Rogue: Rough-in of Assassin

[TreknaQudane]

This is a copy of the Assassin enhancements on Llama... they are pretty rough in some spots and obviously not finalized.

Granted

Knife in the Darkness (0 AP, Rog 0)
You gain proficiency with Kukris. You can also use your Dexterity modifier to hit with Daggers and Kukris.
Dagger in the Back (5 AP, Rog 3)
You can now use your DEX modifier for damage with Daggers and Kukris
Assassin's Trick (10 AP, Rog 6)
Activate: Target intelligent opponent loses 25% Fort and immunity to Sneak Attack for 12 seconds if the target fails a Will save (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier)
Nimbleness (20 AP, Rog 12)
On Sneak Attack: Up to once every 2 seconds, you gain 1% dodge for 6 seconds. This effect can stack up to 10 times.
Lethality (30 AP, Rog 18)
Any sneak attack that also counts as a vorpal strike that you make will kill most living targets.
Deadly Shadow (41 AP, Rog 20)
+4 Sneak Attack Dice

Tier 1

Poison Strikes
Select one of three Poisonous attacks.
Toxin Affinity (3 Ranks)
+1/2/3 Fortitude Saves vs Poisons (and?) to the save DC of your Poison attacks
Shiv (3 Ranks)
Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] damage and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by 100. On Sneak Attack: Target also gains a -2 Fortitude penalty against Poisons for 20 seconds. (Stacks 5 times.)
Sneak Attack Training 1
Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing Sneak Attacks
Stealthy (3 Ranks)
+1/2/3 Hide and Move Silently

Tier 2

Poison Strikes*
Venomed Blades (3 Ranks)
Poison Stance: On Hit: 1d4/6/8 Poison damage with weapon attacks
Bleed Them Out (3 Ranks)
Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] damage and on successful damage causes your opponent to bleed. The bleed effect can stack up to 5 times.
Sneak Attack Training 2 (Requires: Sneak Attack Training 1)
Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing Sneak Attacks
Damage Boost (3 Ranks)

Tier 3

Poison Strikes*
Critical Accuracy (3 Ranks)
+1/2/3 to confirm Critical Hits
Shadow Dagger (3 Ranks)
Throws a dagger made of solidified shadows at your enemy. Deals 4d8 unholy damage and blinds the target (Fort DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier negates Blindness)
Sneak Attack Training 3 (Requires: Sneak Attack Training 2)
Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing Sneak Attacks
Stat Enhancement: DEX or INT

Tier 4

Execute (Requires: Critical Damage)
Melee Assassinate Attack: Deals +3[W] damage. On Sneak Attack: If the target is below 20% health, deal 500 damage (Fort DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Int Mod negates).
Critical Damage (3 Ranks) (Requires: Critical Accuracy)
+1/2/3 Critical Hit damage (before weapon multipliers)
Killer (3 Ranks) (Requires: Critical Damage)
When you kill a target, you gain a 5% Morale bonus to melee doublestrike for 15 seconds. Weak enemies will not always produce this effect. The killer buff can stack up to 2/3/4 times.
Sneak Attack Training 4 (Requires: Sneak Attack Training 3)
Grants +1 Sneak Attack die and +1 to hit when performing Sneak Attacks
Stat Enhancement: DEX or INT

Tier 5

Assassinate
Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack: On Sneak Attack: Kills a living target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Mod). Even on a successful save, the target takes 10d6 additional Sneak Attack damage from this attack.
Improved Assassinate (3 Ranks)
+1/2/3 to the save DC's of your Assassinate abilities.
Knife Specialization
+1 Critical Threat Multiplier with Daggers and Kukris. Daggers also gain +1 Critical Threat Range.


*Poison Strikes
Figuring the poisons might be based on the ones we have now I did a search in the localization for the descriptions... near as I can tell these are the ones it refers to.

Heartseeker Poison
Melee Poison Attack: On Damage: -1 Fortitude Save (stacks 5 times), On Critical Hit: 1d6 Constitution damage, On Vorpal Hit: Heartseeker (-5% hit points Fortitude DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier negates)

Soulshatter Poison
Melee Poison Attack: On Damage: -1 Will Save (stacks 5 times), On Critical Hit: 1d6 Wisdom damage, On Vorpal Hit: Shattermantle (-100 Spell Resistance for 10 seconds Will DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier negates)

Ice Chill Poison
Melee Poison Attack: On Damage: -1 Reflex Save (stacks 5 times), On Critical Hit: 1d6 Dexterity damage, On Vorpal Hit: Paralysis (Fort DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier negates, 30% chance for an additional save on damage)

[kierg10]

thanks for posting this

glad we rogue assassins arent losing assassinate

[HatsuharuZ]

I would give you +1 rep for this.... but I already did today. lol

Question: Are the requirements for the auto-grants an either/or, or do you need both 41 AP and rogue lvl 20 to get the last auto-grant?

[wax_on_wax_off]

I would give you +1 rep for this.... but I already did today. lol

Question: Are the requirements for the auto-grants an either/or, or do you need both 41 AP and rogue lvl 20 to get the last auto-grant?

It's definitely both. The capstone is for pure classes and you can only have 1 and that is how they're setup.

Some good stuff here.

[arcattaii]

thanks for posting this

glad we rogue assassins arent losing assassinate

Most abilities' DC = 10 + Half Rogue Level + INT mod, that means you cant kill anything and mobs save all the way, unless you are an ultimate INT build... considering Quivering Palm

[Rauven]

thanks for posting this

glad we rogue assassins arent losing assassinate

Yes and no. Unless it's a typo our assassinate DC is going to drop quite a bit under this system.

Assassinate
Stealth Melee Assassinate Attack: On Sneak Attack: Kills a living target instantly if the target fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Int Mod). Even on a successful save, the target takes 10d6 additional Sneak Attack damage from this attack.
Improved Assassinate (3 Ranks)
+1/2/3 to the save DC's of your Assassinate abilities.

Currently assassinate is DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier. If only half rogue levels are used our DC's are going to drop by 10. Improved Assassinate won't come close to making up for the loss.

[TreknaQudane]

Yes and no. Unless it's a typo our assassinate DC is going to drop quite a bit under this system.



Currently assassinate is DC 10 + Rogue Level + Int Modifier. If only half rogue levels are used our DC's are going to drop by 10. Improved Assassinate won't come close to making up for the loss.

It's a typo, which is now fixed.... you kind of get into a rhythm after a while when you keep typing the same thing.

[wax_on_wax_off]

It's a typo, which is now fixed.... you kind of get into a rhythm after a while when you keep typing the same thing.

Sweet, so +3 DC overall, nice!

Edit: +4 DC if you include the +2 int available though is the +2 int being taken out of the capstone for a wash?

[Ayseifn]

So no assassinate until level 18 now? Ouch.
5 new melee attacks? Already have way too many clickies to use in combat :/
Daggers and kukris? Meh, add short swords at least.

Not really impressed with the driection assassins have taken over the last few years, multiclassing got knocked on the heard with the assassinate(works in epics)/capstone changes lowering build variety dramatically. Shadow Dancer pushed you towards high dex/int and rapiers, with no real other decent TWF ED you're kinda stuck with it and now this.

[Brennie]

Honestly, my only concerns with this are:

Daggers are rather restrictive. Most most named daggers and kukris are not very good, or not even melee oriented, from 1-20. There are a few exceptions, but it would not be easy to use just daggers/kukris while leveling. At cap, epic midnight greetings and the new dagger from fearun (Which name i forget, but it has some pretty nice stats) could be very awesome though. Dex tohit/damage and proficiency kind of step on some of the "features" of a few named daggers/kukris though... i don't know how much of a concern this is.

Assassinate is being kicked up about 6 levels, if i'm reading this right. So assassinate and vorpal strikes are now happening at the same time, which really backloads this PrE. However, the stuff leading up to it is so good that i think this is an acceptable change.

Of the poisons, the Soulshatter one looks kinda of... well, bad. Waiting until a 20 to even get its best "helps out a friendly caster" ability really makes this ability unreliable, and therefor pretty hit or miss. Mostly miss. Ice Chill looks pretty meh as well, but better than soulshatter. And heartseeker looks pretty fantastic, especially since most of the Assassin's new abilities are fort saves.

Aside from these three concerns, I'd say the new assassin looks absolutely ballin'. More sneak attack, some new cool looking abilities, and some really nice bonuses with daggers and kukris. You can go full dex/int based, and with some half decent daggers or kukris (which there are some in epic levels now) you will be absolutely tearing some stuff up!

I don't see haste boost in here. Seeing as how I'm not entirely sure on how the new system works, woudl it be possible to pick up haste boost without sacrificing any assassin awesomeness?

[sephiroth1084]

Assassinate Was liking the look of some of this until I saw that Assassinate now comes in at least 6 levels later. Honestly, the number one reason I rolled a rogue was to use Assassinate. It's the most fun I have with the class, and pushing it off to the end of heroic levels sucks.

It was hardly overpowering in level 12-17 content, but was fun in some places. There are far more stealth-friendly quests in the 12-17 range than in the 18-25 range in which the Assassinate ability shined.

As others have also noted, sticking this so far back really back-loads the PrE, and we've got a lot of activated attack abilities here. I like having stuff to click, but between these and the Epic Destiny stuff, there's an awful lot of buttons to be mashing.

A better progression, I think, would be for Assassinate to come in as it used to, around level 12, with vorpal sneak attacks coming in at around 18, as it used to, with the improved Assassinate DC enhancements coming between the two, or at 18 also, as later advancement for the ability. I'd much rather see Assassinate replace Nimbleness as an auto-grant and have Nimbleness get included as an enhancement in the tree somewhere.
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Clicky attacks I'd really rather see some of these changed to stances, or 1-2 minute activated buffs.

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No faster sneaking? Also, why don't we have Faster Sneaking in the Assassin tree? I saw it in the Thief-Acrobat tree, which kind of makes sense, since they're all about moving fast and being light on their feat, but T-A has very little to do with stealth, whereas Assassin has a much stronger inclination in that direction. Plus, Acrobats get plenty of other movement speed boosters in one form or another. The Assassin is the PrE with bonuses in Hide and Move Silently and an ability that specifically calls for you to be sneaking--the effect deserves to be here.
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Emphasis on stealth
Adding to that, I'd also really like to see some more emphasis put on sneaking in here. Maybe something on the active attacks that notes that if you make your attack from stealth, you gain +2 to the DC of the ability, or another +1[W] damage? Or there could be a 3-tier enhancement line in the tree somewhere that specifically just grants bonuses to attacking from stealth? I know it isn't super-popular, and necessarily reduces DPS, but it's a strategy that should really be emphasized a little more than just having the Assassinate ability...something leading into that at the very least, so that you have some reason to sneak and make an attack before you get the insta-kill ability, other than that you want SA damage while soloing.

[sephiroth1084]

I know that daggers feel more "Assassiny" than rapiers do, but we have three rogue PrEs: Assassin, Thief-Acrobat, and Mechanic. One of those focuses very heavily on using quarterstaves, the other focuses somewhat (as of right now) on crossbows, and the other had no focus previously.

Rogues probably make up the largest portion of the "target audience" for rapiers and short swords, so why these limitations? Sure, I like seeing other weapons made relevant, but there are fewer worthwhile named daggers and kukris in the game than shortswords and rapiers, the dagger and kukri are weaker than the the longer weapons, which ends up being an even bigger penalty, in many cases, than you're gaining from the PrE abilities.

At the very least, the Dex to attack and damage should apply to any finessable weapon (rogues are taking enough penalties when facing skeletons and liches without also losing a ton of attack and damage because they have to use their weak Str when they swap to light maces/hammers for those fights, thanks to Knife In the Darkness and Dagger In the Back otherwise opening the door for strictly Dex-based rogues to play well). Then including some dagger and kukri-only enhancement lines in the PrE would be okay, and would allow those players who want the variety, or who come across really strong versions of those weapons to spend the AP and swap to those.

[sephiroth1084]

Also, why does T-A get this:
Subtlety (3 Ranks)
-20/30/40% threat generation with melee attacks. Does notstack with other subtlety enhancements.

And not Assassin? At the very least they should both be getting this ability (or all three rogue trees should).

Is it just to promote cross-tree AP spending? That's fine by me, if we aren't restricted to the tree limitation discussed in the enhancement change thread, otherwise multiclassing is going to be much less beneficial than it should be, as you get locked out of necessary class enhancements in order to pick up the enhancements of the class you're picking up a few levels of. With the more even distribution of some enhancements (ie., back-loading compared with the current system) multiclassing may already be taking a hit, though with all the new options it's hard to tell, without also having unnecessary restrictions on where you can spend your AP.

[sephiroth1084]

Sorry to spam the thread, but trying to avoid a wall of text post...

Also noticed that we're basically trading in +12 damage per hit on sneak attacks from our current Sneak Attack Training IV for +1d6 SA die, Dex to damage with select weapons and some triggered attack abilities with +[W] bonuses. That looks like a net loss to me.

Even if we say that you can drop Str to an 8 and pump Dex to a 20 at start, and put all build points there now, you're gaining probably 4-5 damage a swing from that ability, gaining an average of 3.5 from the extra sneak attack die (total average of about 8), though some of that applies all the time...except you're also (currently) locked into using poorer weapon choices, which means you're looking at a loss of between 4 and 10 damage a swing (when sneak attacking). That really doesn't look enticing.

[Kielbasa]

Just throwing this out there if the plan is for assassin to still be a racial tree then all of the skills that use rogue level for their calculations need to be changed to character level. Either that or racial trees need to grant you levels as if you were X levels of a specific class like how half elf dilettantes currently work.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I'm fine with the way this is looking. You won't be worse off with Shortswords or rapiers or any other weapon it's just that daggers and kukris have a bit more going for them than before. There's a fair few dex mod Shortswords and so forth so there's still a fair few choices.

Rogues are supposed to be weak against undead, the other stuff helps, so the situations improved, everything else is the same.

Strength based assassins are still going to be strong and the dagger/kukri thing keeps that in context.

The main thing that I'm hoping is that there'll be enough interesting things for a strengh based rogue to spend points on that filler points won't be needed.

[Brennie]

Rogues probably make up the largest portion of the "target audience" for rapiers and short swords, so why these limitations?

This is a good point. I didn't even think about this, in my gushing about how cool the new assassin seems to be. If enough named daggers/kukris existed to be worth using, the fairly large benefits from this PrE would cause rapiers and shortswords to almost certainly fall by the wayside. And with the way this PrE is set up, characters will most likely either skip Weapon Finesse and focus on daggers or kukris, meaning they wouldn't have the strength to use rapiers even if they wanted to, or skip the dagger/kukri benefits and go strength based (possibly with kopeshes instead of rapiers).

I've seen a bit of weapon railroading in Henshin Mystic too... I like that Turbine is trying to popularize some of the less used weapon types, but I am concerned they are doing so in a way that will simply shift which weapons are "popular", actually narrowing the field of possible choices rather than extending it (E.g. i expect most assassins will be wielding daggers or kukris, and most henshins will be using q-staves, AAs will us bows, Mechanics will use repeaters, ninja spys might even be using shortswords in preference to wraps, etc and so forth).

I will reserve judgement until an official preview, but i urge Turbine to keep weapon diversity in mind. If daggers aren't popular enough, then create a slew of daggers across the level spectrum that are of equal usefulness to rapiers. If q-staves aren't good enough, then create a lot of good quarterstaves (Like Sireth! That thing is awesome!). Trying to go about promoting "lesser" options by buffing them via character abilities will only create cookie-cutter characters and potential imbalance. For instance, a character who is so good with quarterstaves they can compete with a character who uses falchions seems like a good idea when both character level from 1-20, where good q-staves are rare, and even the best ones aren't all that powerful... however, once that qstaff user gets their hands on Sireth, they will blow the falchion user's DPS out of the water.

[Seljuck]

Where we can find this new enhancements ? They are on Lamannia?

[Tid12]

Okay, a few things:

• Don't like Dex-to-dmg for kukris and daggers only. Make it shortsword and rapier also. When shadowdancer was done, it had Dex to damage with every weapon. Why it doesn't now?
• Why all the DCs are based on Int? Make it INT OR DEX, the higher one. We are getting a Dex-to-dmg enhanc so we can focus on Dex also now, why limit the DCs basing them on INT only?
• Assassin's Trick: -25% Fort = nice. I like it.
• Shadow Dagger, T3: Totally copied from Shadow lance from Shadowdancer. Don't like it.
• Killer, T4: Sounds promising. Can stuck up to 20% Morale Doublestrike. I hope that means it stacks with everything else.
• Knife Specialization, T5: Again, as said in my first point, I don't like it being Kukris and daggers only. Make it shortsword and rapiers also.
• Assassinate at level 18: Just why? I haven't a problem with it because I'm capped and not TRing anytime soon but why would you put it at level 18? Who was it hurting at level 12?

[Ayseifn]

Sorry to spam the thread, but trying to avoid a wall of text post...

Also noticed that we're basically trading in +12 damage per hit on sneak attacks from our current Sneak Attack Training IV for +1d6 SA die, Dex to damage with select weapons and some triggered attack abilities with +[W] bonuses. That looks like a net loss to me.

Don't you mean we're missing 10.5 from the free 1d6 that each tier of assassin currently grants? SA training IV is still in there, just backloaded to tier 4. Hopefully that lost 3d6 shows up later but who knows.

I'm fine with the way this is looking. You won't be worse off with Shortswords or rapiers or any other weapon it's just that daggers and kukris have a bit more going for them than before. There's a fair few dex mod Shortswords and so forth so there's still a fair few choices.

You're probably right and drow will likely get similar buffs for shortswords/rapiers if you're really keen on using them. Double dipping is probably not what they want.