BYOH Deserves another thread!

[Qhualor]

Doing 18 str, 16 con, 14 int, instead of 18 str, 18 con, is in my opinion a good trade-off. You get +2 skill points per level instead of -1 at the cost of 25 hp and 1 fort.
14 starting int, +2 int tome, on a pure dps fighter (or other class that only gets 2 skill points) equals 5 skill points per level. 23 intim, 23 jump, 11 balance, 11 umd, 11 <something else you value>.
Skill points are easy to come by.

Yep, you could do that, but i like melting my enemies as i steamroll over them with my weapon. I prefer to mitigate my damage using skill, drink a few pots as i go along and done.

[Viisari]

Yep, you could do that, but i like melting my enemies as i steamroll over them with my weapon. I prefer to mitigate my damage using skill, drink a few pots as i go along and done.

Sure, that's so easy to do when the mobs have hit points in the thousands or tens of thousands and saves in the 50's. And are hitting for >150 per hit.

Versatility is what wins in this game, you can get 95% in lots of things instead of 100% in one thing.

[Qhualor]

Sure, that's so easy to do when the mobs have hit points in the thousands or tens of thousands and saves in the 50's. And are hitting for >150 per hit.

Versatility is what wins in this game, you can get 95% in lots of things instead of 100% in one thing.

Exaggerate much?

Skill is the most important thing in this game. Not gear, not damage output, not anything else. Bottle necking, pulling aggro 1 or 2 mobs at a time, knowledge of the quest and mobs, equiping and using proper gear goes a long way and damage taken is minimal. Quest boss fights arent usually too difficult, especially if you stop for a minute to prepare and plan. Raids are another story. You have people playing the role of healer and tanks normally dont fight and heal at the same time.

Unfortunately, most groups prefer to power heal and power dps their way through quests and damage intake is much higher. Skill isnt fully taken advantage of.

[Thrudh]

Pretty hard to get an 11 base if you only have a couple skill points to spend and umd is a cross skill. I guess balance isnt a skill to invest in.

Tough choices on a character build is what makes a game good.

Also FYI, putting a few points into INT also lets you drink SF potions and/or take Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. You want damage mitigation? Stunning Blow and Improved Trip are a fighter's best friends...

[Thrudh]

Yep, you could do that, but i like melting my enemies as i steamroll over them with my weapon. I prefer to mitigate my damage using skill, drink a few pots as i go along and done.

How does dropping your starting CON from 18 to 16 affect your ability to melt your enemies as you steamroll over them in any way?

[Thrudh]

Exaggerate much?

Skill is the most important thing in this game. Not gear, not damage output, not anything else. Bottle necking, pulling aggro 1 or 2 mobs at a time, knowledge of the quest and mobs, equiping and using proper gear goes a long way and damage taken is minimal. Quest boss fights arent usually too difficult, especially if you stop for a minute to prepare and plan. Raids are another story. You have people playing the role of healer and tanks normally dont fight and heal at the same time.

Unfortunately, most groups prefer to power heal and power dps their way through quests and damage intake is much higher. Skill isnt fully taken advantage of.

I agree with this... which is why I think I like Epic Elite as it is... No need for more healing options; instead people need to play smarter...

We are way too used to just steamrolling everything... when we discover we can't, way too many people ask for better healing options so we can continue steamrolling... I say start using tactics again, like we did way back in the old days...

[Gizeh]

[...]
Halfling Dragonmarks: Very limited power on a non-caster until you spend all three feats and enhancements. Good performance on a caster where you can use your metamagics to boost the earlier ones.
[...]

A Devotion item increases the amount healed by the dragonmarks too. For a halfling fighter I'd recommend crafting a ring with it.

[Raithe]

We are way too used to just steamrolling everything... when we discover we can't, way too many people ask for better healing options so we can continue steamrolling... I say start using tactics again, like we did way back in the old days...

People are not "steamrolling" everything. I would say that solo play is as popular as it ever was, maybe moreso now that Epic level quests are entirely soloable.

It still irks me that the game is so lopsided for 6-man groups, and the developers have essentially made any "penalty" for taking 6 players over 4 a thing of the past (pure idiocy). Any reasonably competent group of 6 is not going to have much difficulty with any quest in the game. The problem that crops up in 6-man groups is usually due to having 4 or even 5 competent players, and one or two who manage to activate all the traps in elite "A New Invasion."

Anyway, a bit of a tangent, but these discussions reside largely around shortman and rapid start quests (where the leader isn't waiting for it to fill). Personally, I find it laughable how easy soloing on my ranger, bard, and sorceror was in comparison with my fighter, who also has to manage a hireling to be about 2/3rds as effective.

Some classes are currently gimp, politics is just obscuring the clarity of the reality.

[Relicor_Typhoidmary]

I suggest everyone make a cleric and pug it out - they they would understand BYOH.

Pots, pots, pots, pots. Always carry pots - lesser restore, blindness, disease, curse, poison and CSW - hold on to your resist pots.

Wands and scrolls if you can UMD.

This is honestly a non issue, if you cannot sustain yourself in a BYOH - maybe you should not be there. Heck, it is only a game.

[Qhualor]

Politics definitely obscures reality.

I solo because:

1) I like to maximize xp as i level

2) I know i can handle the quests

3) Sometimes groups or individuals in groups have trouble with 1 and 2 and just easier for me to do it by myself

4) I dont feel like swilling pots all through the quest and trying to keep up with the group because zerging and xp/min has become the norm.

5) No drama to deal with

I join groups because they add a level of excitement, a chance at failure and company. Sometimes i laugh and sometimes i shake my head when groups dont utilize tactics.

[Ancient]

I agree with this... which is why I think I like Epic Elite as it is... No need for more healing options; instead people need to play smarter...

We are way too used to just steamrolling everything... when we discover we can't, way too many people ask for better healing options so we can continue steamrolling... I say start using tactics again, like we did way back in the old days...

Using renewal, my FVS self-heals for 200-250 hp every 2 seconds. I really wanted to believe that amount of healing and some defensive feats/equipment would let me stand in the middle of a pack of EE melee mobs. Not even close.

I like it Epic Elite should be dangerous.

[Systern]

Non-SP class with Wand/Scroll enhancements is the Rogue. Nothing else affects wand and scroll output unless you are an Artificer or Bard. Wanding or Scroll- healing is affected by target's Healing Amp however.

*cry* everyone forgets Bards.

[Viisari]

Exaggerate much?

Exaggerate what? All of those things are very common in epic elites.

Skill is the most important thing in this game. Not gear, not damage output, not anything else. Bottle necking, pulling aggro 1 or 2 mobs at a time, knowledge of the quest and mobs, equiping and using proper gear goes a long way and damage taken is minimal. Quest boss fights arent usually too difficult, especially if you stop for a minute to prepare and plan.

O'rly? But the thing is, playing carefully like that is quite different from "steamrolling". A group of draconic incarnation sorcs will steamroll most EE quests but other classes aren't really capable of that to such degree.

Anyway, EE's are too easy if anything if the group is up for them. Heck I think most of my EE completions have been done shortmanning without healers or casters, some with just me and another melee in the group. Arcanes have it even easier since they can solo many of the quests.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I saw someone else mentioned spending a feat on Skill Focus: UMD. Not needed:

11 ranks
5 Competence bonus (7-fingered, or e Flameward)
3 Enhancement bonus (e Big Top or e Spy Glass)
4 Morale (GH)
2 Luck
1 Profane (Spider mask)
6 Exceptional Cha skills (+1/+2/+3, on Greensteel)
5 Epic levels
--
37 total before adding Cha modifier.

Put on a +6 Cha item, and you just hit your no-fail 39. Nevermind all the other things to get your Cha much higher without spending any build points at all.

I think Flameward has +6 Cha.

Thx to you and the others who reposted the UMD stuff. Most of it is very easy to get.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Pretty hard to get an 11 base if you only have a couple skill points to spend and umd is a cross skill. I guess balance isnt a skill to invest in.

I probably would not take UMD on classes with only 2 skill points per lvl.
But I cringe whenever I dump Int on those same classes.... I really like having soms skill points on a character.

These threads have made me realise that that 11 UMD is more useful than I previously thought it was.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Wow... wish we had the old rep system so I could give rep to all of you guys.

Thx for the info.

[Viisari]

These threads have made me realise that that 11 UMD is more useful than I previously thought it was.

It's already useful for teleport and fire shield scrolls even if it's not high enough for reliable self healing.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I agree with this... which is why I think I like Epic Elite as it is... No need for more healing options; instead people need to play smarter...

We are way too used to just steamrolling everything... when we discover we can't, way too many people ask for better healing options so we can continue steamrolling... I say start using tactics again, like we did way back in the old days...

I have wanted this for sooo long now.

every complaint I have seen about epics (old versions and new EE), well.. I don't understand why people won't just slow down and use tactics like we used to.

They keep charging in, and then complain when it doesn't work...



To an earlier poster: Knowing the quest really makes a huge difference. More than any other factor IMO.

Some quests are more difficult to learn. (I still do not know the easy way to do the end fight in "in the Flesh" for instance... yet I read a good thread about it.)

But I have characters on every server... most of which are very undergeared. Yet I usually do quite well, just because I know the quests... (and have experience to use tactics too)

[Chai]

People are not "steamrolling" everything. I would say that solo play is as popular as it ever was, maybe moreso now that Epic level quests are entirely soloable.

You answer your own question here....

It still irks me that the game is so lopsided for 6-man groups, and the developers have essentially made any "penalty" for taking 6 players over 4 a thing of the past (pure idiocy). Any reasonably competent group of 6 is not going to have much difficulty with any quest in the game. The problem that crops up in 6-man groups is usually due to having 4 or even 5 competent players, and one or two who manage to activate all the traps in elite "A New Invasion."

...When you posted this.

Dungeon scaling is the reason why soloing is more popular than ever. One twinked player can STEAMROLL what a dungeon scaled for one player throws at them far easier than they can play through the same dungeon with 4-6 PUGers in the group. This is why soloing is so popular. Alot of the XP farmers who are playing the XP/minute game know they are gambling each time they PUG up rather than just roll solo knowing the game will throw far less at them.

Anyway, a bit of a tangent, but these discussions reside largely around shortman and rapid start quests (where the leader isn't waiting for it to fill). Personally, I find it laughable how easy soloing on my ranger, bard, and sorceror was in comparison with my fighter, who also has to manage a hireling to be about 2/3rds as effective.

Some classes are currently gimp, politics is just obscuring the clarity of the reality.

Some build choices are gimp, like going 100% offense 0% defense. The diminishing returns nature of the game makes it so we can sacrifice 5-10% offense for 50% better survivability.

[Qhualor]

Exaggerate what? All of those things are very common in epic elites.



O'rly? But the thing is, playing carefully like that is quite different from "steamrolling". A group of draconic incarnation sorcs will steamroll most EE quests but other classes aren't really capable of that to such degree.

Anyway, EE's are too easy if anything if the group is up for them. Heck I think most of my EE completions have been done shortmanning without healers or casters, some with just me and another melee in the group. Arcanes have it even easier since they can solo many of the quests.

Yeah, i was talking about levels 1-20. Epics are a whole different ball of wax. I dont figure in epic levels because im not even close to getting back into it. Im too busy tring for PL. Besides, EN can be soloed unless you are new to it. Some EH can be soloed with a little skill and EE can be soloed but you have to be extremely good. Most times there are healers in the group, some will be a teamplayer and help out and i am able to be self sufficient without umd on my fighter and barb, but still able to heal others and raise dead when in a pinch with clickies.

Playing carefully and still being able to kill quickly and efficiently is not a bad thing. I know my characters strengths and weaknesses. If i can quickly kill a small mob at a time as i make my way through the quest with little damage taken, i will do it. If not, than i will be careful and bottle neck or whatever i need to do to limit my damage intake. I can still steamroll and play smart at the same time.