Rogue: Rough-in of Assassin

[Coldin]

I'm not exactly happy about rapiers being left behind by the enhancement changes. They're a pretty iconic rogue weapon, and require weapon finesse like daggers and kukris to use the dexterity bonus. I can see the appeal of making daggers/kukries more desirable as a rogue weapon, but it's unfortunate it's coming at the cost of the rapier.

Why not just give daggers and kukris an innate damage increase over other weapons, but let all finesse weapons have the capability of using Dex for damage.

[oradafu]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No faster sneaking? Also, why don't we have Faster Sneaking in the Assassin tree? I saw it in the Thief-Acrobat tree, which kind of makes sense, since they're all about moving fast and being light on their feat, but T-A has very little to do with stealth, whereas Assassin has a much stronger inclination in that direction. Plus, Acrobats get plenty of other movement speed boosters in one form or another. The Assassin is the PrE with bonuses in Hide and Move Silently and an ability that specifically calls for you to be sneaking--the effect deserves to be here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ninja and Deepwood are both focused on stealth, like the Assassin is, while the Acrobat really isn't, which is my issue. Why isn't the PrE that gets bonuses to Hide and Move Silently getting the ability that improves that action? If it's just to encourage multiclassing, there are better ways to do that.

Sneak Faster is currently needed for Acrobat on live.

As for Sneaking Faster having little to do with Thief Acrobats, I completely disagree. Since a Cat burglar is more of a Thief Acrobat than Assassin or Mechanic, Sneak Faster would be the correct place. For example, an Acrobat would sneak into a place and steal an object and leave without being noticed while avoiding and/or not triggering traps; whereas the Mechanic will play with the traps and the Assassin would slip in and kill the guards or wait for the object to be transported then kill the transporters to get the object.

[sephiroth1084]

Sneak Faster is currently needed for Acrobat on live.

As for Sneaking Faster having little to do with Thief Acrobats, I completely disagree. Since a Cat burglar is more of a Thief Acrobat than Assassin or Mechanic, Sneak Faster would be the correct place. For example, an Acrobat would sneak into a place and steal an object and leave without being noticed while avoiding and/or not triggering traps; whereas the Mechanic will play with the traps and the Assassin would slip in and kill the guards or wait for the object to be transported then kill the transporters to get the object.

Yes, it makes sense with the flavor of the name of the PrE, but if you look at the abilities of each, Acrobat has basically nothing to do with stealth aside from Sneak Faster, while Assassin provides bonuses to stealth skills, has Assassinate which requires stealth, and has several abilities with stealthy-sounding names.

An Acrobat currently gains no more benefit from sneaking than any other non-Assassin, non-Ninja Spy does. Additionally, the Acrobat has a few other movement-associated abilities centered around Tumbling, which cannot be used while sneaking, so it's also asynergistic there.

Plus, all of the flavor in the Acrobat tree is aimed at the "Acrobat" part, and not the "Thief" part, except for the two abilities that make more sense in the Assassin tree: Sneak Faster and Subtlety.

[Emili]

Sneak Faster is currently needed for Acrobat on live.

As for Sneaking Faster having little to do with Thief Acrobats, I completely disagree. Since a Cat burglar is more of a Thief Acrobat than Assassin or Mechanic, Sneak Faster would be the correct place. For example, an Acrobat would sneak into a place and steal an object and leave without being noticed while avoiding and/or not triggering traps; whereas the Mechanic will play with the traps and the Assassin would slip in and kill the guards or wait for the object to be transported then kill the transporters to get the object.

Ourside the horn past the water in crucible (where everyone - all classes, including my cleric - often use this strategy), how often does your acrobat burglar in DDO?

[Scraap]

That's our intent - the dagger/kukri abilities in the tree are intended to open up additional options for dex/int builds rather than completely replace existing weapons. A strength based assassin build, for instance, will likely want to go with rapiers, or even possibly the khopesh. We'll try to be careful with this.

An admirable goal, but it still throws a feat further under the bus. Hows about daggers and kukris free, rapiers and short-swords with a feat-tax? (edit: and light maces ect. wow It's been so long since they were useful even I forgot those existed)

also:

Just throwing this out there if the plan is for assassin to still be a racial tree then all of the skills that use rogue level for their calculations need to be changed to character level. Either that or racial trees need to grant you levels as if you were X levels of a specific class like how half elf dilettantes currently work.

^this.

[oradafu]

Yes, it makes sense with the flavor of the name of the PrE, but if you look at the abilities of each, Acrobat has basically nothing to do with stealth aside from Sneak Faster, while Assassin provides bonuses to stealth skills, has Assassinate which requires stealth, and has several abilities with stealthy-sounding names.

An Acrobat currently gains no more benefit from sneaking than any other non-Assassin, non-Ninja Spy does. Additionally, the Acrobat has a few other movement-associated abilities centered around Tumbling, which cannot be used while sneaking, so it's also asynergistic there.

Plus, all of the flavor in the Acrobat tree is aimed at the "Acrobat" part, and not the "Thief" part, except for the two abilities that make more sense in the Assassin tree: Sneak Faster and Subtlety.

Ourside the horn past the water in crucible (where everyone - all classes, including my cleric - often use this strategy), how often does your acrobat burglar in DDO?

Hey, I didn't make the Acrobat Enhancements on Live, but that's one of those nearly completely useless Enhancements that are needed to get the Prestige (almost every Prestige has at least one).

Also, I can't help that the dynamic of the game doesn't include more sneak and grab stuff (or pull lever) instead of kill, kill, kill that is so pervasive in the game. If I had my druthers, there would be less kill everything to advance in quest in the game; for example the exact opposite of the last update that had every quest clearing a room before continuing. Believe me, I'd love there to be more subtle gameplay stuff throughout the game, that unfortunately is mostly found at the low-levels of the game.

[maddmatt70]

Ourside the horn past the water in crucible (where everyone - all classes, including my cleric - often use this strategy), how often does your acrobat burglar in DDO?

When I solo on my rogue I use a lot more stealth sort of techniques. Stealth really is not conducive to party play other then when used with assasinate. If they want to make stealth more viable they need to change the benefits it provides or decrease the negatives in party play.

[Emili]

When I solo on my rogue I use a lot more stealth sort of techniques. Stealth really is not conducive to party play other then when used with assasinate. If they want to make stealth more viable they need to change the benefits it provides or decrease the negatives in party play.

Which was my point, the only PrE which uses it extended is an assasin... to all others is far and few between. It is not used by an acrobat often with but few exceptions and so is an odd-ball among that PrE.

[BananaHat]

My arti proc'd the heartseeker poison with its -5% HP on live yesterday through a double rainbow proc, so I imagine a lot of these abilities are waiting in the wings ready to be implemented.

Double rainbow finds all sorts of hidden treasures! I hope the fire barrel atomic bomb that spawned once for my wife is something the mechanic rogue or an arti can drop. Too bad it didn't hit anything when it detonated, I would have liked to see the damage. The frog I spawned is clearly from Primal Avatar.

Double Rainbow, the new preview server!

[Scraap]

Actually, on further reflection regarding the feat bit, much as I'd prefer you'd avoided dex to damage directly in the first place, and cooked up something a bit more unique, like dex to doublestrike to mimic attacks of opportunity, hows about just keeping it simple:

Stock toon = str to damage
PRE = dex to damage for focused targeted weaponry
feat = dex to damage for light weapons period

[Vargouille]

Double Rainbow, the new preview server!

This may or may not have been true since U14 launched. Effects created there may or may not actually ever exist anywhere else besides Double Rainbow or be changed significantly or insignificantly. We may or may not intentionally insert in red herrings, purple mackerels, or horses of different colors. Void where prohibited. Not available in all planes of existence.


(... may or may not have been waiting to see when this was figured out.)

[Brennie]

With this big push for Assassins to be using daggers and kukris, rapiers and shortswords are looking to largely be left in the cold, as most of the Assassin population will either go with the new flavor here, or the Khopeshes they were looking to use anyway. Also, without including a free Improved Critical for one or the other type of weapon, rogues won't be able to swap back an forth effectively.

This is what i was trying to highlight with my talk of strength based vs. dex based rogues. Sephiroth hit the nail on the head.

I'm concerned Rogues assassins will now come exclusively in two flavors - Strength based kopesh (And maybe, MAYBE, strength based SS/rapier users who cant' spare the feat), and Dex based dagger/kukri users (Who, I'm somewhat certain, will stick almost exclusively to one or the other due to improved crit considerations).

A dex based assassin picks up an awesome shortsword and rapier. Will they use them? No, because they don't have weapon finesse, and even if they did, they've invested AP to make daggers/kukris hit harder, while getting full dex-to-damage with them.

A strength based assassin picks up some daggers and kukris. Will they use them? Well, first off, being strength based means they've probably ignored the dagger/kukri enhancements, so they only get benefit from these weapons if their dex modifier is more than ha;lf their strength modifier, and even then, only as offhand weapons.

End result? Rather than having an improved peircing rogue who feels they can easily switch around between rapiers, shortswords, and daggers which are good enough to match ss/rapier prowess, you instead have rogue who use ONLY daggers, or ONLY kukris, or ONLY Kopeshes (though the last already exists). I would love to see a little more shortsword support, if not also rapier support, here. There are some excellent rogue-ish shortswords out there, and it'd be a shame if they immediately ignored by the entire rogue population after the enhancement pass!

[Scraap]

Technical query: what *would* be the consequences of tossing shortswords and other double-typed per tabletop weapons in both improved crit feat lists? Would it apply the code twice and end up with a potential for two feats to improve the range further, simply allow for an extra swap-weapon for dagger or kukri spec, or bork horribly?

[Kielbasa]

End result? Rather than having an improved peircing rogue who feels they can easily switch around between rapiers, shortswords, and daggers which are good enough to match ss/rapier prowess, you instead have rogue who use ONLY daggers, or ONLY kukris, or ONLY Kopeshes (though the last already exists). I would love to see a little more shortsword support, if not also rapier support, here. There are some excellent rogue-ish shortswords out there, and it'd be a shame if they immediately ignored by the entire rogue population after the enhancement pass!

Who's to say dex to hit and dex to damage with short swords or rapiers isn't the first two innates for drow or halflings? We've see dex to hit/damage for quarterstaffs, kukris, and daggers so far and word on the street is that dex to hit and damage for short swords may be in ninja spy somewhere. It only makes sense that most finessable weapons will have this feature somewhere in the new system. You may just need to change you race or class spilt to take full advantage of your favorite weapon types.

I see more weapon types becoming more viable than they have ever been in a very long time. The initial enhancement changes on paper look very promising in most cases.

[sephiroth1084]

End result? Rather than having an improved peircing rogue who feels they can easily switch around between rapiers, shortswords, and daggers which are good enough to match ss/rapier prowess, you instead have rogue who use ONLY Kopeshes (though the last already exists).

Except this isn't true! A khopesh-focused Str-based rogue can use light or heavy maces fairly effectively when called for, and if they come across a really excellent scimitar, they can make that swap easily enough. If they come across a strong rapier, shortsword, or dagger that comes with Keen on it, they can also easily make that swap.

Meanwhile, the new Dex-based Assassins can only use daggers of kukris, and then can only really make a swap if the off-type weapon has Keen on it. Let's look at some numbers...

Str-based:
Start with a 16 Str
Put in 7 level-ups
Make sure to get the best Str gear you can fit, so let's say +8 enhancement, +1 exceptional and +2 Insightful Str
____
Str of 34 (before other factors)

This character's Dex is irrelevant for the moment, because it has 0 effect on their ability to hit or damage things, so they could start with an 8 if they like, and can ignore Dex gear entirely. Or they could start with a 14 in order to get GTWF with a +3 tome, and equip a +6 Dex item to boost their AC and Reflex saves a bit, but that doesn't matter for the example.

If they wield a khopesh, they have +12 to-hit and +12 to damage.
If they wield a scimitar, they have +12 to-hit and +12 to damage.
If they wield a Keen rapier, they have +12 to-hit and +12 to damage.
If they wield a heavy or light mace, they have +12 to-hit and +12 to damage (and it doesn't matter what the crit range is because they are probably hitting undead or constructs, for which crits are much less meaningful).

Dex-based w/new Assassin enhancements:
Starting Dex of 16
Put in 7 level-ups
Make sure to get the best Dex gear, for +8, +1, +2
____
34

They're Str is important, since if they swap weapons they no longer have Dex for attack or damage. So let's say they start with a 12 and equip a +6 item for a total of 18.

If they wield a dagger, they have +12 to-hit and +12 to damage.
If they wield a kukri, they have +12 to-hit and +12 to damage.
They only have an expanded critical threat range with one of those, however.
If they wield a rapier, they have a +4 to-hit and +4 to damage.
Unless they also took the semi-unnecessary Weapon Finesse...
...which gives them +12 to-hit and +4 to damage.
If they wield a light or heavy mace, they have +4 to-hit and +4 to damage, or +12/+4 with Weapon Finesse.

The Str-based rogue can have all the same benefits as the Dex-based, with a little less AC and Reflex, while having far more flexibility in weapon selection, and will therefore be more adaptable--if they are fighting a monster with DR/slashing, DR/bludgeoning, or DR/piercing they can change weapons and punch through the DR without losing too much.

The Dex-based rogue ends up being tethered to one weapon, or can use a small variety at the cost of a feat that only benefits them when they are in unusual situations, and cannot adapt easily to a variety of DR types. They would have to choose which is more important when hitting a high AC lich: their to-hit, or bypassing DR.

THAT is why I would like to see one or both of the Dex replacement abilities here apply to all finessable weapons, or all light weapons, if you really want to exclude Dex-based Assassins from using rapiers for some reason, which I can't understand.

After all is said and done, an Assassin rogue with the full enhancement line is using a 1d4 khopesh without having to spend a feat, and has some more AC and Reflex, while having essentially zero ability to adapt to different weapon demands. Yes, AC is more relevant than it once was, but not so much more so that it warrants this level of weighted game design. Assassin will end up being a trap for many players who see the Dex for attack rolls with a couple of weapons and think that they can skip Weapon Finesse, and then find out down the line that doing so hurts them a bit in certain situations, while the Str-based rogues can take the same PrE, save some AP at the back end, and be better off in nearly every respect.

[TreknaQudane]

After all is said and done, an Assassin rogue with the full enhancement line is using a 1d4 khopesh without having to spend a feat, and has some more AC and Reflex, while having essentially zero ability to adapt to different weapon demands. Yes, AC is more relevant than it once was, but not so much more so that it warrants this level of weighted game design. Assassin will end up being a trap for many players who see the Dex for attack rolls with a couple of weapons and think that they can skip Weapon Finesse, and then find out down the line that doing so hurts them a bit in certain situations, while the Str-based rogues can take the same PrE, save some AP at the back end, and be better off in nearly every respect.

Knit picking mostly but...

The Dagger would have a slightly larger crit range than a khopesh at 16-20:x3 as compared to 17-20:x

The Kukri's even better at 15-20:x3

[Kielbasa]

A smart dex based assassin rogue is going to dump 10 points into the acrobat tree and use a quarterstaff for when they need to break bludgeoning dr. If acrobatic and quick strike from the acrobat prestige doesn't change you'd have a situational weapon with 15% more attack speed and on demand 25% double strike. Not to shabby for when you need to fight undead or constructs. If you don't go kopesh you could pick up both slashing and piercing improved crit if you really want. Stop living in the past and be creative with the new system I'm sure as more prestiges are unveiled you'll be able to find plenty of other creative viable options for how to build your character.

[sephiroth1084]

Knit picking mostly but...

The Dagger would have a slightly larger crit range than a khopesh at 16-20:x3 as compared to 17-20:x

The Kukri's even better at 15-20:x3

Actually, we're both wrong on the dagger, which should be 15-20/x3 as well. And yes, I misspoke on that point.

[TreknaQudane]

Actually, we're both wrong on the dagger, which should be 15-20/x3 as well. And yes, I misspoke on that point.

Only if the expanded crit range is applied before improved critical. Those kind of bonuses usually aren't

[TazMan098]

How does one access this new enhancement pannel?