New Difficulty Setting: Valorous ((2.0))

[varusso]

OK, in my first draft of this proposal, the actual intent (creating a new and challenging difficulty setting) was getting lost in all the noise about the additionally proposed crafting system. Since this is supposed to be about the challenge setting and not the crafting, I am rewriting this in hopes of drawing the focus back to its proper place. TL: DR version: just read down to the green line if you want the meat of the system. Everything below that is optional rewards systems.

So I've been thinking. I see alot of debate on a daily basis about how easy the game is vs. how hard it is. Obviously, the majority of players who complain it is too easy are the ones with all the shinies and years of experience with all of the content. I can see both sides of this. Personally, I think the challenge is just fine in most areas, with a few notable exceptions, depending on the class you play and your resources, etc. I would like to see more challenge brought into the game, but not in a way that is forced on everyone. Trying to balance it for both sides of the coin is just not going to work. So I have come up with a rough outline for a compromise: a new difficulty setting that provides challenge for all the "uber" players but without shoving it down everyone else's throats or making it "mandatory" for those who really have no interest.

So, I give you the Valor System. (2.0)

Keep in mind this is still a rough draft. It will require some polish, including exact figures and tweaks to the actual difficulty in order to balance risk vs. reward. As with my Widget System, look past names and numbers and focus on the concept. Names and numbers are easy to change. The Valorous difficulty setting would be a step above Elite.

THE CHALLENGE:

* First off, this will be a P2P addition (free to VIPs). See the REWARDS section for more info on this.
* For purposes of quest lvl vs. player lvl, it would have the same level as Elite (that is, +2 base).
* Valorous does not count toward BB or streaks, nor is it affected by them, but it would count toward repetition counters.
* All XP-affecting items work on Valorous setting as they would on other settings (which means VOM and the cloak work, but XP tomes would not work in epic)..
* Valorous does not give favor. This ensures that the quests are still run on Elite or below, and not just turn Valrous into the new "must run" setting. Remember, this is supposed to be an optional setting for everyone.
* Mobs would have +50% HP and deal +25~50% damage over Elite.
* All DCs would be +5~10 over Elite (likely +5 in Heroic and +10 in Epic).
* No Rest Shrines, and any Rez Shrines would be limited to one use per toon.
* No hirelings, but class pets and summons work as normal. This removes the ability to bypass the lack of shrines by using cleric hirelings for infinite SP and rezes.
* Optional: Rez cakes and ethereal shrines, etc. might be allowed, but no G.S. Hirelings, etc.
* Korthos would NOT have a Valorous setting. Its supposed to be a newbie/teaching area, so lets leave it alone.
* No scaling (up or down) based on party size. Set the default to be vs. a 4-man party and leave it there. This means players could further supplement their challenge by short-manning it, or make it a bit easier by maxing out the party (thus subtly encouraging grouping).
* As with the old epics, there are no re-entries allowed. If you leave for any reason, you cannot re-enter.
* For now, raids (including pre-raids just to avoid confusion or other issues) would NOT have a Valorous setting; only 6-man "normal" quests would be affected. After implementation and testing, Raids could be considered for inclusion as well. Challenges would also be permanently exempt (they follow a completely different format and have their own difficulty and reward "slider" built in).
* Outside buffs are dispelled; this includes ship buffs and House buffs. Buffs from XP pots, etc. are left intact. I am personally not a fan of this idea, but I know it is a popular request for this type of setting, so I am including it for consideration.
* New: Disable invisibility, Shadowwalk, and other such spells/abilities (but not sneak) so as to avoid the obvious invis-zerg to completions. This could be as simple as giving all mobs in Valorous True Seeing.

THE REWARDS:

Like everything else, the rewards must be enticing enough to encourage players to try it. And while this setting IS designed for the folks who want more challenge in their content, simply saying "challenge is its own reward" just isnt enough. First, the percentage of players who just want more challenge isnt enough to justify adding it in. In order for Turbine to meet its cost/benefit ratio, enough players must be likely to use/buy the product to make it worth their engineering time. So what kinds of things appeal to most players? A few examples (add more if you can think of any):
* Loot: This is the obvious one. Everyone loves shinies. Even if they dont actually DO anything, players like them.
* XP: Especially among vets and TRs, this is a huge draw. Its why XP-bonus Days are so popular.
* Challenge: Some folks just want to have more challenge. For players who are geared to the teeth, this is much harder to find.
* Tchotchkes: This encompasses pretty much all of the vanity/cosmetic knickknacks, from armor kits to DDO-store pets. They may serve absolutely no purpose other than a plat/TP sink, but players go gaga over this stuff.

So with these things in mind, we move on to how to actually incentivise the system to appeal to the most people, ensuring they will crack open their wallets for it (remember we are probably going to have to pay for the dev time). I will outline a few options for rewards systems that might be included. Remember: the focus of this thread is adding a new difficulty setting to the game. All of the rewards should be considered "addendums" to that. While it is perfectly fine to discuss them, lets keep in mind that they should not be the paramount issue here. The following rewards are "universal". That is, they will be a "set" part of the Valorous rewards package, with additional "optional" rewards to follow:

UNIVERSAL REWARDS:

* Valor Points: When completing any quest on Valorous setting while at/below level (that is, +2 or less over the base quest level), the character earns Valor Points (VP). VP is a "phantom" number, tracked like favor, per character. Unlike Favor, VP is retained over TR/LR/GR or any other form of character morphing that may be added in the future. VP can also only be earned ONCE per quest per toon per life. It does not matter if you run Valorous first or last; so long as you run it without being overlevel (overlevel = no VP for that quest), you get your VP. There are no streaks or VP bonuses. You get a set amount each time you run it (at level) for the first time on that toon's life. If you want more VP, you have to run another quest or run the same one again in the next life.
* XP: Valorous would give higher base XP than Elite (let's say +20% for now) and would give a first-time bonus of 100%. All normal XP-boosting items and effects would work as per other settings EXCEPT there would be no BB/Streak bonuses. Running Valorous also would not affect any BB/Streak bonuses. Remember we want this to be optional, and not perceived as the new "mandatory" Elite setting for streaks, favor, etc.
* Loot: Valorous would have +1 loot bonus over Elite. This would mean some new vendor goodies would likely drop in slightly lower level quests. If a bonus were also given to named loot drops, it would need to be relatively small (again to ensure it does not become "mandatory" to run on this setting while farming).
* TURN-INS: No matter what Optional Rewards system is chosen, there will eventually come a time when a toon has all it can reasonably want from the system (or the odd duck where nothing appeals to them at all). So there must be VP-sink in place to cater to these folks. As such, VP can be spent at any of the Valorforge Vendors to buy miscellaneous things such as pots (including XP/Renown elixirs), scrolls, wands, etc. This would include wands/scrolls that cant be found at normal vendors, such Dimension Door, Firewall, and high-level scrolls, as well as negative energy wands, etc. A higher version of cure pots might even be available here. Since VP is a self-limiting resource, purchasing these items in mass quantities should not be a real issue, as they would all be BTC.
* VARIETY: In addition, this has the side-benefit of making some of the less-run quests more attractive (I'm looking at you 3BC). Since you can only get VP once per toon per quest per life, it encourages players to seek out as many quests as possible, similar to the incentive of BB and streaks.

================================================== =====================

OPTIONAL REWARDS I: New Crafting Sytems:

Note: I have made some revisions to the original proposal for this reward system.

On the Valorous setting only, treasure bags and chests would drop scraps of material: Iron, wood, silver, mithral, cloth, etc. -- all of the materials that our gear can currently be made of. Gather 20 pieces of the same type to make an Ingot (block for wood, bolt for cloth, etc.). Gather X number of ingots to craft a base item. As an example, it might take 20 ingots to make a suit of armor, 10 to make a 1H-wpn, 15 to make a 2H-wpn, and 10-20 to make a shield, depending on its size. Scraps and Ingots would be completely unbound, meaning they could be sold/traded.

Once you have an adequate number of ingots, you visit a Valorforge, located in one of the currently unused buildings in House K. There you will pay one of the dwarven smiths to forge your item for you (barter interface), spending VP and ingots to do so. A Valorforged item (the item name would include the Valorforged title) would be BTC and have 4 slots: Bonus, Prefix, Suffix, Affix. Cannith-crafted shards may be placed in any of the appropriate slots, with Affix accepting either an additional Prefix or Suffix (similar to Thaumatergic Staves). The same ML restrictions would apply -- with one exception: the +1 ML for shards beyond the first would be dropped. Also, they would be hard-capped at 20, regardless of what effects are applied. Like DT Armor, shards could be replaced by taking them to the Valorforge and spending a new shard (and some VP), destroying the replaced shard, but leaving all other shards intact. To avoid conflicts with the Affix vs Prefix/Suffix, the Forge interface would include the actual slots, so the forge "knows" which shard to replace. This would likely require separate interfaces for forging the base item and adding shards to it later.

In addition, starting at ML 11, the toon can spend additional VP to reduce the ML of the item by 1. This can be done up to 4 times, each time getting a new additional "title" on the item so it can be readily identified as to what stage it is in (IE: Fine, Good, Excellent, Exquisite, no additional title for a non-upgraded item). The ML of an item cannot be reduced below 10. This is a checks and balance thing to keep it reasonably in-line with similar level loot. Changing the shard in a slot does not remove an item's titles.

One objection I see right away of course is power gap between the ubers and the rest. Frankly, this really does not concern me, since that gap is already there and really does NOT make a real difference. The ubers want the extra challenge of a harder game, and this gives it to them -- they are already playing a different game than the rest of the players anyway. Ideally, this stops the outcry for devs to unilaterally bump up the game difficulty, while still giving them what they ACTUALLY want -- more challenge and better rewards. In addition, while the new gear with the extra Affix is more powerful than normal gear, it also comes with a higher ML due to that extra Affix -- and upgrading it would require alot more effort, so it works out. You wont be walking into a Valorous quest and getting a new shiny with every completion.

Another objection that jumps out is inventory space to store the new materials. No real way around that except to eat the loss of space in your ings bags.

COST:

Obviously, this is not a small thing in terms of engineering and artwork, so it justifies a fairly hefty price tag. Since this would be a game-wide update, affecting all non-raid quests (except Korthos) and would include Epic quests, it should be at least 1500-2000 TP for the "base" package -- this would include ONLY armor, wpns, and shields. Later, after the devs have had a chance to gauge the impact on power-level and player reception, etc, other slots might be added at 150 or so TP (200 for rings), and various bundles. Since it costs TP to access these features, it helps keep them balanced vs. other forms of crafting.

OPTIONAL REWARDS II: Modified Cannith Crafting:

Instead of adding an entirely new crafting system, we could modify Cannith Crafting slightly. There would still be a Valorforge in House K, but there would be no extra T-bag/chest drops of scraps. Instead, VP would be a "currency" (still tracked in the same manner, with the same restrictions) that you would use to purchase base items from one of the Valorforge dwarves. The barter system could be used here (in a slightly modified version, as there would be no physical crafting items to put in the box) to allow players to purchase base items of their chose material (Silver wpns, mithral amror, etc). The resulting Valorforged item would be pre-keyed for Cannoth Crafting, and would have a maximum Potential included. Other than that, it would be treated exactly the same as any other Cannith-keyed craftable item -- with the exception that it would include the title "Valorforged" as part of its name. The items would of course be BTC.

COST:

This is a significant step down from Option I in terms of power. It avoids the power-gap complaint, and it also negates the need for more ings storage, but it also has alot less WOOHOO! to it in terms of concrete rewards. At MOST, I could see this being a 1000-1500 TP bundle, and unlike Option I, there are no "residual" purchases for upgrades.

OPTIONAL REWARDS III: Tchotchkes

Like Option II, a modified barter box interface would be used. Instead of any other concrete rewards, players could purchase things such as Valor-system-specific vanity pets and armor/wpn kits. These things are surprisingly popular to alot of players (if you dotn believe me just stroll through the marketplace sometime).

COST:

They dont appeal a great deal to me personally, so I wont try to set a price tag for this.

OPTIONAL REWARDS IV: None

This option relies heavily on players wanting the upgrade just for the sake of the "universal" rewards I listed above (Challenge, XP, Loot, Turn-ins). Obviously, this avoids the majority of the over-powered concerns, but it also has the lowest amount of universal appeal.

COST:

I wont even try pricing this version, but it would be very low compared to the rest, and might not yield enough revenue to make it worth pursuing (for Turbine). This is the only version that I might see being remotely considered for F2P -- though I doubt it would see the light of day without some method for Turbine to directly recoup their time investment.


OK hopefully this revision will take the focus back off the crafting system and put it back on the meat of the real proposal -- the new dif setting. Note that I have included some tweaks and suggestions from other posters. Rather than trying to credit every little tidbit, anyone who is interested can read the original thread HERE.

As always, constructive feedback is welcome.

[Dysmetria]

As always, constructive feedback is welcome.

There are loads of ways we can make the game harder:

- Don't play a variation of one of the 30 most common builds.

- Use CON as a dumpstat.

- Don't take the Toughness feat.

- Only use vendor bought gear.

- Play on a dial up connection.

- Use a computer that was built ten or more years ago.

- Play blindfolded.

- Take a shot every time misadventure gets a kill or finds a secret door or something.

I'm sure there are thousands more ways to make the game more challenging, these are just off the top of my head.

Best of all none of these require any programming by Turbine, can be done now, and won't introduce new bugs/problems for everyone else.

[varusso]

There are loads of ways we can make the game harder:

- Don't play a variation of one of the 30 most common builds.

- Use CON as a dumpstat.

- Don't take the Toughness feat.

- Only use vendor bought gear.

- Play on a dial up connection.

- Use a computer that was built ten or more years ago.

- Play blindfolded.

- Take a shot every time misadventure gets a kill or finds a secret door or something.

I'm sure there are thousands more ways to make the game more challenging, these are just off the top of my head.

Best of all none of these require any programming by Turbine, can be done now, and won't introduce new bugs/problems for everyone else.

And none of these are realistic suggestions either, nor is it in any way constructive to post this nonsense. Worst of all, if Turbine actually said these were "good ideas" for their players to increase their own challenge levels, they would (justifiably) be told to stuff it and lose subs. If you just want to troll, kindly find a different thread.

[madmaxhunter]

"* Valorous does not give favor. This ensures that the quests are still run on Elite or below, and not just turn Valrous into the new "must run" setting. Remember, this is supposed to be an optional setting for everyone."

Sorry, multi TRs don't care about favor, favor is just something that clutters our mailboxes (except Argo favor, maybe). This WOULD drop the amount of elite and lower PuGs. Stand in front of a mid-level quest entrance, 75 percent or more players entering have wings. You are basically suggesting epic heroic difficulty. Should be easily doable by vets, new players need not apply. This game's becoming less and less new player friendly, DDO needs new players.

I saw nothing "trollish" about the first reply to your post.

[varusso]

"* Valorous does not give favor. This ensures that the quests are still run on Elite or below, and not just turn Valrous into the new "must run" setting. Remember, this is supposed to be an optional setting for everyone."

Sorry, multi TRs don't care about favor, favor is just something that clutters our mailboxes (except Argo favor, maybe). This WOULD drop the amount of elite and lower PuGs. Stand in front of a mid-level quest entrance, 75 percent or more players entering have wings. You are basically suggesting epic heroic difficulty. Should be easily doable by vets, new players need not apply. This game's becoming less and less new player friendly, DDO needs new players.

I am a multi-TR and I run with many multi-TR. I know of none that "dont care" about favor -- except when they are doing a power/speed run for completionist. Favor of all sorts is still sought after. Any TR knows why. But since we tend to run for Elite streak anyway, it doesnt take alot of special effort to make favor farming runs like it does on most 1st-life toons. The favor comes "naturally" as part of our normal questing habits.

Since Valorous does not give BB (and BB is a significant factor in running Elite) yes, there would absolutely still be plenty of Elite and below runs; a BB run on elite would actually still give more XP than a first-time valorous run. And I dont see TRs/vets suddenly behaving any differently about puggers in their farming runs than they do now -- which is to say some are going to be jerks, but the majority will run with whatever shows up just as they do now -- except in regards to specifically Valorous runs.

What I see most likely to happen is that players wuld run their BB streak + farming runs, then hit Valorous once before outleveling the quest. Those who want a REAL challenge might start out with valorous first, well below level. Regardless, the system is designed to allow players the flexibility of doing it however they like, without feeling "forced" to run Valorous before they are ready in order to preserve their streaks.

I saw nothing "trollish" about the first reply to your post.

The troll was obvious to anyone who reads the post. If it was intended as some sort of joke, it was poorly delivered. But I am not going to engage in a side debate and derail or pollute the thread further.

[madmaxhunter]

You write about 20 percent bonus to base exp + an additional 20 percent bonus for first time completion. That is possibly better than the 50 percent BB bonus (taking into account that the 20 percent base bonus is "base" which means more than any other bonus. The loot bonus would also steer players to running it over elite.

If TRs cap quicker by running valorous difficulty, and not have to deal with the BB rules, I'd wager most would go that route.

*snip* The troll was obvious to anyone who reads the post. If it was intended as some sort of joke, it was poorly delivered. But I am not going to engage in a side debate and derail or pollute the thread further.

His point was that with everything bad going on in this game, spending the resources to add a difficulty level for the bored twinkers/min-maxers/etc. is not a direction it should be going. Which is a valid response to your OP, like it or not.

[varusso]

You write about 20 percent bonus to base exp + an additional 20 percent bonus for first time completion. That is possibly better than the 50 percent BB bonus (taking into account that the 20 percent base bonus is "base" which means more than any other bonus. The loot bonus would also steer players to running it over elite.

If TRs cap quicker by running valorous difficulty, and not have to deal with the BB rules, I'd wager most would go that route.




His point was that with everything bad going on in this game, spending the resources to add a difficulty level for the bored twinkers/min-maxers/etc. is not a direction it should be going. Which is a valid response to your OP, like it or not.

BB + Streak on elite will far surpass the Valorous XP. But as I said, numbers are easy to tweak, so we shouldnt get hung up on that. It can be adjusted up or down however it is needed to provide incentive without displacing other difficulties.

The cry for more challenge has been here for a VERY long time. As the game ages, the actual problem behind it (powercreep) only gets worse. The longer it goes unaddressed, the worse it will get, and the harder it will be to deal with. "Fear" of bugs/glitches cannot be used to prevent forward progress. Different teams work on new content vs bugs anyway. They can be worked on concurrently. Whats more, folks who want more challenge have just as much right to have their desires addressed as folks clamboring for Turbine to get the new enhancement systems in. I, for one, would rather see Turbine add a new optional difficulty than see them give in to the other camp's demands that the entire game receive a universal bump in difficulty.

[Dysmetria]

And none of these are realistic suggestions either, nor is it in any way constructive to post this nonsense. Worst of all, if Turbine actually said these were "good ideas" for their players to increase their own challenge levels, they would (justifiably) be told to stuff it and lose subs. If you just want to troll, kindly find a different thread.

I thought my post was quite constructive, and contained multiple realistic suggestions of just a few of many ways a player can increase the challenge of playing immediately, as opposed to futily waiting for the devs to approve this or one of the many similar suggestions like this they have ignored over the years. Even if they decided this post was better than all the other similar suggestions and started working on it today, it wouldn't be included in an update til at least a year from now.

Turbine doesn't need to say my ideas were good or not, each individual player can decide that for themselves, and use one or come up with better ways to impose their own challenges on their own gameplay if they want to. There are people doing so already with permadeath guilds and such, and no one is telling Turbine to "stuff it" or cancelling their subs over it. All I am saying is that if people want more challenge in the game, there are literally hundreds of ways they can add that challenge to the game themselves, instead of waiting for Turbine to do it for them.

[countfitz]

1st: if you think it's a troll, "don't feed the trolls" (ignore it).

2nd: the ONLY incentive should be cosmetic bragging rights.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, good will come from making power gamers more powerful and seperating them from the casuals more than they already are. But cosmetic incentives, that say you completed a chain on "valorous" simply 'cause you could, now that's an idea.

But more xp and loot, making the few strong players who could do it stronger? No thanks.

[Mastikator]

To sum it up to see if I understand the suggestion correctly you want:
A new difficulty setting, called Valorous, that is harder than elite, counts as elite for favor and XP purposes (and bravery?????) but the monsters are twice as tough and the dungeon scaling is disabled, no re-entry, no rest shrines and only 1 rez, no hirelings or other things that raids forbid, no ship buffs or house buffs.
And the only purpose of doing this is prestige in the form of bragging rights and vanity items, no mechanical benefits over doing elite.

[Vezuial]

* No Rest Shrines, and any Rez Shrines would be limited to one use per toon.
* No hirelings, but class pets and summons work as normal. This removes the ability to bypass the lack of shrines by using cleric hirelings for infinite SP and rezes.

Sorry, but no. This would simply render a lot of builds unable to run those quests at all. Quest layouts would have to be redesigned substantially, or you would be excluding a major portion of players. Then again, considering the idea to increase the DCs by ten, that may be what you had in mind in the first place.

[Persiflage]

I'm sorry to say this, because you obviously put a lot of work into - and took a lot of time over - the suggestion, but I think it's horrible. I would wager my next month's pay that only a tiny fraction of the player base considers Epic Elite to be "too easy", and the notion of investing the amount of developer time required to implement your ideas on creating an even more difficult setting appalls me.

Not only that, but the way in which you want it to be more difficult is exactly what's wrong with EE as it currently stands. You want mobs to have 50% MORE hit points? What, is it somehow more fun to have to stand there swinging for 50% longer? Or is it your intent to make insta-killing even more necessary? And how much take-up of this new difficulty level do you really think you're going to get with no shrines or ship-buffs? You can't get a PuG healer for love nor money in EE half the time already because of player hp inflation, massive incoming damage and lack of spellpower/scaling cures for healing magic.

Seriously, if more challenge is required in Elite, it needs to come through more innovative game design, fluid challenges within quests and a greater variety of obstacles which require players to react quickly, not the current lame and boring approach of double-all-the-numbers.

What the game needs is a difficulty somewhere in-between current Epic Hard and Epic Elite. There's no "proving ground" for toons right now, particularly healers, as Normal and Hard hardly need them and Elite is utterly horrible for them. Those players who cut their teeth on the old Epics may find EE to be an acceptable step up, but how on earth are newer players supposed to learn the skills necessary to cut it in EE these days? Your suggestion would just take the (tiny fraction) of players who can romp through EE content and push them up to yet another level of crazy, separating them even further from the less-skilled (or less-ground-out as the case may be) and depriving the aspiring of already-scarce opportunities to learn.

[Fomori]

While I see you put much thought into your idea and laid it out eloquently, I dont think that your solution addresses any major problem.

The game is easy for some people because they chose the route that would make their characters powerful enough to make the content easy. Making the game easy IS the reward. If someone takes that path and then complains the game is too easy, they are just selfish whiners, plain and simple.

Some people play just to collect the best of the best gear and that is fine, we have EE for that. If they beat that effortlessly then, well, sorry, but maybe DDO is not for them anymore. I would much rather have an entitled vet leave than pander to their ego of changing the game simply to make them feel 'needed' to play.

While it sucks to lose guildies and friends its better to have a game that is fun to all playstyles rather than just the top end. Powergamers get pandered to in all games; which leads to instituting grind mechanics and increasing powercreep. If game companies just let them cry and leave to the next big thing, then maybe the game that is left behind will be closer to what THEY want it to be and those that stay can accept it... or move on as well.

[varusso]

To sum it up to see if I understand the suggestion correctly you want:
A new difficulty setting, called Valorous, that is harder than elite, counts as elite for favor and XP purposes (and bravery?????) but the monsters are twice as tough and the dungeon scaling is disabled, no re-entry, no rest shrines and only 1 rez, no hirelings or other things that raids forbid, no ship buffs or house buffs.
And the only purpose of doing this is prestige in the form of bragging rights and vanity items, no mechanical benefits over doing elite.

No, it specifically says it DOES NOT count for BB or favor, so as not to interfere with elite runs. There are a number of rewards suggested, with vanity items being a passing mention, included because they are a motivator for alot of people. I would hardly call the Valorforged gear "vanity items". Nor would I say that having non-vendor items as rewards is insignificant. But rewards are easy to adjust (which is one of the reasons I gave multiple options).

Sorry, but no. This would simply render a lot of builds unable to run those quests at all. Quest layouts would have to be redesigned substantially, or you would be excluding a major portion of players. Then again, considering the idea to increase the DCs by ten, that may be what you had in mind in the first place.

This would also make many builds more viable in comparison. Specifically, it makes it harder for blue bars to simply walk through the quest without spending resources. In current dif settings, a mage can just mana-dump their way through the quest solo. With multiple shrines and dungeon scaling working in their favor, it makes it a breeze. With NO shrines to recharge and full-on scaling in effect (not to mention higher DCs) it means the mage has to be more selective of how they use their spells, and likely wont be able to solo it without using resources. The other option is for them to hop in a group and work with others to get it done.

The only builds that should be made unviable are ones that break down under pressure anyway. Thats not a symptom of a "too hard" quest; thats a symptom of a bad build. If they can function in Elite, then they are fine playing DDO. But the game should not revolve around ensuring that every god-awful monstrosity that gets spit out of character creation is able to cakewalk through the hardest content in the game. If you build a frankenstein, you accept that it doesnt work in every situation (and yes I have some of those toons myself ) Whats more, the whole point to the new setting is to challenge the folks that actually DO spend the time building and gearing uber toons. It doesnt need to be balanced for gimpy toons. They have 4 other dif settings to play around in, where their builds likely perform well enough to make them happy.

[Fomori]

This would also make many builds more viable in comparison. Specifically, it makes it harder for blue bars to simply walk through the quest without spending resources. In current dif settings, a mage can just mana-dump their way through the quest solo. With multiple shrines and dungeon scaling working in their favor, it makes it a breeze. With NO shrines to recharge and full-on scaling in effect (not to mention higher DCs) it means the mage has to be more selective of how they use their spells, and likely wont be able to solo it without using resources. The other option is for them to hop in a group and work with others to get it done.

Or it will go back to the point where the game used to be, which sucked! A time when hitting DC's were not auto success and their dps spells were not so good. Then the casters were just the melee buffers because a melee weapon doesnt run out of SP. The cleric and fvs were just heal bots to keep the hp of the melees up.

[varusso]

While I see you put much thought into your idea and laid it out eloquently, I dont think that your solution addresses any major problem.

The game is easy for some people because they chose the route that would make their characters powerful enough to make the content easy. Making the game easy IS the reward. If someone takes that path and then complains the game is too easy, they are just selfish whiners, plain and simple.

Some people play just to collect the best of the best gear and that is fine, we have EE for that. If they beat that effortlessly then, well, sorry, but maybe DDO is not for them anymore. I would much rather have an entitled vet leave than pander to their ego of changing the game simply to make them feel 'needed' to play.

While it sucks to lose guildies and friends its better to have a game that is fun to all playstyles rather than just the top end. Powergamers get pandered to in all games; which leads to instituting grind mechanics and increasing powercreep. If game companies just let them cry and leave to the next big thing, then maybe the game that is left behind will be closer to what THEY want it to be and those that stay can accept it... or move on as well.

Obviously the problem is that folks have collected too much power for the normal game to be challenging. But thats not a flaw in the players (or even the game); it is a natural progression of every MMO, and its something that gets worse as the game ages. The inevitable cycle is that players gain power and knowledge, trivializing content. So the dev team ramps up the challenge and introduces better gear to keep them interested, challenged, and playing. Players learn and overcome the new challenge, acquire all the gear, and the cycle starts again. This is called powercreep, and players are NOT whiners because they want a continual source of new and better entertainment. If the devs dont provide it, they eventually get bored and leave.

The flip side of this of course is the new players who come in, with that huge gap in power. If the game is constantly being ramped up to suit the needs of the older players, the newer players dont stand a chance in that same content. If the devs keep the game toned down to ensure new players will still come to the game, the older players get hosed. So the dev team has to constantly play a balancing game between the two extremes. DDO is fairly unique in that we have a tiered difficulty system which allows players to define their own challenge level to a large extent. The problem is that even elite (even EE) is being trivialized by gear and builds for alot of players. Players are not "at fault" for trying to build the best toons they can and succeeding.

So the dev team has two essential choices: (1) Ignore these players and wait for them to quit (which they will eventually) or (2) Provide enough challenge (and rewards) to keep them playing. If they give in to the cry for ramping up the game, then they create problems for everyone else. If, instead, they simply create a new tier (which fits right in with the style of the game) they can satisfy both sides at the same time.

[Fomori]

So the dev team has two essential choices: (1) Ignore these players and wait for them to quit (which they will eventually) or (2) Provide enough challenge (and rewards) to keep them playing. If they give in to the cry for ramping up the game, then they create problems for everyone else. If, instead, they simply create a new tier (which fits right in with the style of the game) they can satisfy both sides at the same time.

I agree in that benefiting everyone would be the preferred method. Keep the new, casual, and powergamer players interested. If there was some system that did so, I would be on board.

[Mastikator]

No, it specifically says it DOES NOT count for BB or favor, so as not to interfere with elite runs. There are a number of rewards suggested, with vanity items being a passing mention, included because they are a motivator for alot of people. I would hardly call the Valorforged gear "vanity items". Nor would I say that having non-vendor items as rewards is insignificant. But rewards are easy to adjust (which is one of the reasons I gave multiple options).

Sorry, didn't read the entire post.

A few questions.
* Will running it for the first time on Valorous be possible, or is elite needed to unlock it?
* Do TR3+ auto-unlock, do VIPs auto-unlock, do DDOStore keys unlock?
If no, can you join someone who has unlocked it, thus doing it for the quest for the first time?
If yes, will you miss the chance to get bravery bonus, or could you do it on Valorous and then elite and still get BB?
* When you complete Valorous difficulty, will the quest log say you've completed it on Valorous or Elite?
* If you can only gain Valor Points once per quest per toon, why do you keep them over lives? This means the only way to get more Valor Points (once you've gotten all in) is to TR.

[varusso]

Sorry, didn't read the entire post.

A few questions.
* Will running it for the first time on Valorous be possible, or is elite needed to unlock it?
* Do TR3+ auto-unlock, do VIPs auto-unlock, do DDOStore keys unlock?
If no, can you join someone who has unlocked it, thus doing it for the quest for the first time?

Valorous is proposed as a P2P package, so once you buy it, you can open on it. If you dont own it, you cant run it, even if someone else has it -- just like other P2P content. If the devs decide to offer it as a F2P option, then this would be something they would need to address. It could even be potentially offered as a favor-unlock for the highest generic favor tier.

If yes, will you miss the chance to get bravery bonus, or could you do it on Valorous and then elite and still get BB?

Valorous is completely separate from BB and streaks. You can do Valorous in any order in regards to the other dif settings and it will not affect your streaks in any way. You can do it first, last, or somewhere in the middle (or even not at all) with no change to BB whatsoever.

* When you complete Valorous difficulty, will the quest log say you've completed it on Valorous or Elite?

I would expect it to do so -- Turbine has indicated they plan to (eventually) allow us to see every quest, what dif we have completed and how many times on each dif. I would expect Valorous to receive the same treatment.

* If you can only gain Valor Points once per quest per toon, why do you keep them over lives? This means the only way to get more Valor Points (once you've gotten all in) is to TR.

Yes, thats exactly the intent. You CAN re-run Valorous setting as many times as you like, but you only get the VP once per life per toon (if you are not overlevel for the quest of course). This is intended to (1) Prevent farming all the VP you will need in one life to get all the gear. Like other loot systems already in the game, it should take more than one life's worth of effort to get it all. And (2) it encourages players to seek out more than just the same quests every life. EVERY non-raid and non-challenge quest (except Korthos) would offer VP, so less popular quests (like 3BC) might see more attention this way. And since you are unlikely to get all your VP in one life, it needs to roll over so you can save up. Frankly, I think resetting things over TRs (other than favor) SUCKS anyway.

Note: If the optional rewards #1 is used, the Scraps would also drop with every Valorous run, so there is also potential to farm for that. Also, it would still have a slightly higher base XP than elite, as well as a bonus to loot, so for those who like shinies and can handle the challenge, its an option as well.

[varusso]

Or it will go back to the point where the game used to be, which sucked! A time when hitting DC's were not auto success and their dps spells were not so good. Then the casters were just the melee buffers because a melee weapon doesnt run out of SP. The cleric and fvs were just heal bots to keep the hp of the melees up.

I think the folks for whom the Valorous setting is designed will be able to make the DC checks. If not, then they likely arent quite as uber as they thought they were Remember, its designed to challenge a group of well-geared, well-built toons, not to be a cakewalk for whatever hodge-podge mish-mash of a toon we toss together on the fly. A group of 6 moderately geared and played toons would likely have a much harder time completing this than a group of 4 toons in the target audience. Meanwhile, with this new setting, devs can freely ignore the cries to universally bump up the game difficulty -- which would absolutely have a negative impact on all the non-ubers who enjoy the content the way it is now. And moving forward, they can design content with the "normal" players in mind, knowing they can simply tweak the Valorous setting of the new content for uber players, leaving the rest of the content at reasonable levels for everyone else.

I agree in that benefiting everyone would be the preferred method. Keep the new, casual, and powergamer players interested. If there was some system that did so, I would be on board.

~sniffle~ And here I thought thats what I was trying to accomplish....