Primal Avatar - Very very first impression

[Tiamas]

This impression is only based on the descriptions of the first tiers:



Good stuff first:

• Rejuvenation cocoon: Sounds like a decent heal over time source.
• Ephemeral Evolution: PRR source, though needs a proper scaling for higher tiers (cant check this). If it results in a maintainable 15 PRR against a single monster (bossfight) its worth it i guess.
• Stormrage: Sounds fun, again depends on the higher tiers if it is worth it.
• Sp(i)rit boon: +2 Primal stats, ok, but if it doesnt stack with primal scream which is +5 str and con and only tier 1 this is a quite weak tier 5 ability. Make it permanent or add something.

Now the rest, most stuff reads like nice things to play around with, but nothing really useful. Examples:

• Insidious Spores: 1d4 rust and poison damage every 2 seconds bla ... if there is no new enhancements that allow to buff that kind of damage it sounds pretty useless.
• Walk with the spirits: Sounds like a 30 seconds invis for 100 spellpoints.
• Eternal return: Healing effect that only works if you are below 50% health is a very very suboptimal effect imo.
• Primal travel: Jump back fast. Uhm ... might be funny if theres a nice visual effect, but ... you know, when do i really want to jump back? Ok, perhaps if someone is casting something nasty.
• Autumn harvest: 10% chance to heal 1d8 on attack (so like vampiric but only 10%) cant tell what the higher tiers are, but if this is not scaling to 30%/3d8 i cant see it being usefull. (Esp. being a tier 5 effect)
• Pet/charm buffs in general, might be my problem though as i am not a too big pet fan ;D

General concerns:
A lot of description read like: You might do damage once in a while for some time and perhaps get some bonuses to some of your abilities. I get that this is a very early preview, but especially the epic moment reads like that. If i have an ability i want to know how long it lasts, if there are ticks in which intervalls that ticks happen and how much damage they are dealing. Numbers are important here. I wont rely on a heal that says: Heals someone every few seconds quite a bit for some time.

And now about the twf related Destiny here. Lol, simply lol. At least the first 3 tiers of the effects dont add any dmg to your attacks. You get a whopping 2% doublestrike for tier 4 ability. And a totally out of place ultimate ability:

Symetric strikes/Natural Evasion
You gain +1 to your crit multipliers OR evasion. (Animal unarmed or twf only)

While i like the part that you can choose your bonus can you please tell my how you want to ever get people to use something else than kopeshes? Please tell me you forgot the "on a 19 or 20" here. Because if anyone can have a 15-20/x4 (+ x5 on 19/20 with overwhelming) Drow kopesh, i cant imagine other weapons can keep up with that.

All in all, i think there is a lot of work left in that destiny. Quite underwhelming. Except for an insane Tier 6 kopesh user ability. Though i am not sure if this one thing can make up for an otherwise (in terms of twf) useless destiny.

I still like the general idea of the natur magic + fighting style thing but the abilities seem to be created on a hangover morning.

Edit: Just to make sure this part isnt missed: I only checked the descriptions! Maybe the higher tiers of each ability are way better. Someone else may want to test this. If everything gets massively better ignore the concerns here.

[BruceTheHoon]

If it's meant for TWF characters don't be afraid to put a TWF feat requirement on an enhancement and make that enhancement worthwhile. 2% doublestrike on a tier 5 enhancement?
Please, take a look at what you did with Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Sunder, Cleave, Rage, etc. in melee destinies that are worth taking and then take a look at Primal Avatar's.
My tempest won't even be twisting any out of this sorry bunch.

I might be doing Balanced Attacks an injustice. Later tiers may include bonuses to damage, but looking again at Symmetric Strikes, I doubt it.

EDIT:
I've just noticed, that both, tier 4 and tier 6 TWF enhancements are named Symmetric Strikes. That's bound to cause confusion (again). Bug reported it.

[Cetus]

I don't really know if I need to justify this...but

I thought this destiny kind sucked at first glance. Buffing your minions? boring. Some small chance for party members to do a rather mediocre amount of dmg? bleh. Possibly the only useful ability in there was the tsunami one to twist for monks as another aoe knockdown for those that are wisdom based. But even then its a tier 3 twist...

The extra crit multiplier in the top tier isn't justified versus LD or Fotw imo anyway.

[Diyon]

Hard to say much without seeing what the additional ranks grant. Sense weakness is a good example of this. Just looking at the first rank, you say "This is a good ability, but nothing spectacular." But when you see what it does at rank 3 its a whole other story. I suspect there's some more like this hidden up in the animal/twf/unarmed line there.

Tsunami looks pretty awesome btw.

Some important things about Walk with Spirits:
-Doesn't list a duration, I suspect that means it lasts as long as you can keep spirit up.
-Says you become invisible and ethereal. That seems to imply some incorporeal miss chance in there, and I have a suspicion that the invisibility may not break on attacks, etc.

Without more details on that its either a super stealth ability, or a really awesome defensive ability also.

Dryad Elder may be nice. A summon specifically designed to help heal. Sounds like you get a cleric hireling with no scaling, in raids, and doesn't take up a party slot. That sounds like it may have potential.

Summer stroke and chill of winter look like they could be good, again, details on how they work and what higher ranks get.

Spirit Boon? Huge question mark on that one.

Storm rage looks freaking awesome if you have electric spell power. 1d100 base electric per second, DC50 for half? If they aren't lightning immune that looks like you could tear through some stuff with that.

Avatar of Nature looks like it may be beastly. Looks like master's blitz in style in that if you can keep getting spirit to keep paying for it, you keep going. That's at least +8 STR/CON, ???+damage, +50 PRR, Poison stacking dot, con damage, and AoE damage knock down every third hit. That looks pretty freaking sweet to me.

Friends of nature sounds like it might be really nice. 1 or 2 points for some sort proximity familiar-like buff to you and allies.

Depending on how quick and how far that jump backwards ability is, that could be handy.

All in all, it looks like it may be a good caster/melee hybrid destiny choice, especially for druid types.

I plan on running it on my wolf druid, I'll just need to decide whether I want evasion or that crit multiplier.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Primal Scream is a moral bonus like rage I think.

I'd be interested to know if, for the purposes of this destiny, TWF'ing includes unarmed. It'd be nice to have another destiny option for my unarmed rogue.

[Tiamas]

Primal Scream is a moral bonus like rage I think.

I'd be interested to know if, for the purposes of this destiny, TWF'ing includes unarmed. It'd be nice to have another destiny option for my unarmed rogue.

As far as i remember all "twf" related abilities said "requires TWF, animal form or unarmed". So unarmed is included here.

@Diyon:
I know that higher ranks might change the value of those abilities. But i mentioned that. And you mentioned sense weakness, sure it gets stronger, but you get an idea of what it does straight from the first rank: Extra damage when stunned and when enemy is below a certain health. Primal avatar has hardly anything that lets you assume an increased damage on higher ranks. Feel free to level up the destiny and tell us more *g*
About Avatar of nature: Yes it might be like masters blitz, that can be good or bad. Because this can mean it is an ability that needs another 3-4 months after release before its working as intended, hardly working before and even then only super situational *g* But as the spirits are per hit and not per kill (if i remember right, cant log in right now) yeah then it might be a real nice ability for melee dps. Though again it looks like the remaining destiny is lacking good stuff for nondruid-melee.

[Potta]

From the perspective of a caster/healer Druid, it looks like a very nice destiny. Might be enough to tempt me away from Shiradi infact.

The only issue I have with it is that the top tier abilities are very bland for a caster. It's supposed to be a melee/caster hybrid destiny, but both top tier abilities are melee focused. Sure, a caster can get some Con and PRR, but those benefits pale in comparison to what a melee Avatar will get, and may not even be enough to offset the movement speed reduction, which can be a death sentence on a caster.

[Skeald]

Thier is one thing that I'm not seeing, and am actually shocked not to see it, is a granted +1[W] to natural fighting damage.

This would go a long ways to help bring wolf and bear attacks up to par with other melee characters at epic levels. With every other melee character swinging 2[W], 2.5[W], and 3[W] weapons in epic levels, I have to ask why Druids in animal form get left behind.

[Diyon]

Thier is one thing that I'm not seeing, and am actually shocked not to see it, is a granted +1[W] to natural fighting damage.

This would go a long ways to help bring wolf and bear attacks up to par with other melee characters at epic levels. With every other melee character swinging 2[W], 2.5[W], and 3[W] weapons in epic levels, I have to ask why Druids in animal form get left behind.

That IS surprising. Especially since animal form melee dps is already highly focused on these in the form of their attack form spells all adding degrees of +[w].

My current look at it: Caster/melee hybrids will love this destiny. Straight up general TWFs and monks, the question is a bit up in the air. (Monks a little less because they can make good use of their high wisdom, but I still think it will be more in order for this to coax some away from Grandmaster).

I would love to take this for a spin, but I want to be able to copy over Fliethas for this if I'm going to spend time on it. Currently have all my copies used up from awhile back.

[maddmatt70]

While i like the part that you can choose your bonus can you please tell my how you want to ever get people to use something else than kopeshes? Please tell me you forgot the "on a 19 or 20" here. Because if anyone can have a 15-20/x4 (+ x5 on 19/20 with overwhelming) Drow kopesh, i cant imagine other weapons can keep up with that.

All in all, i think there is a lot of work left in that destiny. Quite underwhelming. Except for an insane Tier 6 kopesh user ability. Though i am not sure if this one thing can make up for an otherwise (in terms of twf) useless destiny.
.

Drow khopesh.. This actually makes the Drow rapier pretty awesome 12-20/x3. Will be interesting when somebody posts all the tiers maxed out.

[Vargouille]

[*]Insidious Spores: 1d4 rust and poison damage every 2 seconds bla ... if there is no new enhancements that allow to buff that kind of damage it sounds pretty useless.

Currently 1d4 + 1d4 per three levels. This will probably be changed to a static amount.

Symetric strikes/Natural Evasion
You gain +1 to your crit multipliers OR evasion. (Animal unarmed or twf only)

While i like the part that you can choose your bonus can you please tell my how you want to ever get people to use something else than kopeshes? Please tell me you forgot the "on a 19 or 20" here.

I forgot "on a 19 or 20" here.

I've just noticed, that both, tier 4 and tier 6 TWF enhancements are named Symmetric Strikes. That's bound to cause confusion (again). Bug reported it.

Definitely a bug. The Tier 6 critical damage bonus should be named "Nature's Fury".

[dejafu]

Thier is one thing that I'm not seeing, and am actually shocked not to see it, is a granted +1[W] to natural fighting damage.

This would go a long ways to help bring wolf and bear attacks up to par with other melee characters at epic levels. With every other melee character swinging 2[W], 2.5[W], and 3[W] weapons in epic levels, I have to ask why Druids in animal form get left behind.

+1 for this. It's hard to know for certain since animal form damage isn't displayed on the character or equipment sheets anywhere (REALLY hope that changes soon), but what testing I've done seems to show that nothing increases animal form damage besides specific spells - equipping an epic weapon doesn't increase the damage dice, no epic enhancements, nada.

I have a TON of fun playing my winter-wolf druid, but I'm still pretty embarrassed by the damage output. Give us a [W] or two!

[Sarnind]

I m not impressed, the druid is the weakest class in the game, first of all this class need a decent enanchment system.

[Recared]

+1 for this. It's hard to know for certain since animal form damage isn't displayed on the character or equipment sheets anywhere (REALLY hope that changes soon), but what testing I've done seems to show that nothing increases animal form damage besides specific spells - equipping an epic weapon doesn't increase the damage dice, no epic enhancements, nada.

I have a TON of fun playing my winter-wolf druid, but I'm still pretty embarrassed by the damage output. Give us a [W] or two!

Hi there,

Yes, there are a few things that increase animal form W:

* Past life monk active (purchasable feat).
* "Reinforced fists" property equipment (increases W to unarmed (not limited to handwraps) fighting (animal form attacks = unarmed attacks)).
* ED enhancements (check for instance Grandmaster of flowers tier 1).

However, it would be really nice to see some ability at least in the primal avatar ED that directly increases animal form W. It is lots of fun, I am very happy for how versatile Turbine made druid forms, but really could use a couple of W increases exclusively for animal form somewhere.

Greetings,

Gyga

[Dolphious]

I forgot "on a 19 or 20" here.

Whew, as written that ability was actually going to make for some tough and interesting choices, with this clarification it's an easy skip . Wouldn't want to strain the brain.

[claydogg73]

However, it would be really nice to see some ability at least in the primal avatar ED that directly increases animal form W. It is lots of fun, I am very happy for how versatile Turbine made druid forms, but really could use a couple of W increases exclusively for animal form somewhere. (quoting Recarded above)

I agree. Some animal form-specific melee-based damage increase, would be a great idea. The +[w] idea seems to fit perfectly. Or, form-specific un-typed or elemental damage would be an idea as well.

[Arlathen]

Whew, as written that ability was actually going to make for some tough and interesting choices, with this clarification it's an easy skip . Wouldn't want to strain the brain.

Have to agree unfortunately. Legendary Dreadnought / Fury of the Wild is still a much better bet in my book if you want a decent dose of DPS for your Melee Ranger.

Going LD to pick up +1.5[W] damage, additional damage/seeker and +1 Crit on 19-20 with Haste Boost 4.

StormRage is very nice, don't get me wrong, and oh by god will I be twisting it in to my LD ED Ranger along with some Fury bits.

If anything, adding a +0.5[W] damage die step increase to three different tiers of Primal Avatar (Balanced Attack, Symmetric Strikes and Nature's Fury) would be a massive help to Animal forms and Rangers alike for there melee DPS. The die step increase should be given regardless of the which of the other multi-selector enhancement is chosen.

THEN I would have a very interesting decision to make between Primal Avatar and any other 'melee' Destiny on my Rangers. It would also make for some very viable Ranger/Druid multi-class building, giving more choice to us as players.

[Expalphalog]

Have to agree unfortunately. Legendary Dreadnought / Fury of the Wild is still a much better bet in my book if you want a decent dose of DPS for your Melee Ranger.

Agreed.

To whomever designed this destiny: I have exactly two characters in this game: A TWF Ranger, and an Animal-Form Melee Druid. This means that every toon I have ever played are ones that are supposedly the target audience for this ED. The fact that I won't even bother with this ED is pretty telling.

Bonuses to attack? Worthless since the combat changes.
DoTs that deal next to no damage? Worthless.
100 sp for Invisibility? I don't even understand the logic that went into this one.
No die increase for Animal Forms? A huge overlook.
Wasting an Innate Slot on, essentially, a rank of Tumble? Frankly, that's just silly.

Look at LD. Nearly every ability in that ED has some sort of prereq - don't be afraid of that. Don't be scared of giving us an ability that ONLY affects Druids in animal form. Don't be afraid to require GTWF or the likes. This will allow you to design more powerful abilities without the fear of having every Tom, Richard and Harry Build twist it in.

[Potta]

DoTs that deal next to no damage? Worthless.

This isn't true. Basic math will tell you that.

It's 1d4 + 1d4 per 3 character levels, yes. At Rank 1. Oh and it stacks, 3 times. Oh and, it's actually Rust and poison damage, so it's another 1d4 + 1d4 per 3 character levels.

So lets be conservative and say it does, 1d4/1d6/1d8 per rank. At character level 25, that's 1d8+8d8 Rust Damage and 1d8+8d8 Poison damage.

You're looking at 18d8 damage on the first application of the dot. Tripled stacked, that's 54d8. An average of 216 per tick. We know that there are no spell power lines for it, but Maximise/Empower can apply, as well as Potency and Psionic boosts. Oh and another +30 spell power from the Innate. 350 is a reasonable estimate for how much spell power you'd get behind this. It could go higher, but I'm shooting for an underestimate. 216*3.5 = 756 non crit. Now, it's been a long time since I played my Cleric, but from what I remember, that's higher than a triple stacked DP.

Next to no damage? Not really.

[Potta]

Also, no mention of Tsunami yet? It's a pity Lama is down or I'd do a proper thread that actually listed the good parts of the tree too.

From memory, Tsunami is a 50 sp ability with a cooldown around 10-15 seconds. AOE Cold and Blug damage, with a Fort save for half. I think 1d10 per caster level on each. So 50d10 in an aoe. Oh and, it has a knockdown check. The DC? 10 + Char Level + Wis mod. So for any decently geared Druid, mid 50s.