Magic Resistant Enemies

[Worldcrafter]

I'd like to see them in the game again. Things like the older golems, where most damage spells did horribly piddly damage, if any and maybe one or two that did decent damage, but usually still reduced. I'd also like to see more like that. Not just monsters that have an immunity to a single element or something like that, but actually reduces magical damage suffered. They could be designed with somewhat lower health and AC, making it more ideal to beat on them.

I'm not suggesting they be scattered throughout every dungeon, but encountered frequently enough to keep casters on their toes, much like how traps pop up fairly frequently. Some dungeons may even be more themed with magically resistant foes, making it more of a challenge for casters to go through. I personally think this would help bring some balance to the game, as well as offer it more variety and challenge.

[soulaeon]

Considering how ridiculously overpowered warforged pale masters are: SIGNED.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Considering how ridiculously overpowered warforged pale masters are: SIGNED.

How is a WF palemaster any more OP than a dwarven palemaster?

[soulaeon]

How is a WF palemaster any more OP than a dwarven palemaster?

Can dwarves be wizards? I've never seen one. Do they have the same immunities as warforged? I would assume that would be the difference. One could still say pale masters in general are overpowered, because they literally can fill every class role in a group without having to sacrifice any of their build to do so, and that is considering the changes they made to Tenser's Transformation.

[CaptainSpacePony]

WF immunities and PM immunities are pretty redundant. Furthermore, in undead form, PMs cannot be healed or repaired.

So basically, all a WF PM gets (vs other PMs) is more con... like a dwarf, but with a wis penalty and stuck with docents instead of robes.

[soulaeon]

WF immunities and PM immunities are pretty redundant. Furthermore, in undead form, PMs cannot be healed or repaired.

They can be healed by negative energy effects, which stack with each other. So one can, and there has been, have an entire raid of just pale masters, or simply one can fill any class role in any group without any significant change to feats and enhancements (zero as far as I can tell).
My point is that it will be nice to see content that can counter an overpowered class choice without actually changing the class itself. New monsters to shake up casters would be a nice change.

[Ilindith]

That feel when Cholthulzz is no longer fire immune...

[Kinerd]

We would just use Ice Storm and Disintegrate more (again). You could arbitrarily make those not do damage either, but at that point it would just be spite.

The good way to balance is to give everyone a strength, not take away the strong one's strength.

[licho]

As a side note:
It would be nice to see some Ice Themed End game with great xp and epic loot.
Since it seems that ice is the way of win outshinning other elements, it would be nice to give a fire a second wind in end game.

[Worldcrafter]

Spite would be having no way to circumvent the monster's resistance to spell damage at all, demanding that these enemies be in almost every quest, and they can seal off spell casting - or better yet, DoT that drains SP that would be spite. As it is, even with a "magic resistant" enemy, clerics can still step up to help deal with them with using weapons and self-blessings, and with the new changes to Tensors, Arcanes have something of a work around if they don't have the appropriate type of spell on hand, and still have reliable self-healing options. And there's always the option of using more martial-focused summons or hirelings.

The problem is not giving everyone a strength - they already have their own strengths - but it is that the strength of magic far overshadows the strength of non-magic. With the exception of bard, arcane casters are supposed to be "magic artillery" - they can use magic to directly decimate enemies or completely change the course of the battle, and at this, they are successful. Their combat and utility abilities are supposed to be offset by having low HP, limited self-healing (a few spells that grant temp HP), and a limited amount of spells.

DDO circumvents the limitations of self-healing and the limitation of spells. This is not a bad thing, as it has to adapt to an MMO. But those limits of healing and spells were one of the power balances. With the inclusion of SP potions, they circumvent one of the balances. With either PM, UMD, or playing Warforged, the other balance is also circumvented.

Please don't mistake me, this is not a cry that "Casters are OP, yo!" but rather an attempt to bring more diversity, thought to preparation, and a mild attempt to bring some balance to the game. There are some dungeons where it's really smart to bring a rogue; I would see this idea is simply a variant evolution of this, there are some dungeons where where it's really smart to bring martial over magic.

[jandhaer]

when searing light and divine punishment are being thrown around or forgetful divines are placing those marks that explode for 1k light damage on mobs when killed , a WF palemaster can go out of form and still be able to heal himself with no problems where the dwarf is gonna have to start yelling HJEAL ME XD

[goodoldxelos]

I've had this debate before but palemasters are not better than archmages...

[Brennie]

I disagree with this idea. Although I am all for teamwork, and challenges that break up typical hack'n'slash ('n'wail'n'nuke) gameplay, having creatures which practically invalidate a third (Yay, I'm inventing statistics!) of the class/builds in the game doesn't seem to be a good way of doing it. To me it woudl be no different thyan having enemies with impenetrable DR who are immune to all melee tactics and weapon based abilities, who must essentially be DoTed to death.

While yes, a wizard or sorc or caster druid or evoker FvS *can* break out a melee weapon, chances are they have discarded anything that even remotely resembles a DPS weapon long ago. Forcing a caster to melee because they literally have no other options is about as fun as forcing a barbarian to use a crossbow to take down a redname. Any group made up primarily of casters would likely find themselves "Stuck" against these enemies on any kind of higher scaling/difficulty level, while solo casters could potentially even get stuck on normal. Or you make them fragile enough that a 10 strength sorcerer with a +5 thaumaguroligical staff could beat it down (who doesn't have tensers on his spell list, because he has spells that DON'T cause him to suck), meaning any half-respectable melee would cut through this obstacle like wet tissue paper.

For caster challenges, whynot have something like some Orange named minibosses with cohorts (or devices) that provide an anti-magic shield on the miniboss. For casters to attack the big bad, the party would have to clear out Shielders first (As sort of a different take on the "Take out the healers/casters first" ploy). This would inhibit casters, but still allow them an avenue to use their casting power to end an encounter.

[glowbug]

Turbine actually did you a favor (not me, but you) by making the new druids curse quests full of wisps, who have a racial immunity to acid / electricity, and 50% absorb to most other kinds of magic (except force and negative).

http://ddowiki.com/page/Will-o%27-Wisp

[Worldcrafter]

There are existing instances where bosses or even mobs have outstanding DR, where if you are not prepared and have the right weapon to break DR, a non-martial character is just whittling away at them. Even a martial character might not have enough "oomph" to bash through DR and get only some whittling in. And conversely, there are enemies who, although lack DR, can spam powerful, full life-replenishing heals. If you don't have enough DPS, a single one of these can take an annoying amount of time to take down, let alone if there are 2 or 3 around that share heals.

Through my own experiences, my Stalwart Defender was running an elite Raid the Volkuurim with a healer hireling in tow. He was level 13 at the time, matching the level for elite. I came across two of the prophets and a named, and they ended up a futile effort. I could put in the hurt, but just not enough; when it got down to that last 10%-20%, two or all three spammed healing. I ended up recalling, taking a bit to cool off, and simply went and bought the right tool for the job - a vorpal dwarven axe. Swapped to that when 2 or more of the healers got aggro'd, blazed through the quest with the same ease I normally found most of the quests.

People will run into things that their build is not ideal to face, that is a simple fact of quest diversity. Almost all of the melee-oriented characters I know have some form of ranged weapon on them, be it a bow or thrown, simply because there are situations where there are archers up high somewhere, out of melee range. Rest for the Restless has a mandatory part, where you have to kill all of the skeletons in a room before the door opens, including a set of archers up top. If no one in the party has any form of range (unlikely, but possible), this means the quest cannot be completed. There are other sections where there are levers that must be shot or the quest can't advance. These situations invalidate a melee's build, yet if someone were to complain, the most likely suggestion would be to "get a bow."

Asking for enemies to be resistant to most forms of magic is simply an extension of this, and requiring casters to be a little better prepared - whether it means having the right kind of spells the target is vulnerable to, having Tensor's in case you don't have or forgot to grab them, having summons or hirelings to do the dirty work for you, or simply having a "back up" weapon somewhere in your backpack (if not random "vendor trash" you pick up during the quest). And while I don't imagine that such monsters would be pushovers, I don't see them having high DR or terribly high HP. Melee oriented characters would rip through them fairly quickly, but less-inclined characters would still be able to whittle through them.

As for the suggestion of having shielding mobs or items, it could be interesting to see depending on how they are incorporated. It'd be very tricky to get them "just right," though. Unless the mobs had a lot of HP, most casters would just single-nuke or AoE-nuke them into oblivion with a spell or two, or use insta-kill spells. If they do have high HP and are immune to insta-kill, casters will just lob a few more spells; meanwhile, non-casters are punished more because they also have to deal with these mobs, unless they disappeared/died when the orange name died. If they disappeared upon orange name death, I could get behind the idea better.

[Syllph]

I wouldn't mind seeing a Nishruu in ddo

http://www.lomion.de/cmm/nishruu.php

[licho]

Forcing a caster to melee because they literally have no other options is about as fun as forcing a barbarian to use a crossbow to take down a redname.

Wait, You describe my feeling each time im on melee and im in one of this "archers on platforms" quests, like Maroud Mines or Acute Delirrium. ;-) But this probably another topic, and result of bad idea which is Bow Strenght feat.

As for all "nerf them all" i would rather see some serious buffs among the not full casters:

Everyone can make use of some pots/feats/items which increase sustain.
Rangers/Paladins/Bards deserve better spell selection, as well as PrE adjustment (buff, finish, merge).
There could be more tactical feats so fighters may choose from something.
The vorpals could be a little more scary.
Bow strenght could be autogranted with profficency so no-caster could pewpew when quest design really calls for that.

And there is probably more.

The whole casters vs melee discussion would look different if in last patches was more love for melee. (PRR and Dodge is nice but this is just a 1st step)

[Worldcrafter]

... what would Salt Ray do to a Nishruu?

As far as Magic Resistant Enemies, I don't see it as a nerf myself; the casters are still just as effective against everything else as they normally are. The addition would just mean they'd have to deviate from their normal selections of hotkeys that nukes most everything else. Also, because casters wouldn't be dishing out tons of damage with their spells, the HP totals for these enemies do not need to be grotesquely bloated, thus making it more reasonable to fight them with melee and ranged.

[Khatzhas]

I'd rather see things balanced properly overall rather than just introducing "gimmick" encounters designed to shut off entire classes in a few specific instances.

[Worldcrafter]

Pray tell, are PMs shut down when they come across undead, simply because their negative damage and insta-kills do not function on such mobs? Should Taming the Flame be removed due to the added difficulty Fire Savants have? Not only is their most powerful ability completely nullified, but they even suffer penalties to the element best suited to the environment.

In these instances, casters ready other spells or plan some sort of alternative to bypass these hurdles. Having magic resistant enemies is simply another step beyond "switch to secondary element." I do not see adding resistant enemies as completely shutting off a type of character - like golems of old, they each had some spells they were vulnerable to, or at least take greater damage then the others. A melee who refuses to change out of their weapon for one of the appropriate DR breaker has to do with reduced, possibly crippled or no damage at all; why should casters be exempt from this, especially when their options take no inventory room? Why is this a bad idea simply because someone doesn't want to ready different spells/have other options on hand for running into such instances?

There are only two ways to achieve balance - to have each character good at the same thing, or have each character good at some things, bad at others, and have the frequency of both enough to justify them. The first results in cookie-cutter characters, and in my personal opinion, boring. In the case of the second, it means that there have to be some opponents that melee are more effective at dealing with then casters can. Ergo my "gimmick" being suggested.

I am not claiming that this is a great resolution that will balance everything, though I do think that this will add some balance, without reducing any existing power to casters. However, I would love to hear what is the proper way to balance the classes.