Thank you for this VoD

[gerardIII]

Today I posted a LFM for VoD, 16-25, "normal, first timers welcome". We had several people join who were new to the raid and the Subterrane, it seemed like it was going to be a fun run with people wanting to learn.

I was hanging out on my airship giving out some preliminary info on the raid, like "bring remove curse potions, a stack of heal scrolls", then we filled up. I head to the marketplace, enter the Sub and immediatly notice that almost everyone was scattered on the map. I run to catch up on who ever decided a learning run was a zerging run ... people got lost, died so I decided this wasn't going to happen because some troll thought if would be fun to destroy the party.

Thank you for wasting my time, the time of others, and for making new players realize what a great veteran player base we have.

I had fun leading a learning run for ToD, especially since one of the first timers was a cleric who will probably enjoy end game and make up for the lack of healers. But now I'm really disappointed, should I put "WE LEARNIN NO ZERGIN" in my LFM?

[mr420247]

Ya been there done that

Not sure its lack of clerics end game

More of absolutely nothing for divines in end game raids

[gerardIII]

Ya been there done that

Not sure its lack of clerics end game

More of absolutely nothing for divines in end game raids

I don't play my lvl 25 FvS just for the gear in end game raids. I play because the game is fun.

[Rasczak]

That doesn't sound like a Veteran, that sounds like a Tool. The difference being that one is a veteran, the other just thinks they are and plays worse than the newbie.

[gerardIII]

That doesn't sound like a Veteran, that sounds like a Tool. The difference being that one is a veteran, the other just thinks they are and plays worse than the newbie.

They didn't play bad, they just ignored the fact this was a learning run.

[ZeebaNeighba]

"WE LEARNIN NO ZERGIN"

I like this first time I heard it...do I need to introduce it to Sarlona? Hm...

[Schmoe]

Today I posted a LFM for VoD, 16-25, "normal, first timers welcome".

Nice! There should be more of these, IMO. Sorry to hear about the pricks who ruined it, though. I'd say blacklist and move on.

[Arkat]

They didn't play bad, they just ignored the fact this was a learning run.

Gee...I wonder why.

[noinfo]

Today I posted a LFM for VoD, 16-25, "normal, first timers welcome". We had several people join who were new to the raid and the Subterrane, it seemed like it was going to be a fun run with people wanting to learn.

I was hanging out on my airship giving out some preliminary info on the raid, like "bring remove curse potions, a stack of heal scrolls", then we filled up. I head to the marketplace, enter the Sub and immediatly notice that almost everyone was scattered on the map. I run to catch up on who ever decided a learning run was a zerging run ... people got lost, died so I decided this wasn't going to happen because some troll thought if would be fun to destroy the party.

Thank you for wasting my time, the time of others, and for making new players realize what a great veteran player base we have.

I had fun leading a learning run for ToD, especially since one of the first timers was a cleric who will probably enjoy end game and make up for the lack of healers. But now I'm really disappointed, should I put "WE LEARNIN NO ZERGIN" in my LFM?

It is a shame since there are not enough learning runs. However 1 or a few people running off to the quest does not sound like they were trying to grief your quest since they are probably used to making their way to the quest. Did you request all to wait at the entrance to the sub and that all would go to the quest as a group? Did you ask the to recall so you could start the run fresh and run as a group now that they had experienced the dangers of the sub first hand?

You automatically jump to the conclussion it was a vet that started it, why could it not have been someone new? First timers in the sub have no idea how hard the explorer area could be and could easily have walked off to take a look and in any other explorer area no one would have cared. While I can't know what was and was not said in the party chat putting up "We learning no zerging" seems less than helpful "please gather at entrance of sub for further instructions" would be clear.

Finally this is VOD not HoX, not exactly the longest raid to run too. Its your raid and its up to you to decide when to call it etc, but post it here and you are basically asking for the opinion of others but to me this appears to be an over reaction, in training runs stuff can go wrong.

[MrWizard]

people do not read or understand lfms very well...and it was not clear in the lfm that is was a 'learners' run...only that first timers were welcome.

even if you did say learners run, you would still get zergers..lol

just explain the lfm as best you can in the text and then with each person that joins...

many experienced players do not mind helping out new players getting through things...

[gerardIII]

It is a shame since there are not enough learning runs. However 1 or a few people running off to the quest does not sound like they were trying to grief your quest since they are probably used to making their way to the quest. Did you request all to wait at the entrance to the sub and that all would go to the quest as a group? Did you ask the to recall so you could start the run fresh and run as a group now that they had experienced the dangers of the sub first hand?

You automatically jump to the conclussion it was a vet that started it, why could it not have been someone new? First timers in the sub have no idea how hard the explorer area could be and could easily have walked off to take a look and in any other explorer area no one would have cared. While I can't know what was and was not said in the party chat putting up "We learning no zerging" seems less than helpful "please gather at entrance of sub for further instructions" would be clear.

Finally this is VOD not HoX, not exactly the longest raid to run too. Its your raid and its up to you to decide when to call it etc, but post it here and you are basically asking for the opinion of others but to me this appears to be an over reaction, in training runs stuff can go wrong.

On the map it looked like more than half the party was in the general area of the fortress. There were experienced players in the group, they knew where they were going but they just didn't care about leaving people behind. They knew there were first timers, we were still talking about getting ready with potions and stuff.
I'd rather have the new players see how a raid party moves all together to the raid entrance than have small groups of 2-3 players following each other or playing taxi.

When I did the learning run for ToD, the experienced players took care of a few things, they didn't start runing as soon as they looted the chests. They waited for the explanations to be done, they didn't try to show off survivability skills.

It's not an over reaction. Introducing someone to a raid is a big deal, it will determine if they want to keep doing it and how they will react in future raids. People new to VoD are not new to raiding, they have done Tempest Spine, Shroud, VoN, Reaver's Fate ...

I think it's normal to expect people to not rush into things when there are first timers, like the general rule where you wait for everyone and the leader before starting a quest.

people do not read or understand lfms very well...and it was not clear in the lfm that is was a 'learners' run...only that first timers were welcome.

even if you did say learners run, you would still get zergers..lol

just explain the lfm as best you can in the text and then with each person that joins...

many experienced players do not mind helping out new players getting through things...

The LFM comment area is VERY limited, I can't put every instruction in it. on top of the raid description.


If I can't rely on experienced players to help and be patient, it's gonna be impossible to do learning runs. Maybe I should treat other players like they are mentally impaired/socially deficient, but I prefer to think that I'm playing with other intelligent social beings who don't need every simple instruction repeated twice.

[noinfo]

On the map it looked like more than half the party was in the general area of the fortress. There were experienced players in the group, they knew where they were going but they just didn't care about leaving people behind. They knew there were first timers, we were still talking about getting ready with potions and stuff.
I'd rather have the new players see how a raid party moves all together to the raid entrance than have small groups of 2-3 players following each other or playing taxi.

When I did the learning run for ToD, the experienced players took care of a few things, they didn't start runing as soon as they looted the chests. They waited for the explanations to be done, they didn't try to show off survivability skills.

It's not an over reaction. Introducing someone to a raid is a big deal, it will determine if they want to keep doing it and how they will react in future raids. People new to VoD are not new to raiding, they have done Tempest Spine, Shroud, VoN, Reaver's Fate ...

I think it's normal to expect people to not rush into things when there are first timers, like the general rule where you wait for everyone and the leader before starting a quest.

The LFM comment area is VERY limited, I can't put every instruction in it. on top of the raid description.


If I can't rely on experienced players to help and be patient, it's gonna be impossible to do learning runs. Maybe I should treat other players like they are mentally impaired/socially deficient, but I prefer to think that I'm playing with other intelligent social beings who don't need every simple instruction repeated twice.

No one is showing off going to the VOD entrance it really wasn't a challenge at cap 20. Its so common now days for people to go off and clear ahead that TBH no one expects otherwise unless communicated otherwise which from the look of it no one did. The general rule is everone wait at quest entrance area unless they don't know the way. From the sound of it no one asked to be shown the way.

I have been involved in countless of these raids and my guild has taken training runs of countless new players from back in the days of Reaver -> Shroud -> VoD -> Tod and beyond

No one is critising what you were trying to do or that you decided to call it, that is your decision to make. But communicate your expectations. If people get lost or die so what? Have them recall and lead them in. 5 min max since the mobs on teh way are going to be dead anyway.

[DrNuegebauer]

people do not read or understand lfms very well...and it was not clear in the lfm that is was a 'learners' run...only that first timers were welcome.

even if you did say learners run, you would still get zergers..lol

just explain the lfm as best you can in the text and then with each person that joins...

many experienced players do not mind helping out new players getting through things...

I agree with these sentiments!

If it was a learning run, you should've made it clear by saying that! "First timers welcome" suggests that you'll help them to learn it, but that it's not a learning experience per se.
(ie, people will run the raid, and you'll help those who are new to it)


But yeah, you could put "learning run, first timers only" and you'll get some idiot who ruins it!

[gerardIII]

No one is critising what you were trying to do or that you decided to call it, that is your decision to make. But communicate your expectations. If people get lost or die so what? Have them recall and lead them in. 5 min max since the mobs on teh way are going to be dead anyway.

Today I lead a Tempest Spine normal on my lvl 10 artificer, the LFM said "Tempest Spine raid normal, free to play. First timers welcome" lvl 9-12. First I had the quest selected in the LFM.
Some people joined but then I realized they didn't read "normal", they just saw Tempest Spine and assumed elite without reading the LFM comment. They said "i can open elite", "is this gonna break my elite streak?", "why not elite?". I dismissed them from the party and removed the "Tempest Spine" quest selection so people actually have to read the LFM comment to know what it's about.
As the party was filling, I gave clear instructions:
- get to an airship tower for an invite to a ship with resist fire 30
- wait for everyone
- once everyone is here, get in the quest, cast Haste and run to the mountain entrance without fighting

We had 1 cleric, the rest was a few non self healing characters, 3 artificers, a druid and a bard. They did get on the airships for fire resistance, but then seeing as the cleric was lagging and being slow to come to House J, they decided to go in. If I had not insisted again TWICE on them waiting for everyone, they would have started without him and me.

We completed fine, except for a paladin who decided to go fight the boss when the strategy decided and told by 3 different people was to let the tank, the healer and the puzzler go in first. "but i saw everyone go in i was the last" - yeah right, there were still 7 people behind him and they all waited til the puzzle was done.

There you go: example and personal experience showing that people don't listen to simple instructions. They don't wait when told to, they are impatient. Even if I had said the obvious "wait for everyone" in the VoD run (How's that necessary when you're doing a learning run with lvl 16-25 players? Low level new players I'd expect them to not pay attention, but higher level, that's really a big issue and not MY fault), they would have started too soon anyway.

I don't care about people being able to solo their way to VoD entrance in a guild run. I know if I were a new player I'd be scared to death alone in the Sub, people running around with freaking Living Spells and Giant Skeletons.
When doing a normal run with first timers, I don't believe it is crazy to expect people to understand this is not a zerg run.

The DnD golden rule is "always stay together", it usually also works pretty well in DDO, when you play to play and not play to work.

[Miow]

Yup always ez to lose a few stragglers in either of those raids. If people stay together it's ez, when they start getting separated it can be confusing for newer players.

[noinfo]

Today I lead a Tempest Spine normal on my lvl 10 artificer, the LFM said "Tempest Spine raid normal, free to play. First timers welcome" lvl 9-12. First I had the quest selected in the LFM.
Some people joined but then I realized they didn't read "normal", they just saw Tempest Spine and assumed elite without reading the LFM comment. They said "i can open elite", "is this gonna break my elite streak?", "why not elite?". I dismissed them from the party and removed the "Tempest Spine" quest selection so people actually have to read the LFM comment to know what it's about.
As the party was filling, I gave clear instructions:
- get to an airship tower for an invite to a ship with resist fire 30
- wait for everyone
- once everyone is here, get in the quest, cast Haste and run to the mountain entrance without fighting

We had 1 cleric, the rest was a few non self healing characters, 3 artificers, a druid and a bard. They did get on the airships for fire resistance, but then seeing as the cleric was lagging and being slow to come to House J, they decided to go in. If I had not insisted again TWICE on them waiting for everyone, they would have started without him and me.

We completed fine, except for a paladin who decided to go fight the boss when the strategy decided and told by 3 different people was to let the tank, the healer and the puzzler go in first. "but i saw everyone go in i was the last" - yeah right, there were still 7 people behind him and they all waited til the puzzle was done.

There you go: example and personal experience showing that people don't listen to simple instructions. They don't wait when told to, they are impatient. Even if I had said the obvious "wait for everyone" in the VoD run (How's that necessary when you're doing a learning run with lvl 16-25 players? Low level new players I'd expect them to not pay attention, but higher level, that's really a big issue and not MY fault), they would have started too soon anyway.

I don't give a **** about people being able to solo their way to VoD entrance in a guild run. I know if I were a new player I'd be scared to death alone in the Sub, people running around with freaking Living Spells and Giant Skeletons.
When doing a normal run with first timers, I don't believe it is crazy to expect people to understand this is not a zerg run.

The DnD golden rule is "always stay together", it usually also works pretty well in DDO, when you play to play and not play to work.

Sorry the example you gave with people in tempest spine not listening is irrelevant. If they don't listen then they are at fault. If you as party leader do not give an instruction, you are. Its that simple.

I remember when I first went into the sub after we first unlocked it. My sorc had no fear at all until it was beaten into her of from it. But that was level 16. I would bet most people new to it would also have little fear as they are so used to scaling.

Soloing to the quest itself is not zerging, its clearing, its not showing off, its not griefing etc, its part of the game and usually a public service. You don't want it cleared give instructions that state that, if they dont follow them, then its griefing.

[Battlehawke]

Remember that there are many different ways to VOD. Also, with a level 25 toons it should have been a cakewalk on norm even with half your party.. You didn't need the "tools" that intintionally where de-railing your efforts. However as the group leader, you should have made sure that those who where trying to get there... did get there.

[gerardIII]

Whoever "Disapproved" my post mind explaining why?

as the group leader, you should have made sure that those who where trying to get there... did get there.

I wasn't even in the Sub, half the party was already in the fortress area, the rest was in the starting area, dropped down and died, 1 was still on his ship because he just joined. I wasn't the one who zerged to the raid entrance, I was giving out instructions about buying curse potions and stuff.

The only way to VoD I know is through the fire barrier in the devil fortress, where you have to activate 5 runes to open it.

Soloing to the quest itself is not zerging, its clearing

The way was not clear. It's common courtesy to wait for the learning raid group to be filled and for everyone to be ready before starting. If you believe I should have said it out loud then you are wrong. I was still giving preliminary instructions about getting prepared for the raid, I wasn't telling people about how to move in the Sub, running past the first living spells and avoiding the dispel magic spots. Preliminary instructions means that people are not ready yet, for the normal learning PUG run (do I need to repeat it again? I don't care about your examples of perfect short-man runs with your guildies). I didn't even have the time to tell them to get a FF item for the first jump ...

[Battlehawke]

I understand your frustrations. Unfortunately not everyone listens, reads, nor even speaks the same language.

Be careful of those you let in your groups. As a rule of thumb once I invite someone I type and say "hi". If I get no response, I boot them. I give them a minute or two before I fill their spot for them to send a tell. Then I say "sorry, didn't think you were paying attention, welcome back". If they respond horribly or not at all, I say "sorry I didn't think you were there I filed your spot." If they can't respond to a simple "hi" they are not going to follow instructions...

As a leader though of a "teaching run" you have to give instructions to wait at the entrance "for the new people". A few may still go ahead but they probably can handle the mobs and know where they are going. If not, you will just have to short man it. It is on normal after all, with level 25's in group.

[Battlehawke]

Not sure who repped you, but I have given out too many today to "+" you. Remember that people - or + here based off of what you type, not how you feel when you wrote it. Be careful and try to not make things personal.

I got a bad rep once for saying "I love ddo" I didn't know you could appeal them back then