Bravery Bonus Modification

[Spoonwelder]

I am finding running my TRs up that the problem with the bravery bonus is that there is always a very thin band of quests that I can run for full bonus. Ie. If I am level 5 I am looking only to do level 3 quests on Elite. So I hit the LFM and see people doing quests a level above or a level below etc... but rarely exactly what will fit into my plan. So....I solo - not as fun but I can so I do.

I suggest an alternative to the bravery bonus that will expand the level range you can get full bonus while still encouraging players to do stuff at higher difficulties. The idea brings back the old underlevel bonusing plus the current BB system and merges them into the Bravery Grid.

Think of it as an axs with Difficulty level on the Y and Level Variance from quest level on the X with a range of +2 to -2 (ie. +2 means you are two levels over base quest level). Thus you have a 15 unit grid. And don't forget there are already penalties for bother over level questing and powerleveliing - those are not included in this grid so there would be penalties for overlevel questing just not part of the bravery bonusgrid.

Current Bravery Bonus would work out like this:

Difficulty Level Var Bonus
Normal 0+/-1+,+/-2 0%
Hard 0+/-1+,+/-2 75%
Elite 0+/-1+,+/-2 150%

New system would be as in the linked image;
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1...Vwz0VYxOA/edit

[SirValentine]

I am finding running my TRs up that the problem with the bravery bonus is that there is always a very thin band of quests that I can run for full bonus. Ie. If I am level 5 I am looking only to do level 3 quests on Elite.

While the LOWEST level you can get full bonus for are the level 3s, there's nothing stopping you from getting full bonus on your level 5 character for doing level 4 or level 5 quests on Elite. More challenge, too.

If they gave XP bonuses for under-levelling, the TR/zerg crowd would figure out the best way to exploit it, and meanwhile, the newbies would even more get suckered into trying to do content way over their head.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it would actually work out well.

[gphysalis]

I am finding running my TRs up that the problem with the bravery bonus is that there is always a very thin band of quests that I can run for full bonus. Ie. If I am level 5 I am looking only to do level 3 quests on Elite.

um, you could run lvl 3-7 quests for bravery bonus (that's 5 lvls of quests, not a particularly thin band)

The only reason that you don't is that you feel the need to run lvl 3 quests at lvl 5

The actual problem is then probably the reason you feel the need to run lvl 3 quests at lvl 5, which is the feeling that banking is good, which is caused by the lack of xp for high level quests.

So, turbine should increase the xp of lvl 18-19 quests, and people won't feel the need to run lvl 3 quests at lvl 5 anymore

[licho]

When You are at level 5 there is no reason to run level 6-7 on elite.
Its quite opposite, since at top levels there is not much xp, and the quests are quite long with poor xp. And it carry on, you dont want run Vale too early, so no GH, so no VoN, so no Tear/Gladewach/Xoriat.
There is even less reason to run 1st time quest on anything but elite, since losing 70% on 1st run, and regressive 50-10 on 5 next is too big loss considering tr xp demands.

Personally i think they should rethink the total xp systems, and change:
- Bring up to level xp from 18-20 quests.
- Buff xp in various quests from 1 to 20 which are just dont pay off the effort needed to complete. (Threnal is good example)
- Remove breaver streak altogether, since it only makes grouping harder:
"Sorry havent unlocked this quests yet, cant run Hard, have fun, ciao"
- Increase isntead the 1st time bonus per difficulty, it dosnt matter if i run quests on elite for the 1st time or after normal and hard. And it matter even less if its my 1st elite, or 6th in streak.
- Maybe add some difficulty bonus in base xp. The current 5%/10% seems to be rather low.
- CHange the whole aproach to tr xp, and instead making it double scaling, left it plain +50%/+100% xp at all levels.

[gphysalis]

- Increase isntead the 1st time bonus per difficulty, it dosnt matter if i run quests on elite for the 1st time or after normal and hard. And it matter even less if its my 1st elite, or 6th in streak.

I like this suggestion
that would promote running multiple quests a few times each,
and combined with increasing the xp of certain quests, would help reduce the importance of banking

[BOgre]

I like this suggestion
that would promote running multiple quests a few times each,
and combined with increasing the xp of certain quests, would help reduce the importance of banking

not signed. there's more than enough content to allow us to level, with or without bravery bonus. There's more than enough players to allow us to find PUGs that fit our needs, with or without bb.

[soulaeon]

Considering that they let us keep our streak through each lives, and the fact that a lot of us have reincarnated without any such bonuses: not signed.
If you have limited content, farm for more. Plan which quests you need for levels. Dont do anything more than 2 levels higher or 2 levels lower.

[licho]

Considering that they let us keep our streak through each lives, and the fact that a lot of us have reincarnated without any such bonuses: not signed.
If you have limited content, farm for more. Plan which quests you need for levels. Dont do anything more than 2 levels higher or 2 levels lower.

Thank You for instructions, without your insight we will never get to know how to deal with the current xp system.

However, it not makes PUGing any easier if:
- everyone need to watch his streak, if he joins PUG on hard or normal he will be punished severly on this and future runs
- there is window of 2 leveles when you should made the quests to fully use xp potencial
- not to mention folks who dont finish chains so they may use xp on higher level.

[soulaeon]

Thank You for instructions, without your insight we will never get to know how to deal with the current xp system.

I know, right.

The solution to those problems is not throwing more experience at us, because the amount we can get is already ridiculous. What you are describing suggests we need less.
Rather than a flat change to the bravery system, why not change how each life effects bravery. The more lives you get, the greater bonus you get from bravery up to what it is now. So the first life has little or no bravery, so one will be free to do any quest in any order they like without a problem.

[BuyTiles]

When there was no bravery bonus, and on a TR2 it still wasn't difficult to cap.
I remember doing TR2 before lordsmarch was released and it still wasn't difficult to cap.
I remember doing TR2 before learning tomes were released and it still wasn't hard to cap.
If you're having problems maintaining your bravery bonus because of groups, post your own lfms.
If you're running out of quests at level, bank 1 full level.
I just completed my last life with over 3000 favor, and still haven't done most amrath,house c,2nd part of madness chain or most of the new eveningstar content or reavers reach.

I find posting lfms with the tag 'elite.bb.' and setting the level range correctly works a treat.

Oh, and I did it without any xp pots.

The amount of xp in the game is silly compared to the xp needs.

You could ignore bravery bonus and still cap without sweating it.

[Spoonwelder]

I guess where I am coming from is the TR3 world where you need 4.3M to cap. There is more than enough XP in the game doing just elite everything and maybe farm a few really good XP quests here and there to avoid some content you don't like.

Banking to me really only kicks in around L12 or 13 and is really important at L16 so you can basically bank through 17 and avoid the wasteland that is L15 quests.

Thus my grid.....it allows you to run quests for the 150% Full Elite Bravery Bonus across a wider range of quests. That way if I see an LFM for a L7 quest on normal when I am L5 I can join it without fear of losing my elite streak or not maximizing my XP for that quest.

I know TR zergers will abuse the system a bit but that is the case for any system. It would just change the pattern of quests for some. But for people who TR solo alot it would provide a wider range of options and make pugging off the LFM board more fruitful....plus as I said it would allow vets to pug with newer players. I know I see alot of LFMs for quests on normal out of my 'BB quest band' that I would join if it wasn't going to kick my XP needs in the teeth.

No system will be perfect but the one we have now really seems to segregate the player base.

[BuyTiles]

No system will be perfect but the one we have now really seems to segregate the player base.

It was segregated before by pug hating and private channels. I'd actually say it's better now, as losing 10% xp when you're getting the 1st time elite bonus+bravery bonus means it's easier to take the first 5 and roll.
Once the elite streak is out of the way, it's easy to join pugs and rerun the quests on other difficulty levels.

[GoRinNoSho]

IMO the reason that bravery bonus was put in in the first place was to buy time to fill in more quest space.

The more quests to do on that level, the more xp to get on a normal run through.

During the intro to bravery bonus they also bumped up elite from 50% to 80%. At the time also, for instance, the only 16 quests were the vale quests. Adding the expansion prep quests increased the count by 3. Making it better.

With each pack they had been introducing, they had been attempting to patch areas in the TR level grind to where you can go through with less and less repeat. Harbinger of Madness helped out 15s. Droam 12-13s, etc.

If there were at least 15 quests at each level then the need for bravery bonus would be less as you could just run through the quests at normal xp and get what you need. Even now, the Druid's Curse chain is filling in the 17 gap. Granted there is a duplicity between it and the 20+ gap.

In this case time/more content is the cure and it will come naturally.

[Systern]

Dr. Streaklove or How I learned to stop worrying and love the grind.

So I'm working on my first TR2 (3rd life) character. I'm a premium player so this is the first time I can open elite by myself and I wanted to check out how much the streak impacts playing. Here's what my experience has taught me so far:

The streak is misleading.
The really big number there that people obsess about keeping isn't accurate. An Elite streak of 270 gives no more XP than a streak of 5.
Your XP/Min while waiting on pugs and running over to the next cherry-picked quest is 0.
Breaking your Elite streak to get a Hard Bravery bonus is a difference of 25% bonus.
The next 5 elites you run after doing this will give bonuses of 25%, 25%, 25%, 30%, 40% and then you're back getting the 50% bonus.
That difference in xp, that missed opportunity, is less than the xp you make by actually playing the game, often completing hard difficulty in substantially less time.



The problem you described in your post isn't a flaw in the system. It's a flaw in human perception that makes some people think that quantifiably large values of "eliteness" is mandatory, or good. "I am 278 streaks Elite. Yaa Me." The streak length is not a tape-measure, and "Elite" is an arbitrary description of the difficulty setting. Since you're not enjoying measuring yourself by this standard (as the purpose of this post is to try and change the measuring system), stop trying to measure yourself by it. This is a game; enjoy playing it. You have a variety of options on ways to enjoy it.

[Spoonwelder]

Dr. Streaklove or How I learned to stop worrying and love the grind.

So I'm working on my first TR2 (3rd life) character. I'm a premium player so this is the first time I can open elite by myself and I wanted to check out how much the streak impacts playing. Here's what my experience has taught me so far:

The streak is misleading.
The really big number there that people obsess about keeping isn't accurate. An Elite streak of 270 gives no more XP than a streak of 5.
Your XP/Min while waiting on pugs and running over to the next cherry-picked quest is 0.
Breaking your Elite streak to get a Hard Bravery bonus is a difference of 25% bonus.
The next 5 elites you run after doing this will give bonuses of 25%, 25%, 25%, 30%, 40% and then you're back getting the 50% bonus.
That difference in xp, that missed opportunity, is less than the xp you make by actually playing the game, often completing hard difficulty in substantially less time.



The problem you described in your post isn't a flaw in the system. It's a flaw in human perception that makes some people think that quantifiably large values of "eliteness" is mandatory, or good. "I am 278 streaks Elite. Yaa Me." The streak length is not a tape-measure, and "Elite" is an arbitrary description of the difficulty setting. Since you're not enjoying measuring yourself by this standard (as the purpose of this post is to try and change the measuring system), stop trying to measure yourself by it. This is a game; enjoy playing it. You have a variety of options on ways to enjoy it.

We are probably saying the same thing but just to clarify - the reason I was using 150% and 75% in my grid was due to how the various bravery and first time bonuses hit at elite/hard

From the Wiki (http://ddowiki.com/page/Bravery_Bonus
Hard (75%) = First time bonus (40%) + Bravery (10%) + Streak (25%)
Elite (150%) = First time bonus (80%) + Bravery (20%) + Streak (50%)

That 75% difference (on base XP and optionals) has a fairly significant impact - I have a spreadsheet that does a rough approximation of the XP available in the game from running each quest once with estimated bonuses applied. If you just switch from Elite to Hard for all quests you drop 800k of xp across the 284 quests. This probably adds about 10-20 hours of questing (depending on your XP/min).

I agree with you that running on hard will generally get quests done faster (not always -ie. timed quests). But some of your issues - grouping, waiting on pugs are the same regardless of your difficulty level. BUT i think this bravery grid would help in that you can look at the LFM and have a wider range of acceptable quests to do as a TR and thus could more likely get into a pug that is going to get going faster.

My biggest issue with using the LFM are - no quests in the range I am running on my TR (ie. one single level band) and even if I join a PUG the fact that it takes too long to fill and get everyone to the quest and ready. If the pugs would at least fill faster, which should happen if more quests were available to pug into, then getting going would also happen faster. Ie. if I am at level 5 I could join bloody crypt on hard and get the same bonus as if I wait until L8 and to do it on elite. That would also mean I am more likely to join pugs for the flagging quests at different levels.

I know someone would just build another optimal path....but for those of us not trying/able to TR in 30hours adding options would be nice.

[Systern]

I doubt it will matter if we change to your proposed grid or not. As long as there are permanent, lasting, repetition penalties people will look to not miss the opportunity for XP.

The reality of the game is that there's a glut of XP available, and more is being added. There's enough XP in just wilderness areas to cap a 1st life toon, without running a single quest. I looked this up back before the expansion, so that doesn't even include the wilderness areas in Faerun.

People spend the time for 324 optional xp in quests, even though it's more efficient, pragmatic, optimal, or beneficial to skip them and run another quest in that time.

Waiting on a harder, longer, less efficient Elite quest is human nature, unfortunately.
So is taking the lump-sum payout for Lotteries although it's more money in the long run to take the installments.

[SirValentine]

People spend the time for 324 optional xp in quests, even though it's more efficient, pragmatic, optimal, or beneficial to skip them and run another quest in that time.

Waiting on a harder, longer, less efficient Elite quest is human nature, unfortunately.

{sarcasm} Man, it sure is "unfortunate" that human nature makes people want to run more challenging, more fun, and more varied content in a GAME, of all things, instead of the efficient, pragmatic, optimal and benficial methods like repeating the same quest on a sleep-walking difficulty 12 times in a row. {/sarcasm}

The wonderful thing about the Bravery Bonus was not that it made running lots of quests BETTER than the ultra-zerg ultra-repeat XP/min farm methods, but that it closed the gap somewhat, so you could enjoy more content without totally gimping your levelling. Now it only slightly gimps levelling, while still being way more challenging, varied, and fun.

[Machination]

Well to the OP there are threads miles long you should have a look at the plethora of complaints, comments, suggestions, and love for the BB system already posted.

Just from my experience I will say this:

1. It sounds like you have a decent leveling plan, which is good. What can be frustrating is having a leveling plan that is a little too rigid and locks you out of groups that would actually make the process faster, and not hinder your progress in any way. Your example of level 5 is a good one, and here's how I would tackle a toon when I'm at level 5:

a. If LFM up for lvl 3,4,5 quest on Elite that I know is in my level plan (and is something I want to PUG), hit it and go.
b. Level 3 Elite (which is the priority to get out of the way while still level 5), solo or post your own LFM. I highlight post your own LFM because you did not mention that you do that in your OP.

There is no reason to limit yourself ONLY to level 3 elite quests at character lvl 5. It can be faster if you see a TR group you know to run lvl 4,5, even 6 quests on elite once while you have a fast strong group available. The fact is the problem is not the ED system, the problem is there is a shortage of good groups at every single level and any given time at the momment (at least on Khyber) and there are other posts discussing that problem which I'm not going to get into.

2. Before there was BB, there were other bonuses. Yes, we all remember the +xx% xp to run the quest x levels UNDER the quest level. Yes, we all remember when every time you died your character XP achieved bar would go down (that was not popular I assure you). The fact is, no matter what changes to the BB system there will be many complaints, many suggestions for change, and many people not happy with it, in particular on these forums. The current system is very easy to work around (see the many other threads on the subject for details).

3. There is so much heroic xp in the game now, and XP tomes, and free pots now and again and that drop and be used during strategic XP farming (not even counting purchasing pots), and BB XP, that losing BB once or twice or three times in a life just does not matter. I do it every life if the XP per min is going to be faster to do so.

I am finding running my TRs up that the problem with the bravery bonus is that there is always a very thin band of quests that I can run for full bonus. Ie. If I am level 5 I am looking only to do level 3 quests on Elite. So I hit the LFM and see people doing quests a level above or a level below etc... but rarely exactly what will fit into my plan. So....I solo - not as fun but I can so I do.

I suggest an alternative to the bravery bonus that will expand the level range you can get full bonus while still encouraging players to do stuff at higher difficulties. The idea brings back the old underlevel bonusing plus the current BB system and merges them into the Bravery Grid.

Think of it as an axs with Difficulty level on the Y and Level Variance from quest level on the X with a range of +2 to -2 (ie. +2 means you are two levels over base quest level). Thus you have a 15 unit grid. And don't forget there are already penalties for bother over level questing and powerleveliing - those are not included in this grid so there would be penalties for overlevel questing just not part of the bravery bonusgrid.

Current Bravery Bonus would work out like this:

Difficulty Level Var Bonus
Normal 0+/-1+,+/-2 0%
Hard 0+/-1+,+/-2 75%
Elite 0+/-1+,+/-2 150%

New system would be as in the linked image;
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1...Vwz0VYxOA/edit