Monk: Rough-in of Henshin Mystic

[Diyon]

I was thinking... maybe Henshin Mystic should be able to use wisdom for hit/damage with staffs... would that be OP? there's already 3 PREs that we know of that use DEX and one of them also uses staffs... mix it up..

While that might be neat for just this, I don't think they should get too carried away with this sort of thing, possibly best to leave be.

[artistx]

While that might be neat for just this, I don't think they should get too carried away with this sort of thing, possibly best to leave be.

They haven't finalized the autogrants yet so it might be the direction they are already going... I can easily see Henshin Mystic being the best for chi techniqes at the cost of being limited to staffs for dps..

[sephiroth1084]

They haven't finalized the autogrants yet so it might be the direction they are already going... I can easily see Henshin Mystic being the best for chi techniqes at the cost of being limited to staffs for dps..

I'd rather they didn't change Henshin Mystic to be super-focused on using staves, the way Assassin looks with the Dex to damage abilities right now.

I like the enhancements that give you an option of making quarterstaves more worth using (not sure if they eclipses handwraps as written right now), but the PrE should be making them worthwhile, not pushing people in that direction.

[QuantumFX]

I'd rather they didn't change Henshin Mystic to be super-focused on using staves, the way Assassin looks with the Dex to damage abilities right now.

I like the enhancements that give you an option of making quarterstaves more worth using (not sure if they eclipses handwraps as written right now), but the PrE should be making them worthwhile, not pushing people in that direction.

Ditto. Though, I wouldn’t cry if they introduced some generic enhancements available to all 3 PrE’s. There are Eberron monks that specialize in quarterstaves and can do things like use stunning fist with a quarterstaff. Some bonuses for Whirling Steel Strike and Kamas would also be a welcome additions as well.

[Diyon]

Ditto. Though, I wouldn’t cry if they introduced some generic enhancements available to all 3 PrE’s. There are Eberron monks that specialize in quarterstaves and can do things like use stunning fist with a quarterstaff. Some bonuses for Whirling Steel Strike and Kamas would also be a welcome additions as well.

Agreed again. Although I wouldn't mind seeing a few more options for staff users in HM, I like that you can take it multiple directions easily.

[TreknaQudane]

They haven't finalized the autogrants yet so it might be the direction they are already going... I can easily see Henshin Mystic being the best for chi techniqes at the cost of being limited to staffs for dps..

Let's be fair here. Henshin mystic has some stuff for a staff, but it is in no way staff focused. There are enhancements to increase Staff Damage from what we've seen and one attack that uses a staff. That's it. Everything else that is an attack was a generic attack that worked unarmed or with any ki weapon.

Ditto. Though, I wouldn’t cry if they introduced some generic enhancements available to all 3 PrE’s. There are Eberron monks that specialize in quarterstaves and can do things like use stunning fist with a quarterstaff. Some bonuses for Whirling Steel Strike and Kamas would also be a welcome additions as well.

Eberron specifically had feats that let a monk use FoB with Longswords (Whirling Steel Strike), Spears (Serpent Strike), and Two-Bladed Swords (Double Steel Strike). Using Stunning Fist while wielding a staff as a Monk isn't an Eberron thing. It's a basic function of monk unarmed combat.

... A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. ...

That means even wielding a Quarterstaff, kamas, or even holding something like a sick halfling that just happened to drink the wrong potion.. the monk can always make an Unarmed Attack. Stunning Fist only requires an Unarmed Attack.. so ...Stunning Headbutt for the win.

Given the glaring superiority of Unarmed Combat for monks compared to most other weapon styles, it's laughable that they don't open up the option for all ki strikes to be used with any ki weapon. Unarmed will still be better and it wouldn't kill them to throw weapons a bone for a monk.

[QuantumFX]

That means even wielding a Quarterstaff, kamas, or even holding something like a sick halfling that just happened to drink the wrong potion.. the monk can always make an Unarmed Attack. Stunning Fist only requires an Unarmed Attack.. so ...Stunning Headbutt for the win.

There is more to the Eberron campaign than just the Eberron Campaign Sourcebook. What I’m talking about is not stunning headbutt, nor stunning kick, nor stunning elbow. They actually use their quarterstaff to do the deed.

[TreknaQudane]

There is more to the Eberron campaign than just the Eberron Campaign Sourcebook. What I’m talking about is not stunning headbutt, nor stunning kick, nor stunning elbow. They actually use their quarterstaff to do the deed.

You're thinking of Sudden Willow Strike (Players Guide to Eberron IIRC)... the problem is that feat is horrible. At all levels of a monk's life an unarmed attack is just as effective if not more so as they are both 20:x2 weapons.

You end up paying a feat to maybe add +1~+3 to your attack depending on equipment. If the monk has any sort of glover or the like that grants an enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks... It's no benefit whatsoever

Without spending the feat, they would be able to do something similiar to it anyway by making an unarmed strike to stun the target (which they can do at any time). They have the same attack range (squares) and the unarmed strike would do more damage.

[QuantumFX]

You're thinking of Sudden Willow Strike (Players Guide to Eberron IIRC)... the problem is that feat is horrible. At all levels of a monk's life an unarmed attack is just as effective if not more so as they are both 20:x2 weapons.

You end up paying a feat to maybe add +1~+3 to your attack depending on equipment. If the monk has any sort of glover or the like that grants an enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks... It's no benefit whatsoever

Without spending the feat, they would be able to do something similiar to it anyway by making an unarmed strike to stun the target (which they can do at any time). They have the same attack range (squares) and the unarmed strike would do more damage.

Remember, Turbine has turned weak feats into enhancements before. (ex. Divine Might)

Enhancement Chains: Monastic Tradition*

Longarm tradition**:
Tier I: Level 4; AP Cost: 1;
Passive: While centered and wielding a quarterstaff the user can substitute their WIS mod if it is higher than their STR mod to determine if they hit. Quarterstaff gains +.5W.

Tier II: Level 8; AP Cost: 1;
Active: Sudden Willow Strike - Required: Stunning Fist; Cost: 15 ki; While wielding a quarterstaff the user can deliver a stunning attack. (DC: 10 + Wis Mod + Tactics/equipment mods.) This attack shares a cooldown timer with Stunning Fist.
Passive: Quarterstaff gains +.5W.

Tier III: Level 12; AP Cost: 1;
Passive: While centered and wielding a quarterstaff the user can substitute their WIS mod if it is higher than their STR mod for damage. Quarterstaff gains +.5W.

Tier IV: Level 16; AP Cost: 1;
Active: Sudden Willow Strike II - Cost 30 ki;
The monk delivers a fatal attack by sending waves of vibrations through the target with an quarterstaff strike. The attack costs 30 Ki, and if it hits the victim must pass a Fortitude save (DC 10 + monk level/2 + wisdom mod) or die. This attack shares a cooldown timer with Quivering Palm.
Passive: Quarterstaff gains +.5W.

Tier III: Level 20; AP Cost: 1;
Passive: While centered and wielding a quarterstaff the user gains +1W to their quarterstaff damage and +1 Critical multiplier.


* This also opens up some possibilities for Broken Blade (aka Whirling Steel Strike without the absurd feat requirements), Flayed Hand (Kamas) and Ninja Spy (Shortswords) The +#W’s would lessen the damage profile gap between them and unarmed damage.

** I purposefully added in some of the other features. I remember Eladrin mentioning that they had some idea on how to make the quarterstaff a water stance focused weapon.

[Lord_Darquain]

I would like to say that yay, quarterstaff monks!

Thanks Eladrin & friends!

[karhon]

Personally, I feel very dissapointed with the way they choose to implement Henshin Mystic.

From what I've understood, it was supposed to focus on elemental\ki strikes mostly, and that was supposed to be it's strength. But if it hits live servers as is, or close to it, I won't even bother with it. It is basically shoehorning the class into using a specific weapon (quaterstaffs). Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against quaterstaff users, but IMO viability of quaterstaves should NOT be achieved through specific prestige classess (or Prestige class enchantments in this case) but from Feats and general enchantments associated with some specific feats.

I feel that, if they wanted to increase the viability of quaterstaff monk users, they should have made more abilities like the following:

Lighting the Candle (3 Ranks,2 AP) - Centered Weapon Stance
Two Handed Weapons gain 'On Hit:1d4/6/8 Fire damage and On Critical: 1/2/3d10 Force damage.
One Handed (wraps) gain 'On Hit: 1d2/3/4 Fire damage and on Critical 1/2/3d6 Force damage.
Your Ki generation on hit is reduced by 1.

While it favorises a bit quaterstaff users (well 2hander users to be exact, but monks are only centered while wielding quaterstaffs from 2hander list of weapons IIRC) it does provide benefit for Handwrap users, kama users etc. Basicaly it's not locking out any of the other options. Similar to how Ninja Spy enchantments were constructed.

[sephiroth1084]

Ditto. Though, I wouldn’t cry if they introduced some generic enhancements available to all 3 PrE’s. There are Eberron monks that specialize in quarterstaves and can do things like use stunning fist with a quarterstaff. Some bonuses for Whirling Steel Strike and Kamas would also be a welcome additions as well.

Agreed.

Remember, Turbine has turned weak feats into enhancements before. (ex. Divine Might)

Enhancement Chains: Monastic Tradition*

Longarm tradition**:
Tier I: Level 4; AP Cost: 1;
Passive: While centered and wielding a quarterstaff the user can substitute their WIS mod if it is higher than their STR mod to determine if they hit. Quarterstaff gains +.5W.

Tier II: Level 8; AP Cost: 1;
Active: Sudden Willow Strike - Required: Stunning Fist; Cost: 15 ki; While wielding a quarterstaff the user can deliver a stunning attack. (DC: 10 + Wis Mod + Tactics/equipment mods.) This attack shares a cooldown timer with Stunning Fist.
Passive: Quarterstaff gains +.5W.

Tier III: Level 12; AP Cost: 1;
Passive: While centered and wielding a quarterstaff the user can substitute their WIS mod if it is higher than their STR mod for damage. Quarterstaff gains +.5W.

Tier IV: Level 16; AP Cost: 1;
Active: Sudden Willow Strike II - Cost 30 ki;
The monk delivers a fatal attack by sending waves of vibrations through the target with an quarterstaff strike. The attack costs 30 Ki, and if it hits the victim must pass a Fortitude save (DC 10 + monk level/2 + wisdom mod) or die. This attack shares a cooldown timer with Quivering Palm.
Passive: Quarterstaff gains +.5W.

Tier III: Level 20; AP Cost: 1;
Passive: While centered and wielding a quarterstaff the user gains +1W to their quarterstaff damage and +1 Critical multiplier.


* This also opens up some possibilities for Broken Blade (aka Whirling Steel Strike without the absurd feat requirements), Flayed Hand (Kamas) and Ninja Spy (Shortswords) The +#W’s would lessen the damage profile gap between them and unarmed damage.

** I purposefully added in some of the other features. I remember Eladrin mentioning that they had some idea on how to make the quarterstaff a water stance focused weapon.

Agreed, though I'm again not too thrilled with the idea that such characters would be tethered irrevocably to quarterstaves, since swapping weapons would drop their to-hit and damage considerably if they go WIs-based.

I like the carrier effects you have, like +0.5[W].

In my opinion, stuff like this should follow a certain kind of formula:
Level 1ish - gain alternate stat for attack rolls on [weapon group]*. (Weapon Finesse fails here, since it has essentially a level 3 prerequisite of +1 BAB and a feat slot)

Level 5-10ish - gain alternate stat for damage rolls on [weapon group]*. (this is where Shadowdancer's proposed ability failed--it came too late to make leveling such a character attractive)

Abilities should have bonuses for the individual weapons that are being specifically targeted. For example, daggers and kukris in Assassin would gain +1 crit multiplier, +1 to crit range (on the daggers), and perhaps some other benefits, and here, in Henshin Mystic, quarterstaves gain the [W] bonuses, and perhaps bonuses to attack, or crit profile, or effects that replicate other feats (Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm here, Weapon Proficiency, Whirling Steel Strike--basically--, and Improved Critical in our existing Ninja Spy).

*[Weapon group] could be [all finessable weapons] for the Assassin, or [all monk weapons] for the Henshin. Ideally, other feats and enhancements that bring weapons into these categories would also confer the benefits, such as Zen Archery making bows monk weapons; bows should also function as monk weapons, gaining Ki on-hit, able to be used with Ki strikes, etc...

[Fafnir]

Good observations, Karhon.

I guess the problem is that min/max will lead it to favour one outcome only irrespective, unless they balance it very precisely.

[QuantumFX]

Agreed, though I'm again not too thrilled with the idea that such characters would be tethered irrevocably to quarterstaves, since swapping weapons would drop their to-hit and damage considerably if they go WIs-based.

I figured it would wind up being a “Best of both worlds” scenario for most monks. Sun Stance + Lighting The Candle + Longarm most of the time. And “don’t lose anything” if you switched over to a water for a better DC oriented stance.

And I was thinking that the advancing +W's would help lessen the damage gap between a Quarterstaff vs. Unarmed. I leave it to others to figure out if it would somehow “OP” staff builds.

[sephiroth1084]

I figured it would wind up being a “Best of both worlds” scenario for most monks. Sun Stance + Lighting The Candle + Longarm most of the time. And “don’t lose anything” if you switched over to a water for a better DC oriented stance.

And I was thinking that the advancing +W's would help lessen the damage gap between a Quarterstaff vs. Unarmed. I leave it to others to figure out if it would somehow “OP” staff builds.

My issue was mostly with the Wis to attack and damage being tied to quaterstaves. The rest looked fine.

[rapsnaggle]

I'd sure like to see hand wraps become two weapons -- One for the right and one for the left. The idea just feels right to me. Then we could have some monks logically combine a single hand wrap with a short sword or shuriken. Unfortunately, I suppose it would be too big a shake up to the existing code...

-- Raps

[maddong]

Will monks no longer get healing amp or will that be light monk shintao only?

[maximus123123]

Ten Thousand Stars will still exist in some form. It was too different from the other elemental special attacks to live in a multiselector with them (it's a self-buff rather than an attack), which is why we created a new air attack.

Currently I'm expecting to make it a feat that can also be taken as a bonus monk feat.

Since Zen Archery is already a pre req for more arrows, 10k arrows needs to be a stance granted by Zen Archery, in the same way Precise Shot grants Archer’s Focus. Leave 10k stars as an enhancement for monks for stars only.

Problem solved.

I believe making Ten Thousand Stars a granted ability from taking Zen Archery would be preferable to making it a feat on its own. And this is why:

The problem with making 10k stars yet another ranged feat for AA's is the following:

Bow Strength
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot
Shot on the Run (with Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites)
Manyshot
Improved Precise Shot
Improved Critical Ranged
Weapon Focus: Ranged
Mental Toughness
Zen Archery
Combat Archery (with 21 Dex as a prerequisite)

That's 14 feats if you try to take all the bow feats on an AA. Pretty much not doable and most people go without Shot On the Run to prevent having to take Mobility.

So making 10k Stars yet another feat that must be taken is becoming ridiculous. Sure it can be done by splashing fighter and ranger levels but trying to make an AA out of a bard, FvS or other builds is nearly impossible due to the extremely steep feat requirements that already exist. And you pretty much have to take as many as possible or the build just won't work since bow rate of fire is still too poor to stand on its own.

[Candela90]

I know this is all supposed to change BUT:

1. Does Void work with staffs? If not then this enh line is fail of the year. If it does work its pretty ok.
Reduced ki on hit is also unappealing and I doubt any will take it. Sure u get some more dmg but u get to use every other cool skills like stnning fist, EiN, Lotus etc more rare - not a good trade off.

2. I saw rogues getting to hit and dmg from dex. If it stays (and honestly I like this idea cause now they need 4 stats). Monk should be able to get to-hit and dmg from dex too.
Right now monks need:
STR - to hit and dmg
DEX - as rogues - reflex save and AC
CON - as everyone - but its also prerequisite to take earth stance higher tiers.
WIS - DC of almost eerything
CHA - DC for some light moves.


So only not really needed is int. Rogues after change will only need int and dex and con (while most other characters need only con + their main stat). While monks still 5 stats. I demand some change because righ now this is really confusing. Good monk is supposed to have 30+ stats in um... everything besides int :P.