Monk/Rogue, stun + SA = truth?

[Mastikator]

I may be wrong about this, but stunned creatures can be sneak attacked even when it has agro on you.
So, because I don't like sneaking around or relying on others to maintain agro I'm thinking, why not stun every monster?
So here's what I'm thinking Monk 7/Rogue 13
Stun DC:
10 base,
10 level
9 wis mod
10 wraps
5 combat mastery from spare hand
3 improv sunder penalty
3 pl fighter
= 50 stun DC total at level 20, enough to stun anything that can be stunned

Sneak attack:
7d6 level 13 rogue
2d6 assassin 2
1d6 ninja
9 sneak attack training enhancement
3 ring of the stalker
= 10d6+12 = 22-72 ~47

Question, is this viable for leveling solo and in groups? I'm only interested in level 1-20, mostly for the rogue PL. Or should I go pure rogue, or some other rogue builds?

[Clayness]

7/13 seems to be a bit peculiar split, but the concept itself is true. The mix of monk and rogue is very potent, being able to stun mobs and subsequently do sneak attack damage to them is very sweet. Personally I did 9 monk/11 rogue on my rogue life on my unarmed character, since 9 monk gives you access to touch of death and shadowfade. Others prefer to maximize the sneak attack damage of the build and go 2 monk/18 rogue. Both builds can work just fine.

[Aerach]

Yes. It works surprisingly well with just Ninja Spy II and Rogue dil on a gimp split (stuffed up a LR from monkcher on alt), so it must surely work beautifully with a proper split and DCs.

[Runaway]

I'm playing a monk/rogue with 0 move silently and hide and I've found it very viable from level 2 to 13 so far, both solo and in group. You will also want to put Unbalancing Strike on your hotbar, a level 6 monk attack that makes the mob vulnerable to sneak attack.

When solo I also systematically use a hireling as an extra distraction/body shield to get additional SA attacks off on mobs, because mobs die too fast and even if they lasted longer, my ki generation (I play mostly in wind stance ofc) would not be able to keep with stunning and unbalancing alone.

I would personally go for rogue13/monk7. Haste boost 4, rogue assassin 2, extra sneak attack damage. You lose access to touch of death, but that attack requires a large AP investment to get and then is 50ki to use, putting even more strain on your ki regeneration. But this is probably a personal choice.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I did something like this once, except I only had one monk level. One monk level is plenty.

10d6 sneek damage from 19 rogue
3d6 from assassin III
12 sneak attack training
8 +5 backstab item
6 exceptional sneakattack

Stunning fist, Stunning blow, Frozen tunic, Improved deception, Stonedust wraps(while leveling), Bluff (for rednames)

Precision, opportunist

You will get sneak damage whenever you want.

Plus assassin III gives you ---> 'Your lethality is unmatched in battle, any sneak attack roll that is a natural 20 (followed by critical confirmation) counts a vorpal strike and will kill most living targets with HP less than 1,000. For an enemy with more health, it does a mere 100 extra damage. '

[Mastikator]

The 7/13 split is for a second rogue special feat, I want both opportunist and improved evasion. the last level is either a 7th monk level for wholeness of body, but honestly a level in fighter for an extra feat is probably better, not sure what I'll get.

Thanks for the input guys, I think I have it figured out.

[Runaway]

Monk 9 gets improved evasion for free, so rogue10/monk9 or rogue13/monk6 makes no difference for feats.

And an edit: you can also consider druid for leftover level -> ram's might

[Clayness]

I was just about to say that, my 9 monk/11 rogue build had improved evasion and opportunist as well.

[wax_on_wax_off]

"Not your Average Rogue" in my sig is one way to do it. 15d6+25 SA multiplied by 1.5x vs helpless enemies (or more if you have sense weakness) makes for some very sweet trash destruction and the handwraps/assassin III combo ensures tha you do some very competitive boss DPS. Finally, headin into epic levels you finally have something to do with your Ki with GMoF destiny which I'm absolutely loving, really adds a whole new dimension to the build being able to lay down AoE CC/instant kills.

If I was to finish my other characters, have a lot of time on my hands, +xp was going and I'd pulled +4 str and wis tomes I'd consider a TR into a 12+ monk build with lots of SA (either through 7 rogue or rogue dilettante), overwhelming critical and vorpal strikes.

9/11 builds aren't good, either 12 rogue for Improved Sneak Attack or 12 monk for Vorpal Strikes/Improved Martial Arts. The on-hit vorpal vs everything is a core part of this build and I definitely wouldn't do it without it (DPS wise it means that rogue 18 trumps every other combination except for the one detailed above - on hit vorpal adds 8-14 damage vs almost all trash).

[Clayness]

I still think 9/11 has some merit since he says he only wants a rogue past life and he isn't concerned about epic levels (where a 12 monk/8 rogue build would get access to vorpal strikes and improved martial arts). It does though depend on at what levels you take which classes, if you reach 9 monk late in the levelling process (and therefore only get access to TOD late) I would probably recommend 2 monk/18 rogue.

Since TOD was nerfed in the expansion (you used to be able to land it more than the mere 1-2 times per use you can now), it is less critical to build around TOD, so I do agree with WOWO, 2 monk/18 rogue or 12 monk/8 rogue will perform better in epic levels. But for levelling you will not really get sneak attack all the time, your stunning fist/stunning blow will be on timer since you will kill things faster than the time it takes for the timer to reset. Personally I would prefer slightly higher base damage and touch of death than more SA.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I still think 9/11 has some merit since he says he only wants a rogue past life and he isn't concerned about epic levels (where a 12 monk/8 rogue build would get access to vorpal strikes and improved martial arts). It does though depend on at what levels you take which classes, if you reach 9 monk late in the levelling process (and therefore only get access to TOD late) I would probably recommend 2 monk/18 rogue.

Since TOD was nerfed in the expansion (you used to be able to land it more than the mere 1-2 times per use you can now), it is less critical to build around TOD, so I do agree with WOWO, 2 monk/18 rogue or 12 monk/8 rogue will perform better in epic levels. But for levelling you will not really get sneak attack all the time, your stunning fist/stunning blow will be on timer since you will kill things faster than the time it takes for the timer to reset. Personally I would prefer slightly higher base damage and touch of death than more SA.

Heh, that was my plan too but I loved the build so much that I still haven't TR'd it a year later so maybe better not go that split after all >>

Few more options with the build now. Can go human and splash 1 Druid for Rams Might which would be better for leveling and let you take PL: DotF too I think.

[Kinerd]

Heh, that was my plan too but I loved the build so much that I still haven't TR'd it a year later so maybe better not go that split after all >>

This, big time. A TR will get you +1 sneak attack damage. Going into Epic Destinies will get you +21. 20 times the benefit for 1/6th of the work, seems like an easy call to me.

Also worth mentioning that the relative SA gap between pure rogue and 19/1mnk has dramatically diminished. It's still a loss of 4d6, but instead of a base of 13d6 + 12 + 8 (~20%) it's now 13d6 + 12 + 8 + 6d6 Shadowdancer + 5 exceptional + 3d6 ISA (~12%). It's a great time for roonks.

[wax_on_wax_off]

This, big time. A TR will get you +1 sneak attack damage. Going into Epic Destinies will get you +21. 20 times the benefit for 1/6th of the work, seems like an easy call to me.

Also worth mentioning that the relative SA gap between pure rogue and 19/1mnk has dramatically diminished. It's still a loss of 4d6, but instead of a base of 13d6 + 12 + 8 (~20%) it's now 13d6 + 12 + 8 + 6d6 Shadowdancer + 5 exceptional + 3d6 ISA (~12%). It's a great time for roonks.

And with he attack speed difference the rate of application of SA is identical between a 19/1 and a 20 iirc and just a smidgen less for 18/2.

Having as much SA DPS as a pure rogue and adding stunning fist and GMoF abilities on top ... It's a fun build.

[wax_on_wax_off]

This, big time. A TR will get you +1 sneak attack damage. Going into Epic Destinies will get you +21. 20 times the benefit for 1/6th of the work, seems like an easy call to me.

Also worth mentioning that the relative SA gap between pure rogue and 19/1mnk has dramatically diminished. It's still a loss of 4d6, but instead of a base of 13d6 + 12 + 8 (~20%) it's now 13d6 + 12 + 8 + 6d6 Shadowdancer + 5 exceptional + 3d6 ISA (~12%). It's a great time for roonks.

And with he attack speed difference the rate of application of SA is identical between a 19/1 and a 20 iirc and just a smidgen less for 18/2.

Having as much SA DPS as a pure rogue and adding stunning fist and GMoF abilities on top ... It's a fun build.

I would probably go human 18 rogue/1 monk/1 Druid though.

[katz]

i just leveled Pickt up as 13 rogue/7 monk. it was an utter blast to play

remember... stunned mobs count as helpless, so in addition to sneak attack, your regular hits are harder too.

[Engar1]

Slightly necro, but only by a few months...

I was planning to go 13 rogue / 6 fighter / 1 monk.

There seem to be some number crunchers about this thread, any major downside vs the 13r/6m/1d?

[WruntJunior]

Slightly necro, but only by a few months...

I was planning to go 13 rogue / 6 fighter / 1 monk.

There seem to be some number crunchers about this thread, any major downside vs the 13r/6m/1d?

1d6 sneak attack damage, loses ram's might, .5[1d6] unarmed damage, and biggest one - loses shadow fade.

However, you can pick up kensai 1, grabbing +1 DC, 1 action boost, and a bit of extra ki gen (along with +1 damage, +2 seeker, and +1 damage from weapon specialization and kensai specified weapon mastery). This does cost you 1 feat, though.

I may have missed something, but overall, it looks like a net loss of damage to go with the fighter levels.