New Difficulty Setting: Valorous ((2.0))

[shadereaper33]

Out of all of your "reward" schemes you wrote up, I like number 2 the most, though I would add the following to it: The "valorous" items obtained this way have unique weapon/armor skins that ONLY appear on valorous gear. Would give a bit more oomph to the rewards, as people using the gear would be readily identifiable, for those who care about that kind of thing.

[Mastikator]

Valorous is completely separate from BB and streaks. You can do Valorous in any order in regards to the other dif settings and it will not affect your streaks in any way. You can do it first, last, or somewhere in the middle (or even not at all) with no change to BB whatsoever.
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What about regular repetition penalties? Is this potentially an xp-farm for the hypertwinked?

[varusso]

Out of all of your "reward" schemes you wrote up, I like number 2 the most, though I would add the following to it: The "valorous" items obtained this way have unique weapon/armor skins that ONLY appear on valorous gear. Would give a bit more oomph to the rewards, as people using the gear would be readily identifiable, for those who care about that kind of thing.

Yeah, I would like to see Valorforged items have unique appearances as well, just not sure if it would be worth it for the art department's time, plus it would slow down the process of getting it into the game. The items from option one should definitely be unique, but any others -- thats a a bit iffy, I think.

What about regular repetition penalties? Is this potentially an xp-farm for the hypertwinked?

From the OP:

* Valorous does not count toward BB or streaks, nor is it affected by them, but it would count toward repetition counters.

Players could still farm Valorous instead of a different setting (remember, its base is more than Elite, so it is worth more on a farming run) but I think its challenge rating would be too high for an efficient XP/min farm (as compared to lower dif settings) beyond one or two runs, even for the really uber-minded toons.

[Vezuial]

This would also make many builds more viable in comparison. Specifically, it makes it harder for blue bars to simply walk through the quest without spending resources. In current dif settings, a mage can just mana-dump their way through the quest solo. With multiple shrines and dungeon scaling working in their favor, it makes it a breeze. With NO shrines to recharge and full-on scaling in effect (not to mention higher DCs) it means the mage has to be more selective of how they use their spells, and likely wont be able to solo it without using resources. The other option is for them to hop in a group and work with others to get it done.

I can see where you're coming from, but I'm afraid your approach would lead to having a 'caster friendly' difficulty and a 'melee friendly' difficulty, and players would react accordingly (except Artificiers, who would be fine with both). I simply don't think that this is a good approach for fixing the balancing issues (which I won't argue).

What you're looking for (i think) is a difficulty setting that requires a balanced group. I consider one of the best things about DDO that I can solo stuff if I don't want to group now and then, but I could see why a group-only difficulty would be a good thing. So wouldn't it be a more fun approach to have unique buffs to the mobs that make them particularly effective against certain classes / class concepts? Starting with elite, buff mobs at random with effects that e.g. slow/disable your casting when you're hit, provide instant-kill immunity or increased defense against ranged etc? I know this idea has been discussed before and will be very, very hard to get right, but I think it would be a better way to go and more fun for the players - especially if it adds a bit of randomness to the game.

[varusso]

I can see where you're coming from, but I'm afraid your approach would lead to having a 'caster friendly' difficulty and a 'melee friendly' difficulty, and players would react accordingly (except Artificiers, who would be fine with both). I simply don't think that this is a good approach for fixing the balancing issues (which I won't argue).

What you're looking for (i think) is a difficulty setting that requires a balanced group. I consider one of the best things about DDO that I can solo stuff if I don't want to group now and then, but I could see why a group-only difficulty would be a good thing. So wouldn't it be a more fun approach to have unique buffs to the mobs that make them particularly effective against certain classes / class concepts? Starting with elite, buff mobs at random with effects that e.g. slow/disable your casting when you're hit, provide instant-kill immunity or increased defense against ranged etc? I know this idea has been discussed before and will be very, very hard to get right, but I think it would be a better way to go and more fun for the players - especially if it adds a bit of randomness to the game.

The majority of players *HATE* anti-class buffs to mobs (such as the old blanket immunities in epics); I am one of them. Also, the intent is to leave the current game settings alone. I do not want my game being altered to cater to the folks who find it "trivial". With an entirely new setting, the devs would have alot more leeway to tweak and adjust without disrupting the flow of the main game settings.

I wouldnt say that Valorous would be a MUST group setting, but it would certainly be much harder to solo, particularly on the "usual" solo classes -- blue bars -- since the lack of rest shrines means they have to be more judicial in their choices about just blowing SP. But then again, there are 4 other difficulty settings that can be soloed, so I would be fine if Valorous DID end up "requiring" a group. Of course I am sure some overly zealous individual would still find a way to solo them all, so who knows? (Hmm, guess we need to counter invis and other such abilities to prevent the inevitable invis-zerg...time to edit the OP).

My actual bigger concern here is the bloated HP, in that it would still shift the field toward insta-kill casters. But the increased DCs should help balance that out, giving melees a chance to beat the mobs down with DPS. I want to make it as fair as possible for all classes to actively participate, if their toon is actually up to the challenge in the first place.

[SiliconScout]

Ok wow .. that is a lot of thought into that I will give you.

Here's what I got out of that though. Basically the idea is that, for some, the game is just too easy and they want challenge.

The challenge for this is that if you just make it just like elite +1 or some such it will simply become the "must" run.

And obviously those who need this uber hard setting need some way of wagging either e-peen at those who do not or cannot however whatever the reward is we must be careful that it's not "required" else it will simply become the "must" run setting which we want to avoid.

So in a nut shell we want a setting that will challenge the hard core, have a reason to be run but not force those to try to run it who cannot.

Most of what is proposed isn't bad, but it is complicated and therefore likely to be significant work. You are talking about adding content that a minority of the player base want or will likely even be able to complete. So realistically while it's fun to talk about it's never going to happen. They want to be spending their time rolling out new content that everyone can enjoy, it's obvious.

So then what we really need to ask is how can we propose something that will scratch the itch but require minimal work on the devs side. Basically be something that can be phased in with the next UI update /change with minimal effort on their part.

To that end I would suggest that "Valorous" work the following way.

Additional Challenge:

• Make the quest level = to Base +4 (this is x2 the elite setting)
• Allow one shrine per toon per quest, some don't change but for most this would be significant
• No hirelings (it's treated as a raid there)

Avoid the "Must Run" Senario (bear with me here)

• Quest XP = Elite Quest XP
• Quest Favor = Quest Elite Favor
• Streak = Counts as an "Elite" completion

E-Peen Gratification

• Loot = Elite Loot +2
• Completing all Valorous quests adds "The Valorous" under the players name above the guild name

To me this works the best in that it should be easy to code.

You get the "completionist" idea in that getting them all is a name change that everyone can see and you get a +2 Loot boost which is great but not unbalancing.

In this way then you have reasons to run it, the challenge for those who what it with a reward that is substantial but not unbalancing or likely to become "required".


Not having said all that I am sure those clamoring for the uber hard settings will find the rewards lackluster but honestly if +2 loot isn't good enough then what they really are looking for is something that shouts to the world not only am I better than all of you I am so much better than you they had to make me even better. Honestly you will never please that mentality so why bother trying.

[varusso]

The challenge for this is that if you just make it just like elite +1 or some such it will simply become the "must" run.

And obviously those who need this uber hard setting need some way of wagging either e-peen at those who do not or cannot however whatever the reward is we must be careful that it's not "required" else it will simply become the "must" run setting which we want to avoid.

That is exactly the idea, and its also what makes balancing the whole thing so challenging. It has to appeal to the ubers, provide a challenge and reward adequate to their desires, it has to NOT drastically alter the power landscape (even though powercreep makes that inevitable anyway) and it has to be attractive enough to non-uber players to make it appealing to a larg enough segment of the playerbase to make it worth doing (for the devs). Which means it has to be doable by non-ubers if enough effort is put into it, while not trivializing it for the ubers. Hence the suggestion to set the scaling at 4 and leave it there -- ubers can go in with fewer people, non-ubers with more people to "equalize" the challenge a bit. It should still be very hard for a group of 6 non-uber players to complete, but it should be possible.

Additional Challenge:

• Make the quest level = to Base +4 (this is x2 the elite setting)
• Allow one shrine per toon per quest, some don't change but for most this would be significant
• No hirelings (it's treated as a raid there)

Jacking up the quest level actually makes it easier, because it means the toons can be +4 over the base quest level and still run it. That means more abilities and resources available to them. Keeping it at the same level as Elite restricts the power they can bring into it. The content itself can be modified to the devs' delight without ever touching the quest level. This means the folks who are lacking challenge on elite would would be fighting a much tougher quest at the same level as they would if they were Elite streaking. Follow what I am saying?

Some quests already only have one shrine, so it wouldnt be as restrictive. I could see having single shrine quests go to no shrines, and all other quests have their shrines reduced (Elite Diplomatic Impunity vs N/H already uses this technique), or at the very least having all shrines in all quests reduced in efficiency to say 25~50% recovery. This is something that can be experimented with and tweaked in Lama land to find a good balance.

Hirelings are already disallowed in the OP

Avoid the "Must Run" Senario (bear with me here)

• Quest XP = Elite Quest XP
• Quest Favor = Quest Elite Favor
• Streak = Counts as an "Elite" completion

If you allow Valorous to count toward favor and streaks, it would become the new must-run, as it give all of the benefits of running Elite and then some. Thats why I have it specifically set aside, so as not to interfere with all that. To anyone who can handle Valorous, there would be no incentive to run Elite (other than the first time bonus) and everyone else would be pressured to run Valorous in the same way they feel pressured to run Elite now. The results (especially in the first few months) would be disastrous.

E-Peen Gratification

• Loot = Elite Loot +2
• Completing all Valorous quests adds "The Valorous" under the players name above the guild name

I actually like this idea. One thing DDO is missing is titles. Of course there is already alot of stuff crammed in over our heads as it is, but why not? At the VERY least it could be added to our Bio sheets, and another unique symbol on our overhead displays, mush like TR wings.

As for ease of coding -- they already have the template for adding new dif settings. All it really requires is "copying" the template and tweaking some figures. Beyond that, play testing to get the numbers right. Even the rewards I have suggested are really just modifications of existing tech. Changing anything will of course take effort and require some bug-squashing, but its a P2P addition to the game, so that is really no different than any other content they add.

[Vezuial]

Don't want to hijack your thread, just wanted to respond to this aspect real quick:

The majority of players *HATE* anti-class buffs to mobs (such as the old blanket immunities in epics); I am one of them. Also, the intent is to leave the current game settings alone. I do not want my game being altered to cater to the folks who find it "trivial". With an entirely new setting, the devs would have alot more leeway to tweak and adjust without disrupting the flow of the main game settings.

Oh, i hated the blanked immunities as well. In fact, there's a bunch of quests that are almost impossible to complete if you're a sorc on the 'wrong' spec. Really bad design. Still, the thing about blanket immunities is that Turbine has indeed been using them as just that: blanket effects. Make all the mobs in a quest immune to instant death and you're basically putting up a 'go away' sign for pale masters. Make all mobs frost immune and the water savants won't even have to try. Still, having some mobs in the quest (relatively) immune to my primary attacks, leaving me to rely on others and maybe just help out a little, while I'm still being effective most of the time, just adds flavor to the game. Group encounters can actually require an added amount of coordination, you can allow (or force) every member of the party to contribute. Add a grain of randomness in there as well and you'll actually require skill and communication. Anyway, just my 2 cents...

[Ungood]

It's a hard thing to see someone put so much effort into an idea and then see it go under fire. However, I have to say I agree with this.

The game is easy for some people because they chose the route that would make their characters powerful enough to make the content easy. Making the game easy IS the reward. If someone takes that path and then complains the game is too easy, they are just selfish whiners, plain and simple.

One of the driving forces behind why players run content is to make their characters bigger better, badder, and the attractiveness of an MMO is to then be able to brag about it. If they did not in some way make the content easier by their efforts, then in relaity their is no point to do it. Players grind current content for items to be stronger to make the next quest easier.

If a player wanted challenge they would simply not grind for gear, and do only what was needed to level, and not one quest more. But players don't do that, they run the same quests dozens of times in search for a single item to give them an edge in power. In fact, if not for the attractiveness of more powerful gear, most quests would be left undone, by anyone, ever.

Normally, when I see people complain about a lack of challenge, that is not what goads them, it's a need for exclusiveness, Hence the Old Cliche "The Best Drop rate is when I have it and no one else does"

In this case, for players it seems the best challenge is when they can do it, and no one else can.

For those kinds of players, new content is really the only solution, so they can be out there on day one getting their stuff before anyone else and then bragging about it.

This setting as you put it, might attract the few honest challenge seekers, like people who play Perma-Death, already, and I am sure the members if Mortal-Voyage would buy such a setting (especially if it was Perma-Death as well). But by and large, it would avoided like the plague by the players who complain about a lack of challenge, because they are also the very same people who complain about a lack of rewards for their efforts.

However, I will admit, I like the idea of being able to earn cosmetic items/fluff from Turn in's. That would be pretty cool, if they put in some means to gain special cosmetic armors and what have you from quest chain rewards, like maybe an armor-kit that that looks like Silver Flame or Emerald Claw armor for doing the Necro Amulet Turn in quest.

In that regard, I think you have hit on something really good.

[varusso]

Thanks Ungood. However, this part simply is not true:

If a player wanted challenge they would simply not grind for gear, and do only what was needed to level, and not one quest more.

The draw of any game, MMOs especially, is to build the better mousetrap in the form of a toon. Build it, gear it, send it out into the world to gather all the bright and pretty shinies it can, swap out the new goodies, and look for the next hill to climb. No one plays their toons just so they can "do it all and retire" -- well almost no one. We all play to better the toon vs our current challenges, then when we have done all we can do there, we look for the next challenge -- and we expect to be able to take all our shinies with us, and we expect that challenge to be proportional to the baubles we have already collected. Without a constant upward fight, the majority of players get bored and quit. They go to another MMO where they start the cycle all over again.

Saying that folks wouldnt grind gear if they wanted a challenge is just silly. Of COURSE they will grind gear. Loot is one of the primary drives behind all MMOs, because players WILL seek it out to make their toons more powerful -- then look for something more powerful to smack aroudn with that same gear -- for bette rloot...

[Ungood]

Thanks Ungood. However, this part simply is not true:

The draw of any game, MMOs especially, is to build the better mousetrap in the form of a toon. Build it, gear it, send it out into the world to gather all the bright and pretty shinies it can, swap out the new goodies, and look for the next hill to climb. No one plays their toons just so they can "do it all and retire" -- well almost no one. We all play to better the toon vs our current challenges, then when we have done all we can do there, we look for the next challenge -- and we expect to be able to take all our shinies with us, and we expect that challenge to be proportional to the baubles we have already collected. Without a constant upward fight, the majority of players get bored and quit. They go to another MMO where they start the cycle all over again.

Saying that folks wouldnt grind gear if they wanted a challenge is just silly. Of COURSE they will grind gear. Loot is one of the primary drives behind all MMOs, because players WILL seek it out to make their toons more powerful -- then look for something more powerful to smack aroudn with that same gear -- for bette rloot...

This validates my point that new Content is the only way to placate these players.

Case in point, before BB and Streak, elite was entirely "optional" in the TR scene, in fact, quick zerg grinds of high exp/low difficulty quests were the norm. Players did not want to be slapped around, they wanted to get to a destination, IE: Back to Cap to get the raids again or Through this Life and on to what they perceived to be a better one. I hate to say it. but, it's destinations that move players, Goals, either short term or long term. "My TR Project" ... "I need to get this bauble to finish my build" etc and so forth.

Which, while I see what you are trying to build here, and to be honest, I'd buy it and run it for the loots, but then again, I am a sucker cosmetics, and worthless fluff for my toons. but, I would not look into it for "hey I need challenge"

There are some players that do in fact seek challenge, like PD Guilds are a prime example of this, and I am sure they would love it as an alternative to Elite.

And I'll be blunt, that would be a good sale. PD's are in fact looking for something like that, a Name Tags, Icons next to their names, etc, especially the Increased Loot because they don't use the AH and other means to make the game leveled and hard as they seek to see how far they can go.

But if you made this setting to cater to them, (IE: Locked PD Setting) it would scare the rest of us who would buy it for the baubles (Cosmetic Gear and Fluff), however, if you didn't, it would have little value to them otherwise. a very nasty little catch 22 there. because most vets have no need for increased loot-gen-junk.

However, if you did that, I could soo see that as the gauntlet of E-Peen flexing between the philosophies like "Oh yah, where are your Valor Tags?" as the ultimate throw down.

While like all the other countless suggestions that have risen up about this, the one part I really like is the cosmetic gear options and perhaps an Icon next to name like TRwings, that would be available for those that earned enough Valor Points.(Which I think were suggested in the past as well, but still they are a grand idea)

It's a tricky option to make. I think it would be better if it also had a PD effect attached to it, to make it more intimidating then simply the lack of shrines.

It's a decent idea however, it has been brought up many times in the past, and like most idea that tend to resurface like this one, it keeps coming back because overall it's a appealing concept of a "Higher Tier" setting then the stereotypical grind settings players already know and stomp.

[Uska]

There are loads of ways we can make the game harder:

- Don't play a variation of one of the 30 most common builds.

- Use CON as a dumpstat.

- Don't take the Toughness feat.

- Only use vendor bought gear.

- Play on a dial up connection.

- Use a computer that was built ten or more years ago.

- Play blindfolded.

- Take a shot every time misadventure gets a kill or finds a secret door or something.

I'm sure there are thousands more ways to make the game more challenging, these are just off the top of my head.

Best of all none of these require any programming by Turbine, can be done now, and won't introduce new bugs/problems for everyone else.

Your not funny and no need to troll


To op some interesting ideas not sure they would be worth the dev time or not but I certainly wouldn't be against it and as many have noticed I don't like most ideas I see here but I do like some of this

[Uska]

"* Valorous does not give favor. This ensures that the quests are still run on Elite or below, and not just turn Valrous into the new "must run" setting. Remember, this is supposed to be an optional setting for everyone."

Sorry, multi TRs don't care about favor, favor is just something that clutters our mailboxes (except Argo favor, maybe). This WOULD drop the amount of elite and lower PuGs. Stand in front of a mid-level quest entrance, 75 percent or more players entering have wings. You are basically suggesting epic heroic difficulty. Should be easily doable by vets, new players need not apply. This game's becoming less and less new player friendly, DDO needs new players.

I saw nothing "trollish" about the first reply to your post.

Disagree greatly with two of your points

1. TR's do care about favor a few more points lets me buy another xp pot here and there since I won't spend cash for them

2. First reply was very much trolling

[varusso]

<snip>

Absolutely, we need new content -- and constantly. Without it (bugs and all) the game stagnates. Even with the TR system in place, a game can only survive for so long without fresh updates.

And while a new tier isnt technically new content, at the same time it is. Its the same content, but with more to it, like Epics. But more to the point, going forward it allows the devs to add any new content without worrying quite so much about juggling the balance between ubers and newbs. There is a dif setting for everyone, so I think it makes it easier to add actual new content -- with a dif setting targeted at pretty much everyone.

PD has been brought up a few times, including the old thread (which apparently the mods deleted instead of locking LOL). I can see this appealing to them as well, as it includes some of the elements they impose on themselves. I am trying to include enough attraction for enough playstyles that it is worth doing (costwise for Turbine) but without the temptation to "dumb it down" to make it 100% universally accessible (read: easy button/cakewalk) -- that would defeat the point.

[goodoldxelos]

There are loads of ways we can make the game harder:

- Don't play a variation of one of the 30 most common builds.

- Use CON as a dumpstat.

- Don't take the Toughness feat.

- Only use vendor bought gear.

- Play on a dial up connection.

- Use a computer that was built ten or more years ago.

- Play blindfolded.

- Take a shot every time misadventure gets a kill or finds a secret door or something.

I'm sure there are thousands more ways to make the game more challenging, these are just off the top of my head.

Best of all none of these require any programming by Turbine, can be done now, and won't introduce new bugs/problems for everyone else.

Stupid stupid stupid!!!!