Rogue: Rough-in of Assassin

[Aashrym]

Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I-IV is MIA, isn't it?

I don't think that's been finalized but it appeared to be in the mechanic tree iirc. It only showed 3 points could be put into it so I find it likely the devs are considering each point to be worth the same bonus.

[Aashrym]

Well, so far only TA and Assassin have been posted that I've seen. But I haven't seen it. Can't have Rogues thinking they're people too you know.

Have you not be following my posts? BOMBERMAN!!

[azrael4h]

Have you not be following my posts? BOMBERMAN!!

I haven't been following the forums much. Not much point any more, given how a small group blasts anyone who dares voice a different opinion (or even worse, prove them wrong), and then go and cry to moderators to uphold their viewpoints. So if you (or anyone else for that matter) has posted something good, sorry. I missed it by that much.

[Scraap]

Have you not be following my posts? BOMBERMAN!!

Anything sound like CC, or AoE high debuf by chance? Cmon, stickybomb likeayou!

[Aashrym]

I haven't been following the forums much. Not much point any more, given how a small group blasts anyone who dares voice a different opinion (or even worse, prove them wrong), and then go and cry to moderators to uphold their viewpoints. So if you (or anyone else for that matter) has posted something good, sorry. I missed it by that much.

I haven't posted much on it and wouldn't be surprised if it's been torn down and rebuilt 2 or 3 times since the version I was even valid. But it was a mostly full tree and while I didn't pay too much attention to it (or record anything) I seem to recall that was where wand&scroll was listed, starting value +25% with 3 ranks to purchase.

Anything sound like CC, or AoE high debuf by chance? Cmon, stickybomb likeayou!

I don't actually remember many of the details and they could have changed. What caught my attention was timebomb so I could see myself sneaking around planting those if it works out. IIRC it was 250 sonic, 250 fire damage, knockdown and sunder. I could be mixing knockdown and sunder with something else tho.

I'm thinking mix acrobat movement bonuses with stealth and bombs. It's largely dependent on effectiveness and sounds like more fun soloing that grouping with it.

There were also bonuses to standard traps and iirc bonuses to the spell trap DC's.

We need high DC tanglefoot bags.

[Falco_Easts]

Actually, yet another thought occurred to me... does daggers include throwing?
/eyes halfling thrower concept

Oohh, please!!!

[Artos_Fabril]

This is a copy of the Assassin enhancements on Llama... they are pretty rough in some spots and obviously not finalized.

Looks kinda familiar... But lacks the General Tab.

[azrael4h]

I don't actually remember many of the details and they could have changed. What caught my attention was timebomb so I could see myself sneaking around planting those if it works out. IIRC it was 250 sonic, 250 fire damage, knockdown and sunder. I could be mixing knockdown and sunder with something else tho.

I'm thinking mix acrobat movement bonuses with stealth and bombs. It's largely dependent on effectiveness and sounds like more fun soloing that grouping with it.

There were also bonuses to standard traps and iirc bonuses to the spell trap DC's.

We need high DC tanglefoot bags.

Sounds like my guildy, who loved her mechanic over her other 3 Rogues (1 Assassin, 1 acro, 1 on another server) by quite a margin (and this is someone who prefers to play the rogue type in all games where there's a choice) will be very happy then. Then again, so long as they don't gut the class and turn it into something completely different, I think she'll be happy. She loves her Rogues. I'm enjoying mine, but I've only had the one, and I'm far from complete with her. While this one will likely end up Shroud-farming, or filling in at need rather than being a main, I wouldn't turn down another crack at Rogue as a TR, later on.

I still feel though that some things should be simply universal enhancements, available regardless of which PrE(s) you focus in. Class Toughness, spellpower, W&SM, BDSM, Barbarian Rage enhancements etc... Basically anything that is primarily affecting the core abilities of said class (casting for casters [natch], rage for Barbs, UMD and skills for Rogues) should be shoved into a general tab. Might lighten up the PrE trees a bit, but would allow for greater flexibility.

[Malithar45]

I still feel though that some things should be simply universal enhancements, available regardless of which PrE(s) you focus in. Class Toughness, spellpower, W&SM, BDSM, Barbarian Rage enhancements etc... Basically anything that is primarily affecting the core abilities of said class (casting for casters [natch], rage for Barbs, UMD and skills for Rogues) should be shoved into a general tab. Might lighten up the PrE trees a bit, but would allow for greater flexibility.

As long as they're low in whichever tree they decide to end in, does it matter? From an Assassin's point of view, I was dismayed at the lack of Haste Boost in Assassin (not that I thought it'd be there, but I was still hoping), but from what I read its in T2 of Acrobat, and by the dev numbers, it'll only take 5 AP in T1 to get there. Shouldn't be that big of a deal, and if many of these enhancements are in T1, then there's no issue, in my mind.

[TreknaQudane]

As long as they're low in whichever tree they decide to end in, does it matter? From an Assassin's point of view, I was dismayed at the lack of Haste Boost in Assassin (not that I thought it'd be there, but I was still hoping), but from what I read its in T2 of Acrobat, and by the dev numbers, it'll only take 5 AP in T1 to get there. Shouldn't be that big of a deal, and if many of these enhancements are in T1, then there's no issue, in my mind.

It's not a big deal if you are a pure class character. It's absolutely crippling if you multiclass.

[Aashrym]

It's not a big deal if you are a pure class character. It's absolutely crippling if you multiclass.

Playing a pure character is more crippling just by being pure if a person wants to be an acrobat.

I continue to reserve judgement on the tree issue until I see them all filled out. I'd take front loaded class and enhancement options over weak PrE and capstone abilities any day.

Lethality and Sneak of Shadows don't look bad. Cartwheel Charge and Follow Through just don't look appealing to me. 6 seconds active makes it easier to accomplish after tumbling but the bonus just doesn't seem like that much as I think about it. Trying it could change my mind.

I just don't see being stuck with 3 trees on a pure class as any less crippling than choosing the best 3 trees out of 6 or 9. Worst case scenario a person has the same 3 trees as the pure class with all the same enhancements, so if that would be crippling for the multi-class it would be crippling for the pure class.

The difference is in the higher level free PrE abilities and back loaded class abilities vs front loaded class abilities plus the option to choose more suitable trees to the overall build. I suspect we're still looking at melee multi-classes and caster pure classes for the most part, much like now.

[Malithar45]

It's not a big deal if you are a pure class character. It's absolutely crippling if you multiclass.

If they keep the tree limit that was discussed before, then I can agree with this. But if its switched out for pretty much a carbon copy of our ED UI (3-9 PrEs depending on depth of multiclass + 1 racial) where the PrEs occupy the left side in a list format, trees in the middle, and abilities on the right, then I don't see the issue. Specially if these "general" abilities are in T1 of their respective tree. You might lose our on say hitting what used to be PrE 1 with the same AP, but with how its looking, I can't imagine they'd make it THAT much worse.

There was definitely enough opposition to the tree limit idea for them to rethink it IMO.

[shadereaper33]

If they keep the tree limit that was discussed before, then I can agree with this. But if its switched out for pretty much a carbon copy of our ED UI (3-9 PrEs depending on depth of multiclass + 1 racial) where the PrEs occupy the left side in a list format, trees in the middle, and abilities on the right, then I don't see the issue. Specially if these "general" abilities are in T1 of their respective tree. You might lose our on say hitting what used to be PrE 1 with the same AP, but with how its looking, I can't imagine they'd make it THAT much worse.

There was definitely enough opposition to the tree limit idea for them to rethink it IMO.

The problem with not having a tree limit, as I see it right now, is that a person could splash 1 level of a class, and get full access to one or more of the enhancement trees for that class. For example, a rogue could splash 1 level of monk as an acrobat build, and get full access to the new henshin mystic tree, which puts them at a significant advantage over the pure rogue in this case, especially since capstones will no longer be tied pure level 20 characters. And honestly, who wouldn't want to splash something into a rogue build at that point? You get absolutely nothing of value for a level 20 rogue except the capstone right now, and that bonus is going to shifted with the enhancement overhaul, so it effectively puts anyone who went pure rogue at a disadvantage to anyone who multiclassed their rogue in any way.

Edit: Forgot that the autogrants were gated on class levels still, for some reason thought they were only gated on character level. It still remains that anyone who would splash 1 level of another class into their rogue build would likely be significantly more powerful than anyone who went pure if there was no tree limit. Currently, you have to weigh the capstone against a small number of class features and a few enhancements, but if the new system has no tree limit, you will then have to weigh the capstone against a few class features and ALL of that classes enhancements. Having no tree limit will put pure class characters at a significant disadvantage in my opinion.

[Scraap]

The problem with not having a tree limit, as I see it right now, is that a person could splash 1 level of a class, and get full access to one or more of the enhancement trees for that class. For example, a rogue could splash 1 level of monk as an acrobat build, and get full access to the new henshin mystic tree, which puts them at a significant advantage over the pure rogue in this case, especially since capstones will no longer be tied pure level 20 characters. And honestly, who wouldn't want to splash something into a rogue build at that point? You get absolutely nothing of value for a level 20 rogue except the capstone right now, and that bonus is going to shifted with the enhancement overhaul, so it effectively puts anyone who went pure rogue at a disadvantage to anyone who multiclassed their rogue in any way.

Looks like they're using a more mixed approach. Autos for backloading, points spent for frontloading.

[DarkPhoenix888]

So what am I supposed to do with the scores of rapiers I accumulated (looted or crafted) for my rogue assassin?
It seems that I'm being forced to use kukris or daggers in order to get the much coveted DEX to damage ability.
Please don't forget that there are several rogue oriented named rapiers in the game and this change is essentially nerfing them (by comparison that is). Also, DEX rogues may take the Weapon Finesse feat anyway for more versatility (in order to effectively use light maces vs liches/skeletons for example) so the second part of the first granted ability might be a bit redundant.

[Chette]

Uggg, I wholeheartedly dislike these enhancement systems that focus on specific weapon types. That doesn't encourage diversity in the least. Why not just build our characters for us?

Artificers, technically, should do well with a melee weapon like a bastard sword, which provides glancing blows and procs rune-arm effects on every glancing blow. But ask yourself how many of them have you seen since Arti came out? I'm betting none for most of you.

That's because the devs decided to tailor the artificer enhancements to a specific weapon. Now 90% of artificers are the exact same build, even though it could have been an incredibly diverse class.

Quit forcing characters down a certain path by tying enhancements to certain weapons. It is terrible for build diversity, which is one of the main things DDO has going for it over MMOs.

Also, remember that these enhancements are not just for pure rogue assassins, but for anybody with access to this tree, which will very likely include classes with few or no rogue levels at all.

Making these trees more generic and applicable to a multitude of builds will make the enhancement pass a great boost for the game, which is something it sorely needs right now.

[voodoogroves]

Uggg, I wholeheartedly dislike these enhancement systems that focus on specific weapon types. That doesn't encourage diversity in the least. Why not just build our characters for us?

Artificers, technically, should do well with a melee weapon like a bastard sword, which provides glancing blows and procs rune-arm effects on every glancing blow. But ask yourself how many of them have you seen since Arti came out? I'm betting none for most of you.

That's because the devs decided to tailor the artificer enhancements to a specific weapon. Now 90% of artificers are the exact same build, even though it could have been an incredibly diverse class.

Quit forcing characters down a certain path by tying enhancements to certain weapons. It is terrible for build diversity, which is one of the main things DDO has going for it over MMOs.

Also, remember that these enhancements are not just for pure rogue assassins, but for anybody with access to this tree, which will very likely include classes with few or no rogue levels at all.

Making these trees more generic and applicable to a multitude of builds will make the enhancement pass a great boost for the game, which is something it sorely needs right now.

Yeah, I'm hoping there are others that, when mixed, give options. Like DEX on short swords. Like an artificer who uses other melee weapons and not bastard/d-axes (incidentially, my biggest problem with that isn't the enhancments, it's the freaking rune-arm firing problems at close range)

[Artos_Fabril]

Yeah, I'm hoping there are others that, when mixed, give options. Like DEX on short swords. Like an artificer who uses other melee weapons and not bastard/d-axes (incidentially, my biggest problem with that isn't the enhancments, it's the freaking rune-arm firing problems at close range)

When I posted This the point was to make daggers and kukris about equally effective to rapiers, not to replace them. Obviously they decided to do things differently.

I'd still like to see the crit profile of daggers/kukris made even with rapiers, or even khopeshes, for assassins, without pushing them much past. But I think it's important to note that STR-based rapiers are still competetive with DEX-based daggers, and STR-based Kohpeshes are superior, while allowing for the better crit threat range on a Rad II kukri without buying yet another out-of-class weapon proficiency.

As for the artificer thing, the push towards repeaters comes in large part from the only Arti PrE tier adding more bonuses to repeaters than one-handers.

It's going to be interesting to see Mech-sassins with Lethality, IPS and mech repeater bonuses...

What disappointing to me right now is the over-all lack of options in each tree. If it takes 41 points for capstone abilities, there should be at least 82 points worth of options in each tree. Then you could see 2 full-on assassins with completely different enhancements. although given the enhancements thy're showing, you'd have at least 20 points exactly the same for every 41 point assassin build.

[SealedInSong]

Does this mean I can purchase acrobat staff alacrity and Assassinate simultaneously.

...

@.@

Please?

[ThreeEyedBob]

Hmm...so it might be a bette splash for a horc cleric to do 2 rogue levels and invest in the qstaff enhancements than doing 2 monk levels.

Clerogue