"Endgame" mentality is spill over from other MMOs...

[Feralthyrtiaq]

...especially other MMOs without a True Reincarnation mechanic like ddo.

Yet these forums are FULL of people wanting "Endgame" this/that/and the other.

When the reality is there is no endgame in DDO.

Sure you may scrape and farm and grind and what have you for the very last +1 to the only stat you have left to get a +1 in but the reality is that is NOT going to the be last +1 you will ever want. You will never reach this mystical "Endgame" carrot you are chasing.

More gear gets introduced. People want the new gear because it's mostly "stuff" and "things" people desire and is important (as is evident by the 5 kabillion drop rate threads and endgame gear threads)

Whatever it is you want out of the game, the gear, your characters, the social interaction etc etc is going to change. There is no static "Endgame".

If you focus on this "ENDGAME" phenomenon and the last coveted +1 or w/e you completely miss the dynamic changing nature of the universe and sell yourself short.

[Chai]

The forumites specifically support different aspects of other MMO endgame mentality while rejecting other aspects of it a la carte style. For instance they continually want their new carrot to chase to be significantly better than the old carrot, but then turn around and rant about how they spent two years grinding out a full suit of old epic gear only to have that time investment invalidated when new easier to acquire loot came out which was better than the old stuff in many cases. If the mentality was spilling over from other games we should be completely used to new gear being better than old gear.

[Doomcrew]

...Whatever it is you want out of the game, the gear, your characters, the social interaction etc etc is going to change. There is no static "Endgame".

If you focus on this "ENDGAME" phenomenon and the last coveted +1 or w/e you completely miss the dynamic changing nature of the universe and sell yourself short.

Different universes for different folks ........

[Meetch1972]

End game for me is getting to completionist... and by the time I get the required classes for my first toon, there will be another 4 or 5 classes to get.

As a vaguely casual part-time somtimes flower-sniffer, I have a hard time keeping up with the stuff that's released. Keeps the game nice and fresh for me though. (Prepurchased MoTUD, and only started the content in the last month).

[varusso]

...especially other MMOs without a True Reincarnation mechanic like ddo.

Yet these forums are FULL of people wanting "Endgame" this/that/and the other.

When the reality is there is no endgame in DDO.

Sure you may scrape and farm and grind and what have you for the very last +1 to the only stat you have left to get a +1 in but the reality is that is NOT going to the be last +1 you will ever want. You will never reach this mystical "Endgame" carrot you are chasing.

More gear gets introduced. People want the new gear because it's mostly "stuff" and "things" people desire and is important (as is evident by the 5 kabillion drop rate threads and endgame gear threads)

Whatever it is you want out of the game, the gear, your characters, the social interaction etc etc is going to change. There is no static "Endgame".

If you focus on this "ENDGAME" phenomenon and the last coveted +1 or w/e you completely miss the dynamic changing nature of the universe and sell yourself short.

Every MMO -- every game period for that matter -- has an endgame. "endgame" predates even the idea of an MMO. TRing in DDO is optional and in no way negates the fact we do have an endgame. TRing is just a method of recycling current content, and in fact is part of the endgame for many players (getting more powerful toons, getting completionist, etc.) Endgame is, by definition the "end" of the game -- which in an MMO translates into level cap for the majority of players. It includes (but is not limited to) raiding, farming up high-end gear, and in DDO completing favor. There are (like many MMOs) more than one type of endgame in DDO.

The reason there are so many different posts about how endgame should be handled is that there are many different definitions of endgame, most of which are completely valid, depending on the goals of the player. If your goal is to complete every single quest in the game with one toon on elite, then once you are at or near it, you are in your endgame.

Claiming endgame does not exist in DDO is just nonsense. We have one of the most versatile endgames in the genre,

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Exchange "Endgame" for High-Level or Epic Game.

The WHOLE point was there is no "END" to the game and the idea there is an "End"game as in "No more" game is quite silly.

The only "endgame" is to quit playing. Or for Turbine to shut the servers down and go home.

Your character will NEVER be finished until you stop playing because you will always want the new carrot.

How can anyone answer an "Endgame" question honestly when the answer is just as dynamic as the Bugs in this game.

There are tons of threads on "Endgame" gear (like your game is over or there is no more loot to get when you finally get it) or Endgame Builds (like once you get there you retire).

If you have your eye on the END you will miss the now. If you only see the carrot you will miss the rest.

Or maybe a lot people's Endgame is just complaining that the carrot is too far away to reach, not tasty enough, not orange enough, not large enough or powerful enough. If you quit chasing it you might find more enjoyment in the game.

Maybe, just maybe there is more incentive to do High-Level content than just the loot or the next destiny point but everyone wants their shinies...

....I'd prefer my heal spells to hit like they should under the new SP system

....I'd like my characters to stop disappearing when changing instances

....I'd like the Complete and Total Merry Elfing Load of Stuffing that is UMD lag to be fixed

....I'd like someone to revist the weaksauce Poison Disease Changes with respect to the usefullness of Silver Flame Potions and Greensteel Immunity gear. (What a kick in the teeth this one was. Proof positive that "challenge" to the developement team equates to annoyance for the player base and not an actual tactically overcome challenge)

People scream cry whine moan and complain about the "ENDGAME" blah blah blah and want Turbine to do something about it.

How can they? When they can't even understand, let alone begin to fix some of the basic "Known (but uncared about or esoteric) Issues" on their list

[bward76]

End game for me is getting to completionist... and by the time I get the required classes for my first toon, there will be another 4 or 5 classes to get.

As a vaguely casual part-time somtimes flower-sniffer, I have a hard time keeping up with the stuff that's released. Keeps the game nice and fresh for me though. (Prepurchased MoTUD, and only started the content in the last month).

Same boat here, after 2 years of playing I'm finishing up Life #7 on my completionist quest. In that time They've added Artificer and Druid to my list of lives I need. It stays fresh enough for my rate of play and am really enjoying my Artificer life right now.

[Beethoven]

When the reality is there is no endgame in DDO.

It's more like DDO has no /consistent/ endgame.

The WHOLE point was there is no "END" to the game and the idea there is an "End"game as in "No more" game is quite silly.

That's because you substitute a RL definition to something meant in content of internet slang. Most people (and online dictionaries) will define endgame as something along the lines of making it to the final stage of the game (ie: playing at cap) in the context of online games; for most games this means you cap a toon and start the endgame (playing the latest update/expansion to grind out the latest, most uber set of gear).

DDO is different in that once you capped a toon you can
* reincarnate to recycle old content for past life benefits
* grind out the latest set of gear
* grind out (select pieces of) old gear to upgrade it to 'endgame' versions
* grind XP for Epic Destinies Twists
* any combination of the above

Now while this on one hand creates potentially extremely versatile endgame it also fosters complaints since it takes an (already limited) playerbase as splits them up even further; in many other games endgame players run endgame raids, in DDO some run endgame raids, others turn around TR, others shortman/farm easy XP quests/challenges for epic xp, etc.

[Munkenmo]

The forumites specifically support different aspects of other MMO endgame mentality while rejecting other aspects of it a la carte style. For instance they continually want their new carrot to chase to be significantly better than the old carrot, but then turn around and rant about how they spent two years grinding out a full suit of old epic gear only to have that time investment invalidated when new easier to acquire loot came out which was better than the old stuff in many cases. If the mentality was spilling over from other games we should be completely used to new gear being better than old gear.

I don't care that new gear obliterates my old gear.

If the devs had a mentality from other games, they'd consider adding 9 new quests means writing off 9 quests, not 30+

the problem is we've got the worst of both ideas.

[bartharok]

if there actually was an endgame, that would REALLY be the end. Of fun at least

[SirValentine]

these forums are FULL of people wanting "Endgame" this/that/and the other.

Then it seems you already know that a lot of people disagree with you about the endgame.

Nobody is telling you that you have to be focused on endgame. If you don't want to, then don't. No biggie.

But I'm not sure why you think you should try to invalidate the playstyle that many other people do find it enjoyable to focus on.

You have your fun, let us have ours. Live and let live.

[Chai]

I don't care that new gear obliterates my old gear.

If the devs had a mentality from other games, they'd consider adding 9 new quests means writing off 9 quests, not 30+

the problem is we've got the worst of both ideas.

More like the new raid would come out and people wouldnt be consistently able to beat it for 6 months. Youd hear about a completion here and a completion there, but 95%+ of all attempts would be /fail for a long time afterward.

Thats not the expectation in DDO, due to the many complaints that NORMAL was too hard in many raids when they were first released and when one was revamped. The expectaion is that the raid gets released, 3 different guild runs beat it handedly in the first hour after release, then argue for two days about who got the first completion. Its even MORE hilarious when players are buying stacks of raid bypasses in the DDO store and running their 20 completions in a weekend marathon session to get the strongest weapons in the game.

[Kmnh]

I did my 2 "sniff all the flowers, complete all quests on elite" lives on a rogue and on a sorcerer already. I'm not interested in doing it again, because I already know the solutions to all the "problems". There is very little variety on the TR path.

There are 2 big sources of variety in the game: Character customization ("I have these feats and these items that let me do these things") and Strategy (I can solve this encounter this way, or that way, or that other...).

Being at a low level is bad for customization. You can't use most of your items, and there aren't really that many different ways to build a level 9 melee character.

Strategy variety requires content to be challenging enough for strategy to matter - roflstomping the quests gets boring quickly. If you have a channel or guild that is looking for this, you can have some fun - there is a lot of good content in the game. But if you are concerned about xp/min you will skip all the good stuff. Try finding a PUG for at level "In The Flesh" or Litany of the Dead with optionals on elite

Playing at cap allows you to use all of your character's potential. Well, it used to before the expansion anyway. There are many ways to go about "solving" the old epic quests and raids. How do you tank the ToD shadows on a rogue? How do you solo the von6 fire island on a barbarian? How do you tank the epic lord of blades on a wizard?

DDO is at its best when it lets people be creative and daring. The TR xp farming mentality denies that.

[Thrudh]

I did my 2 "sniff all the flowers, complete all quests on elite" lives on a rogue and on a sorcerer already. I'm not interested in doing it again, because I already know the solutions to all the "problems". There is very little variety on the TR path.

I find TRing to be a refreshing change of pace, because there's 200+ quests to choose from (yes, I've done them all before), compared to 20 quests to choose from while sitting at cap (and yes, I've done them all before too).

AND... playing an old quest as a rogue is very different from playing it a sorc or a barbarian or a FvS. So that's why I think TRing is much more fun than repeating the same 20 quests at cap with the same character looking for that last +1 item.

DDO is at its best when it lets people be creative and daring. The TR xp farming mentality denies that.

Luckily, one can mostly avoid farming while TRing now.

[Miow]

I find TRing to be a refreshing change of pace, because there's 200+ quests to choose from (yes, I've done them all before), compared to 20 quests to choose from while sitting at cap (and yes, I've done them all before too).

AND... playing an old quest as a rogue is very different from playing it a sorc or a barbarian or a FvS. So that's why I think TRing is much more fun than repeating the same 20 quests at cap with the same character looking for that last +1 item.



Luckily, one can mostly avoid farming while TRing now.

Agree, to add on top of that i think they should improve the tr benefits which would bring new life to this most important aspect of DDO which i love.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

This was not an "Endgame" rant. This was not a "Playstyle" discussion.

My OP was a jab at the human drive for moar gearz moar new stuffz moar moar moar...even if that moar is +1.

When the known issues list, unacknowledged (unfixable) bugs and nerfs are degrading the foundation this game was built upon.

It may be olde but whitewashing a crumbling barn will not make it last longer.

But keep on with your w/e.

I would like to enjoy harder EE content, and learning new tactics in old raids or even to feel like trying Abbott again....

But until UMD lag gets addressed, "You are not facing...." and "Out of range...." when stuff clearly is being faced and is not out of range.

The game just stopping for whatever reason as you get surrounded and mobbed (with buffs still counting down)

Having a HOUR LONG CD of the Key to Eveningstar start even if it doesnt work.

CD on Ice Island Wands starting w/o island forming

Etc Etc Etc.

My gameplay choices are based on what I can achieve with a moderate amount of challenge even if the game fails to work properly.

If there is a chance to fail (and I have EH Solo Don't drink the water on my 22 Rogue) or wipe in quest because lack of tactics or skill or knowledge or whatever. I am fine with that.

Ug w/e.

Update after Update. Weak Bug Fixes, Ignored Issues and moar Cosmetics and Shinies.

[Saravis]

For me "endgame" does exist, its the point where you hit the pinnacle of intention with your character. I certainly TR, but I don't do so to grind out past lives, I do so to try something new, something different from what I had previously played. When I've done everything I've wanted/needed to do to get that toon as powerful as he could be within that life, that's the end of that toon; the endgame.

Certainly you can move the poles for what's considered endgame; a new piece of loot, a new challenge to face, but that doesn't eliminate the endgame for me, it merely extends/delays it.

[Kmnh]

My OP was a jab at the human drive for moar gearz moar new stuffz moar moar moar...even if that moar is +1.

As far as grind goes, DDO is pretty tame.

Look at my gear setup:

Doublestrike 6% ring, healing amp 30% bracers of Greater Parrying - random gen.

Seal of house avithoul, drow warhammer of combat mastery - bought off the AH

Challenge belt, ravager belt - both very easy to get

+8 str trinket - got on my first end reward list for the demonweb chain

CitW wahammer - got on the 2nd run.

Cannith crafted goggles.

ring of the ravager - this one took some work

Chrono helm, gloves, and cloak These didn't. I have more shards and seals from chrono than I will ever use.

The only piece of insane gear is the epic red dragonhide armor.

If you have a capped level 25 character with all destinies, it won't take that long to get all the gear that you want. Even +3 tomes are easy to get these days. It's the self-inflicted TR grind that burns most people out - my rogue is still proudly a 34 pt. build.

moar Cosmetics and Shinies.

I like the cosmetics and shinies. Art is valuable.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

/Snip I like the cosmetics and shinies. Art is valuable.

Without the foundation and innovation of agriculture and an abundance of food (for some) there would be little time left for pursuits of the Arts (or Entertainment).

DDO has a good start (Based on D&D).

The foundation needs fixed, badly.

UMD a Key (AND I MEAN MERRY ELFING KEY) gameplay ability for a lot of people SHOULD NOT cause the game to lag everytime somethings changes.

It'd be even more annoying if the game lagged like UMD except when your Attack Mod Changed.

I should be able to shoot a spell at a mob moving about in front of me and not get "You are not facing...." When I clearly elfing am facing it.

How can a mob be out of my range when I am standing 1' in front of it and have it hard targetted.

My PC rig is good Quad Core/8 Gigs, 4 Gig Video. I have no problems playing on it like I did on my old laptop with shared video memory.

Going along playing fine and bam. Just stop. Can't move. Can't cast/heal/attack. But buffs count down and mobs continue to do damage. Can grudgingly live with it in a quest. I blow my GD lid when I've waited for an Abbott to fill, make 3 or 4 attempts with good players who know the quests and it fails/wipes because of lag WHOLE PARTY LAG.

MoTU content looks awesome. Great flavor. Great gear with less grind. Much much more to do in this "endgame" over and above brickwall facesmash old epics.

TURBINES PHYSICS ENGINE CODING: WEAK SAUCE
TURBINES INABILITY TO ACKNOWLEDGE LET ALONE UNDERSTAND THE SOURCE OF GAME STOPPING LAG FROM UMD: FAIL WITH A CAPITOL ELF

MY POINT: SURE ITS SHINY AND WOULD LOOK GOOD IN MY NEST BUT THE NEST IS BUILT ON A BROKEN BRANCH

Cheers.

[Kmnh]

"not-facing" and "out of range" are usually connection/lag issues, not related to the physics engine. It happens because the stuff that you see is in a different placer on the server.

As far as these issues go, a seven year old laptop with a good connection will play better than an insane gaming rig with a bad ISP