEs, like Elf has with AA. WF (and Dwarf) were given Stalwart Defender.

Two races getting the same PrE is boooooring

Warforged seem well suited to an Artificer PrE. Battle Engineer would be nice but there should be additional PrE's added to Arti's with the revamp anyway. I could see a melee focused Juggernaut in the mix there.

[azrael4h]

Two races getting the same PrE is boooooring

Warforged seem well suited to an Artificer PrE. Battle Engineer would be nice but there should be additional PrE's added to Arti's with the revamp anyway. I could see a melee focused Juggernaut in the mix there.

Not just that, Warforged are not suited towards melee at all anymore.

[DarkForte]

WF need a complete rework. The current bonuses they get don't offset their penalties by far. They're not even contenders for maximum DPS anymore since half-orc launched with the same PA bonus.

[azrael4h]

WF need a complete rework. The current bonuses they get don't offset their penalties by far. They're not even contenders for maximum DPS anymore since half-orc launched with the same PA bonus.

Yeah, but it's been proven that the devs only realize there's an issue if one actually plays something that has an issue. None are playing Warforged obviously, either as a melee or as a caster, given the constant stream of nerfs they've received since U14. They take too much damage and have less of a means to mitigate it as a melee, and are harder to heal. They have lesser DCs as an arcane, and have more issues with gearing due to not having a docent-equivalent to the many good robes out there. And now their already weaker self-healing as an arcane is being weakened further, to the point that there isn't one; you're better off with Heal scrolls on a fleshy, with just a bit of easily-obtained healing amp.

[scoobmx]

Yeah, but it's been proven that the devs only realize there's an issue if one actually plays something that has an issue. None are playing Warforged obviously, either as a melee or as a caster, given the constant stream of nerfs they've received since U14. They take too much damage and have less of a means to mitigate it as a melee, and are harder to heal. They have lesser DCs as an arcane, and have more issues with gearing due to not having a docent-equivalent to the many good robes out there. And now their already weaker self-healing as an arcane is being weakened further, to the point that there isn't one; you're better off with Heal scrolls on a fleshy, with just a bit of easily-obtained healing amp.

And that is why I play maybe 1 hr a week now. I made multiple threads about this but most are unanswered by devs.

[Aashrym]

Looks like things will be level-limited, so the three tree limit should be unnecessary. You won't be taking two levels of Rogue on a Bard and being a capstone Assassin. Might make the UI a bit more of a pain to develop and design, since characters will have up to 10 (1 racial, 3 per class) tabs, but maybe they can set up something that's more dynamic in adding tabs, than a static one-size-fits-none model.

The level limiting isn't really there per one of the dev's, forget which one. I think it was Varg, however.

The tier unlocks are based on point spend and not levels. Apparently there are some exceptions but no examples listed.

So 11 levels is what it take to get to the top tier in a tree, pure or multi-class, by spending 40 points in that tree. It's only possible to spend AP in one top tier in any given tree that way due to only having 80 AP but level isn't restricting it.

A front loaded class (like most classes) would have the same top tier access as a pure class without the dead weight of those higher levels with nothing in them. Why would someone want 18-20 ranger levels, for example, when they can multi-class and it takes 11 ranger levels for the best class abilities and the top tier enhancements?

When class abilities are front loaded, and enhancements are front loaded, the only thing going to higher levels really gives us is the higher PrE free abilities. It doesn't look very promising when that includes choices like:

Carthweel Charge (30 AP,18 Rogue)
After tumbling, you gain a +2 Morale bonus to STR and DEX for 6 seconds

Followthrough (41 AP, 20 Rogue)
You gain +2 STR and DEX. After tumbling, your basic attacks with two handed weapons strike two targets per swing instead of one for 6 seconds.

Abilities of that caliber would not entice me to pure classing over the front loaded benefits from any of several other classes.

[Scraap]

The level limiting isn't really there per one of the dev's, forget which one. I think it was Varg, however.

The tier unlocks are based on point spend and not levels. Apparently there are some exceptions but no examples listed.

So 11 levels is what it take to get to the top tier in a tree, pure or multi-class, by spending 40 points in that tree. It's only possible to spend AP in one top tier in any given tree that way due to only having 80 AP but level isn't restricting it.

A front loaded class (like most classes) would have the same top tier access as a pure class without the dead weight of those higher levels with nothing in them. Why would someone want 18-20 ranger levels, for example, when they can multi-class and it takes 11 ranger levels for the best class abilities and the top tier enhancements?

When class abilities are front loaded, and enhancements are front loaded, the only thing going to higher levels really gives us is the higher PrE free abilities. It doesn't look very promising when that includes choices like:

Carthweel Charge (30 AP,18 Rogue)
After tumbling, you gain a +2 Morale bonus to STR and DEX for 6 seconds

Followthrough (41 AP, 20 Rogue)
You gain +2 STR and DEX. After tumbling, your basic attacks with two handed weapons strike two targets per swing instead of one for 6 seconds.

Abilities of that caliber would not entice me to pure classing over the front loaded benefits from any of several other classes.

I'm actually a little dissapointed there aren't 9th and 15th level steps in there, to make 12/8 or 11/9 as potentially interesting a choice as 18/2 or 17/3, though I would agree that sacrifices should be proportionate, so front-loaded classes with back-loaded autos, and back-loaded classes with front-loaded ones really would be the ideal.

[shadereaper33]

The level limiting isn't really there per one of the dev's, forget which one. I think it was Varg, however.

The tier unlocks are based on point spend and not levels. Apparently there are some exceptions but no examples listed.

So 11 levels is what it take to get to the top tier in a tree, pure or multi-class, by spending 40 points in that tree. It's only possible to spend AP in one top tier in any given tree that way due to only having 80 AP but level isn't restricting it.

A front loaded class (like most classes) would have the same top tier access as a pure class without the dead weight of those higher levels with nothing in them. Why would someone want 18-20 ranger levels, for example, when they can multi-class and it takes 11 ranger levels for the best class abilities and the top tier enhancements?

When class abilities are front loaded, and enhancements are front loaded, the only thing going to higher levels really gives us is the higher PrE free abilities. It doesn't look very promising when that includes choices like:

Carthweel Charge (30 AP,18 Rogue)
After tumbling, you gain a +2 Morale bonus to STR and DEX for 6 seconds

Followthrough (41 AP, 20 Rogue)
You gain +2 STR and DEX. After tumbling, your basic attacks with two handed weapons strike two targets per swing instead of one for 6 seconds.

Abilities of that caliber would not entice me to pure classing over the front loaded benefits from any of several other classes.

From what I understand, the current plan has the buy in abilities with AP spent requirements, and the autogrant stuff, like the dex to atk and damage for assassin, are going to be based on AP spent and minimum class levels.

[Aashrym]

From what I understand, the current plan has the buy in abilities with AP spent requirements, and the autogrant stuff, like the dex to atk and damage for assassin, are going to be based on AP spent and minimum class levels.

That's what I meant by the PrE free abilities being level restricted, if I wasn't clear.

So if those free PrE abilities aren't very strong then there isn't much incentive.