Another Paladin Mount Thread

[EbbOnFire]

Just as a thought experiment, imagine the problems that would arise and the effort required to address them if you wanted to make a different change: adding Centaur as a playable PC race.

So right off, you've got sizing and animation issues. You can't restrict the PC from going into a subset of dungeons, so you have to figure out some way to make it work with all existing dungeons without looking really goofy. That includes:
- Climbing ladders
- Scrambling up narrow ledges
- Swimming, both on the surface and underwater
- Corridors with low ceilings
- Jumping on things with small footprints -- floor buttons, Shroud lights, traps, those pillars in Rainbow in the Dark...

Now it's okay to say that most quests would work fine, and only some would have problems. But the DDO code doesn't have a flag in it right now for "okay for big 4-legged beasties". The closest you've got is perhaps "quest vs. explorer zone". So everything has to be reexamined, and some things potentially altered. You can't have a flag that says "horse not able to be ridden here" unless you go through and exhaustively check and test everything.

Because it's borderline okay to have goofy Artificer dog animations and teleporting hirelings in order to get around this stuff, but it's not going to be okay when it's your PC. To say nothing of the suspension of disbelief. It's bad enough that the guests in Partycrashers don't turn their heads when two bears, a mindflayer, a hezrou and a halfling walk into a bar like it's some kind of bad joke... Now they have to be polite and ignore the man riding on an 1800 pound warhorse too? Remember, the DDO game doesn't know if you're "inside" or "outside" -- the terms don't have any meaning, unless some dev takes the time to go through and flag each and every area.

I'd submit that the "paladin on a horse" is going to run into all of these same things, and so would require a really substantial amount of effort to get right. This doesn't even address game mechanics -- extra damage, or how it affects your reflex save, or whatever. This is just the baseline "don't make it look stupid" check.


Even if you restrict things to Explorer zones, you still have to deal with the goofiness. Do you let the paladin ride his mount up into the Gnoll village in Meredia? If not, how do you code for that? I'm sure the engine doesn't distinguish between "place you could ride a horse" and "place that you can't". It's okay to have beasties that are bigger than human size, because the developer places those individually where they make sense. Not so much for the Lone Ranger riding Silver into every crypt in the Orchard.

Basically, I think mounts (like flying) are something that have to be designed in from the start. You can't retrofit them onto an existing world that has already made lots of assumptions about the size of PCs and their basic animations without more headache than is justified by the benefits.

Would it be cool? Sure. Do paladins need a boost in power? Definitely. Is there a way to do it cost-effectively? Not that I see.

[cdbd3rd]

... most of those mounts usually died horribly due being left some to close to monsters while we did our questing.

Are you SURE you've never played in any of my games over the years? Another thing I was notorious for as a DM.

Horses tied to a tree - what a tasty snack.


Insult on top of injury = the characters left their lances outside with the horses, which were then used for spits to cook said horses on over an open fire.

[LeoLionxxx]

Just as a thought experiment, imagine the problems that would arise and the effort required to address them if you wanted to make a different change: adding Centaur as a playable PC race.

So right off, you've got sizing and animation issues. You can't restrict the PC from going into a subset of dungeons, so you have to figure out some way to make it work with all existing dungeons without looking really goofy. That includes:
- Climbing ladders
- Scrambling up narrow ledges
- Swimming, both on the surface and underwater
- Corridors with low ceilings
- Jumping on things with small footprints -- floor buttons, Shroud lights, traps, those pillars in Rainbow in the Dark...

1) where did centaurs come up? Why are you talking of them, and what do they haveto do with paladins and mounts?

2) it was already covered how the mounted paladin would swim/hang/climb ect...

Now it's okay to say that most quests would work fine, and only some would have problems. But the DDO code doesn't have a flag in it right now for "okay for big 4-legged beasties". The closest you've got is perhaps "quest vs. explorer zone". So everything has to be reexamined, and some things potentially altered. You can't have a flag that says "horse not able to be ridden here" unless you go through and exhaustively check and test everything.
*SNIP*
I'd submit that the "paladin on a horse" is going to run into all of these same things, and so would require a really substantial amount of effort to get right. This doesn't even address game mechanics -- extra damage, or how it affects your reflex save, or whatever. This is just the baseline "don't make it look stupid" check.


Even if you restrict things to Explorer zones, you still have to deal with the goofiness. Do you let the paladin ride his mount up into the Gnoll village in Meredia? If not, how do you code for that? I'm sure the engine doesn't distinguish between "place you could ride a horse" and "place that you can't". It's okay to have beasties that are bigger than human size, because the developer places those individually where they make sense. Not so much for the Lone Ranger riding Silver into every crypt in the Orchard.

Basically, I think mounts (like flying) are something that have to be designed in from the start. You can't retrofit them onto an existing world that has already made lots of assumptions about the size of PCs and their basic animations without more headache than is justified by the benefits.

Would it be cool? Sure. Do paladins need a boost in power? Definitely. Is there a way to do it cost-effectively? Not that I see.

3) "4 legged beasties" have alreay been introduced with bear/wold druid forms. so it's not such a strech to have a horse jumping from cliff to cliff.

4) Again, we are NOT TALKING OF ADDING MOUNTS, only a paladin druid-like shapeshifing ability that creates the image of the player as being on a horse; just like how the player is percived as a bear/wolf. And I don't know how pepole keep throwing the flying card for this into the wind (pun intended.)

I don't see how mounts would work as far as animation goes...it be a major pain to implement and would look cheesy I think because of how fast paced the combat is in DDO.

Personally I think they should boost paladins by making their aura better...I think they should basically double the bonuses their aura provides to saves/AC of nearby allies. And make it give PPR and maybe dodge bonuses as well to allies near them.

We did have a little discussion about that:

With the graphics issues of combat, I could see a possible resolution - while standing still, the horse and rider are facing forward. When you begin to swing, the horse cants to one side, possibly tilted to the left while you swing forward/partially to the right. Even two weapon fighting could be considered, with a thrust attack made by the off hand. This can graphically allow you to still fight enemies ahead of you. Cleave and Greatcleave could be the horse rearing up, and then crashing down as the rider slashes to the side. A trip could be a downward thrust of the weapon, as if the rider's aiming low - or the horse could stomp on an enemy's foot, give a low kick or something.

Of course, seeing a paladin with a spear or perhaps even a lance could be fun as well. It could even use the same mechanics for damage that the druid's forms do - you get the form's damage dice and crit range, but weapon properties carry over. As for the basic attack animation, although the head of a spear or point of a lance is the focus of the weapon, the shaft can still be used to strike enemies. It's not ideal, but could add variation to the attack process.

The idea might need a little work, but all it is is animating the attacks diffrently; again, like has been done for bear/wolf. If we can figure out how it should look, this could very possibly be implemented.


TO ALL: before posting on this thread, please at least skim through what has previosly been posted. I know, 40+ is a lot, but please, lets try to keep the conversation flowing without having to backtrack on what's already been said.

[Therrias]

This is what it should look like in my opinion.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/pa...ePaladinsMount

[cdbd3rd]

This is what it should look like in my opinion.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/pa...ePaladinsMount

"Empathic Link (Su)
The paladin has an empathic link with her mount out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The paladin cannot see through the mount’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically."



And when the pally tried to urge the mount down into waterworks, the 'empathic message' would probably be clear on the horse's opinion.

Should said horse still be forced to enter, would chuckle at the d6+ ceiling damage the Pally takes every time the horse jumps in the sewer tunnels.

[maddmatt70]

This response.

Thank you.

Seriously, the Paladin mount is a huge deal to the Paladin, one of the many reasons, in PnP, the Paladin is considered a Tier II class (with fighters and barbs being strongly in Tier IV, if that). Of course, PnP is a completely different game, but it doesn't have to be.

On top of that, Uska's belief that he's never seen this in PnP... well, assume you've been playing since the game came out (version 3.0-3.5) and had a regular, weekly game year long, that's maybe 10 different GMs you could have had. Not much of a large pool of people.

In my TWO, just TWO PnP 3.0 groups I'd played with, a Paladin's mount was a HUGE deal. So, according to me, I could say I've never seen a PnP game not balanced with a Paladin's mount in mind.

Granted, a Paladin, in PnP, can get a Unicorn, Dragon or other crazy overpowered mount by end game. So... there's that. I mean, my wife's Unicorn mount, in PnP (we were just dating then, so girlfriend's...) was stronger than our Cleric, so basically... she had her character AND a cleric while I had a samurai with a really cool sword...

I made a poor choice in class.

That decision aside, in PnP, Paladins REALLY ARE BALANCED WITH MOUNTS IN MIND, and they got nothing in DDO to rebalance them.

.

This is 100% correct the Paladin mount is very powerful in Dungeons and Dragons and Dungeons and Dragons balances the paladin with this powerful mount in mind yet in DDO we get no mount and nothing in return for not having a mount. A paladin on horseback charging at an enemy with a lance in D&D 3.5 is one of the most terrifying things a player can do - yet here in DDO we can not do that and get nothing in return for not being able to do so.

To USKA a buddy of mine in 3.5 D&D played a paladin with a greatsword while riding a mount and with all the bonuses to charging and smite evil and divine might feat and some of the pally spells could do for over 200 pts of damage as part of ride by attack and end the attack out of the attackers range for later that or the next round. Even at low levels trained mounts are great because they can damage attackers and there are occasions that a mount is a better attacker then the person riding the mount.

[EbbOnFire]

1) where did centaurs come up? Why are you talking of them, and what do they haveto do with paladins and mounts?

2) it was already covered how the mounted paladin would swim/hang/climb ect...


3) "4 legged beasties" have alreay been introduced with bear/wold druid forms. so it's not such a strech to have a horse jumping from cliff to cliff.

4) Again, we are NOT TALKING OF ADDING MOUNTS, only a paladin druid-like shapeshifing ability that creates the image of the player as being on a horse; just like how the player is percived as a bear/wolf. And I don't know how pepole keep throwing the flying card for this into the wind (pun intended.)








We did have a little discussion about that:




The idea might need a little work, but all it is is animating the attacks diffrently; again, like has been done for bear/wolf. If we can figure out how it should look, this could very possibly be implemented.


TO ALL: before posting on this thread, please at least skim through what has previosly been posted. I know, 40+ is a lot, but please, lets try to keep the conversation flowing without having to backtrack on what's already been said.

Yep, read and understood the entire thread, thanks. Obviously we've got different opinions here. I think you're severely underestimating the amount of work required to implement something like this. I brought up centaurs as an example of a creature that would be as tall, long and wide as a mounted rider, in hopes that getting people to visualize a centaur squeezing through the existing dungeon layouts and interacting with the people-scale objects in the world might help others see the mismatch more clearly. If you like, use another creature of similar size. Sure, we have druids in bear form now. But could you have a PC the size of the dire bears in the King's Forest? Your opinion is that the graphical issues would be minor and solvable; I don't see it that way. But it's just a thought experiment anyway, so probably not worth spending more time arguing about.

Ok, I lied. One more run at it:

Could you have Frost Giant PC's in the game? Certainly you can see how that would look ridiculous, right? Their heads would be through the ceiling in most dungeons, they'd be clipping through walls as they go through doors (unless you design a special animation for "crouch and crawl through"), they'd completely fill sewer pipes as they swam through. When they climbed the shaft in Coal Chamber they'd constantly have one leg on a ledge and one leg hanging out in space. They'd be shifting to climbing animation to move over barriers no higher than their shin. Obviously that wouldn't work without a ton of effort, right?

So what I'm saying is that a realistic depiction of a human-sized rider on a normal-sized horse would run into lots of similar, though less aggravated, issues. We can disagree on the extent of those issues and how easy or hard they'd be to solve, certainly. And we can definitely disagree on how much the new feature would add to the game, as compared to the work required.

[maddmatt70]

Could you have Frost Giant PC's in the game? Certainly you can see how that would look ridiculous, right? Their heads would be through the ceiling in most dungeons, they'd be clipping through walls as they go through doors (unless you design a special animation for "crouch and crawl through"), they'd completely fill sewer pipes as they swam through. When they climbed the shaft in Coal Chamber they'd constantly have one leg on a ledge and one leg hanging out in space. They'd be shifting to climbing animation to move over barriers no higher than their shin. Obviously that wouldn't work without a ton of effort, right?
.

Just how different would a frost giant be when compared to a bear? Really how much larger would a horse have to be compared to a bear? I am not saying you do not have a point or if the dev time is necessarily worth it, but at least some sort of alternative bump to pallys should be worked out. At least allow my pallys to move 20% faster in non rough terrain for god sake....

[countfitz]

Think we scrapped having it a pet before we started disscussing it.

Yes, does seem like it would be awkward to toggle between mounted and not when hanging/climbing, but not sure what could be done to fix that. Guess just stick with 'it's a magical horse, it does what it wants'.

That's how it's done in PnP, so yeah, magical horse that can literally appear out of nowhere.

[countfitz]

What to apply the new shape-shifting mechanics to... let me think, how about the level 9 shapechange spell that isn't in the game!?? Also gaseous form would be cool.

I feel like this would end up being another gimpy useless pet running around adding nothing of value to my paladin unless your going to give me some amazing movement speed buff.

Zerg faster?

You would, if we went with the PnP suggestions and a simple animation change, a bonus to speed, spell resistance, and maybe a few more buffs, akin to druids being in form. So yeah, Zerg faster.

[LeoLionxxx]

Yep, read and understood the entire thread, thanks. Obviously we've got different opinions here. I think you're severely underestimating the amount of work required to implement something like this. I brought up centaurs as an example of a creature that would be as tall, long and wide as a mounted rider, in hopes that getting people to visualize a centaur squeezing through the existing dungeon layouts and interacting with the people-scale objects in the world might help others see the mismatch more clearly. If you like, use another creature of similar size. Sure, we have druids in bear form now. But could you have a PC the size of the dire bears in the King's Forest? Your opinion is that the graphical issues would be minor and solvable; I don't see it that way. But it's just a thought experiment anyway, so probably not worth spending more time arguing about.

Ok, I lied. One more run at it:

Could you have Frost Giant PC's in the game? Certainly you can see how that would look ridiculous, right? Their heads would be through the ceiling in most dungeons, they'd be clipping through walls as they go through doors (unless you design a special animation for "crouch and crawl through"), they'd completely fill sewer pipes as they swam through. When they climbed the shaft in Coal Chamber they'd constantly have one leg on a ledge and one leg hanging out in space. They'd be shifting to climbing animation to move over barriers no higher than their shin. Obviously that wouldn't work without a ton of effort, right?

So what I'm saying is that a realistic depiction of a human-sized rider on a normal-sized horse would run into lots of similar, though less aggravated, issues. We can disagree on the extent of those issues and how easy or hard they'd be to solve, certainly. And we can definitely disagree on how much the new feature would add to the game, as compared to the work required.

Okay, sorry, jumped the gun to a conclusion there I guess.

I see what you're getting at with the sizing issues. I did think of that, looked at my bear druid, and said to myself: I could fit a person of there. But of course, a horse isn't a bit bigger than a bear, it can be a lot taller. A solution to this could be to ditch exact reality, and have the horse a bit smaller than it would be commpared to RL. I'm thinking that on the horse (call it 'young celestial steed'?), the head of the paladin would be about 1.5X its normal height. That looks plausable, what do you think?

[EbbOnFire]

Okay, sorry, jumped the gun to a conclusion there I guess.

I see what you're getting at with the sizing issues. I did think of that, looked at my bear druid, and said to myself: I could fit a person of there. But of course, a horse isn't a bit bigger than a bear, it can be a lot taller. A solution to this could be to ditch exact reality, and have the horse a bit smaller than it would be commpared to RL. I'm thinking that on the horse (call it 'young celestial steed'?), the head of the paladin would be about 1.5X its normal height. That looks plausable, what do you think?

Well, the devil's in the details, as they say. I'm not an artist, but I have been around enough horses to know that they're really, really big. If you factor in that you'd have to handle things like half-orc paladins (who aren't going to be seen dead riding around on little celestial ponies), then my gut tells me you couldn't really make it work without bringing in a boatload of dwarven contractors to expand all of the dungeons. But who knows -- stranger things have happened.

[Worldcrafter]

Clearly, the solution is reverse scaling. Half orc and warforged paladins get a pony, humans and various elf breeds get a normal horse, halflings get Clydesdales. And dwarves get a goat, because no self-respecting dwarf rides horses.

Joking aside, at most I could imagine a mounted paladin being hezrou height. Give or take a little on how the DDO art department might want to design it, but effectively, there you go. Now, a hezrou is a tall and wide demon that can be summoned and lumbers around behind you when not going off to smash something in the face. It easily passes through doorways and arches that it dwarfs, without using its teleport. Should we suddenly call a stop and demand a recreation for all of the doors to fit hezrou through? And some of my characters summon earth elementals of various sizes, or the ice elementals when I had the gem. Some of those were larger then the doorways, yet we have merrily accepted this suspension of belief already. So why is this such a great issue for paladins on horseback?

I am very surprised at how quick people are to jump on the visuals of an idea without even giving the mechanics a thought. Is the graphical change from being on foot to being on a horse truly so detrimental to the game, despite the various workarounds that have been provided for the more awkward parts?

We have barely touched on anything mechanical. All we have is a vague idea for a speed boost and a couple of rough drafts for spells. We haven't even decided the amount of speed boost granted, or if it stacks with anything or not. Yet some people are acting like we're calling down the apocalypse because we want to put "a man on a horse," and it would forevermore ruin the game.

That being said, I propose the following as an initial suggestion:
* +20% Speed Boost.
* +1 Hit, +2 Damage. Being on horseback allows you to swing down with more force.
* Attacks become Lance damage, 1d8 piercing, x3 Crit. Gains the abilities of your equipped weapons. Counts as 2 hands for damage mod, but you still receive shield benefits.
* +2 Intimidate, +10% Incite. Someone on horseback is more threatening, especially if the horse is somewhere it shouldn't be. Go magical horse!
* -3 Reflex Save. It's a magical horse, but not a magical ninja horse.
* -10 Hide and Move Silently.
* Non-form spells have triple the normal cool down time.

Form Spells
- Level 1 -
* Divine Lance - You attack a target with +2[W]; every two seconds for the next 8 seconds, the target suffers an additional 1d4 good damage.
* Holy Spear - For the next 30 seconds, your melee attacks deal an extra +1d6 light damage to enemies. This is dispelled if you leave Mounted Combat Form.

- Level 2 -
* Trample - You deal 3+1d3 bludgeon damage per level to all enemies within a short distance of you, Reflex save for half.
* Glorious Strike - You attack a target, dealing +4[W]; the target also has to make a Will save or be stunned for 6 seconds.

- Level 3 -
* Heroic Charge - You charge forward a set distance, dealing +3[w] to all enemies in your path.

[fco-karatekid]

People have most likely been saying it ever since paladins could get to level four - they want the mount. Not everyone, perhaps, but it is an iconic aspect of paladins, and so far the only arguments I have seen against it have been people pointing out the ill-logic of having a horse in a dungeon. 3rd and 3.5 work around this by having it a summoned celestial steed, making it a bit easier to bring through narrow places. Or just play a halfling on a riding dog....What do you think would be good boons or drawbacks that would make having a mount fair...

Why not meet half-way. Give them the agreed-upon bonuses when there are two halflings in party... representing the fact the paladin strapped one to each boot?

[Worldcrafter]

Do hireling halflings count toward this, or does it have to be two player halflings?

[fco-karatekid]

Having played a Paladin in DDO for over 6 years, I thought I'd share my thoughts on this:

The issues I see are:
1) The quest designs don't have mounts in mind. There's tons of jumping, swimming, dungeon crawling, etc. and I think a mount would only realistically be useful in an outdoor setting; explorer areas, and any outdoor quests, Though the only time I've really wanted my Paladin mount was when I was running through the King's Forest...it seemed kind of wrong that traveling long distances in the wilderness I should have to run...

This is the very first thing I think of every time this thread pops up. It is the single most important reason this will just mess up too much if mounts are implemented for any class.

[LeoLionxxx]

That being said, I propose the following as an initial suggestion:
* +20% Speed Boost.
* +1 Hit, +2 Damage. Being on horseback allows you to swing down with more force.
* Attacks become Lance damage, 1d8 piercing, x3 Crit. Gains the abilities of your equipped weapons. Counts as 2 hands for damage mod, but you still receive shield benefits.
* +2 Intimidate, +10% Incite. Someone on horseback is more threatening, especially if the horse is somewhere it shouldn't be. Go magical horse!
* -3 Reflex Save. It's a magical horse, but not a magical ninja horse.
* -10 Hide and Move Silently.
* Non-form spells have triple the normal cool down time.

Form Spells
- Level 1 -
* Divine Lance - You attack a target with +2[W]; every two seconds for the next 8 seconds, the target suffers an additional 1d4 good damage.
* Holy Spear - For the next 30 seconds, your melee attacks deal an extra +1d6 light damage to enemies. This is dispelled if you leave Mounted Combat Form.

- Level 2 -
* Trample - You deal 3+1d3 bludgeon damage per level to all enemies within a short distance of you, Reflex save for half.
* Glorious Strike - You attack a target, dealing +4[W]; the target also has to make a Will save or be stunned for 6 seconds.

- Level 3 -
* Heroic Charge - You charge forward a set distance, dealing +3[w] to all enemies in your path.

Some issues to press on:

1) does the 20% stack with striding, override it, or the higher value taking effect?
I'm thinking the latter becuase, even though it doesn't make sense YOUR striding boots effect the horse, a 10% penalty off the maximum (30%) would be severly missed. Lets do same as the druid wolf forms, and have the 30% override the form's value; don't want people complaining that they are faster on foot than horseback.

2)Lance peircing damage:
If possible, lets not go with lances/spears over your normal gear. Paladins (as appose to druids) have proficency with martial weapons becuase they do much more damage than a simple weapon, and, in 1st edition, they were a direct branchoff of fighter. Druids have set damage amounts (1D12 for Dire Bear I belive) to make up for their lack of proficeny with good weapons (scimitars asside).
As a meele toon, you become attached to your weapons; I have a collection of bastard swords saved from Fighter days for my paladin life. To rob (becuase otherwise the paladin won't want to use the mount as much) the paladin of their weapon types is too much.
Also, 1D8 peircing seems kind of weak, even with x3 crit (that crit. threat would you be suggesting?)

3)I was thinking a penalty to reflex as well. Now, should this be accompanied or replaced by a -2 penalty to DEX. just throwing that out there for some feedback.

4) Triple cooldown is WAY too much. Palading rely on their healing spells in combat and in some cases heal others when things get hairy (I saw someone say ' a paladin is like a fire extinguisher: You don't know why it's there until you need it'). Now, the reason druids got 2.5X cooldown represents their difficulty of casting spells while being a wild beast. Paladins, on the other hand, would simply be on a horse. They are still themselves, just they now have a cool ride.
Perhaps a X1.5 on non-heal spells would work. Or, no colldown penalties at all. I'm not sure what whould be appropriat here. This would need further disscusion.

5) Should the riding powers be spells?
Paladins do not get echos of power, and do not have that large a mana pool.Reason it did work for Druids is that they have both these things. They might want to save their mana for healing/buffs rather than use it for some super-powered attacks.

6) disscussion needs to be had on what lv pallies whould get this horse, and the level for the spells(or feats) whould be based off that. I'm thinking get the steed at 8, 10, or 12.

and finally:
7) For the charge attack, what you're suggesting would incorporate same mechanic for leap of faith/snow slide/jet propulsion correct? Well, if you`ll notice, it`s only P2P content that has this feature on them. Can't give a free to play class a feature like that willy-nilly.

So, that's my 2-cents on those points. I agree on the rest unless i've forgotten anything.
Now, it's time for bed.

[Worldcrafter]

- Movement Speed -
I left this undecided simply because I wanted to hear what others would like to see or think would be a better fit. I could easily see whatever bonus is highest taking place.

- Lance vs Personal Gear -
I am all for having the player use their own weapons while in mount form, and would prefer it myself. However, the lance suggestion (an evolution from your own spear suggestion, and just as easily interchanged) was for simplicity's sake; it would be less coding to give the "form" a set damage type. I wanted to initially go with 1d10, but the druid's forms start off at 1d6 for wolf and 1d8 for bear. It could be argued that the animal forms also have multiple types of damage vs. a lance's set piercing (not the best for DR bypassing), but I thought the ability to gain 2 handed damage and still get shield benefits would offset that. The 1d8 was a tentative first shot, testing the waters as if it were. By no means did I intend to leave it there, which I will elaborate on when replying to point 6.

- Dex and Ref penalties -
The reflex penalty was completely your inspiration; I simply took it and ran with it. I'm not certain if both a reflex and a dex penalty should be applied together, as it is a little redundant. On the other hand, if people felt it would be a good combination for an appropriate drawback, I'd suggest dropping the reflex penalty to -2, to offset the further reduction due to dex penalty.

- Triple Cooldown -
Initially, Druids had x3, and it was brought down to x2.5 because they're a caster heavy class. While I am willing to contemplate having it lowered, I think a x3 could be one of the great equalizers that makes a mount an option, and not a "must have." Does the paladin go for additional damage with potential special effects, risking slower healing in combat, or do they go on foot and maintain a higher healing rate?

I am reluctant, but not completely opposed to, lowering or removing the cool down. I do not feel the other penalties are enough to justify offering the bonuses and potential abilities. But that's what this thread is for, discussion, suggestions, and polish. If more people felt this was inappropriate, then reduce or scrap as seen fit.

- Riding Powers - Spells or not? -
I feel this would satisfy two needs. First, there are people who feel paladins need more viable spells. This would provide that, albeit limited to the mounted form. Second, making the mounted abilities form-oriented spells works off of existing mechanics, making it easier to incorporate at this point in time.

To offer longevity to the paladin's limited SP bar, form-only spells have a much lower spell cost compared to others. Another suggestion is that some could have moderate cooldown periods, like 10-15 seconds, so they can still be used frequently in combat, but offer some reprieve so they don't burn SP so fast.

However, I am always open to ideas; what would you suggest would be good alternatives for the riding powers?

- When do Paladins get their Mount? -
Ah, the sixth point. I was thinking we follow 3.5 for this idea. Paladins get their mount at level 5, and get some upgrades at level 8, 11, and 15 - the levels the mount itself would be upgraded at for PnP. What would be upgraded?

If we followed with the idea of the character wielding a lance, I was thinking a dice upgrade at the various levels - 1d10, 1d12, ??? (2d8? Not certain.)

This also worked with an alternate idea for the mount speed; starting it off lower (10% or 15% boost), and having it increase 5% each time (end result of 25% or 30%, pending on what the initial bonus was)

Of course, as always, I am up for alternate ideas and alterations to the ones I propose.

- Heroic Charge -
Your assumption is partially correct; my original post states the inspiration, which one might argue is a more exclusive ability - Flyby Attack, from Draconic Incarnation. This could function very well to simulate a mounted charge, plowing through some enemies to deal damage. I wouldn't count out the fact that paladin is a free class to exclude this ability, because we're already venturing into the territory of paid for classes - using Druid's wildshape as a basis, true? And again, I point out that when U14 rolled around, the free class paladins had most of their immunities intact, while the paid for warforged race had more of a change.

[LeoLionxxx]

I'll submit, an extended cooldown would be approptiat and a small one should be implemented. 1.5X or 2X at Max i'd suggest.


The riding powers would work well as spells, especially since they do already have the mechanich for them all set. I agree, a low SP cost and lengthy cooldown is ideal too.

But on another thought: the mounted attacks could instead be tied to the paladin't 'smite evil' ability. These powers seem like they would be just as prestigious as this, and far as I know, smites are only used for that one type off attack (I could be wrong) They also recharge at a rate of 1/1(or 2, again I forget) per min, so they wouldn't be spammed as much, and be able to be used even when the paladin is out of SP.

[Worldcrafter]

I can agree with a reduction from the x3; let us go with the proposed middle ground of x2 cool down.

Nice thought on using the mounted combats as smites instead of spells! I had not contemplated that before. It seems a good alternative to spells, and the regeneration does offer more uses in a prolonged dungeon. I've done some reflection and some rough number crunching though, and with the possible exception of Heroic Charge's ability to strike multiple enemies, the smite is better then the damage output of my proposed abilities.

Assuming that DDO went with the form damage and increased at the levels I suggested, at level 15, Glorious Strike's +4[W] deals 10d8 damage, or an extra 8d8. Average hit, that's somewhere in the ballpark of 32-36 additional damage, with a maximum of +64 (rolling all 8's). A smite at that level gains solid 52 damage, and not to mention a good hit boost. When it comes to crit, the random damage makes an even greater discrepancy - and that's not including Exalted Smite and its bonuses to threat range and damage.

At level 20, Smite is just a powerhouse that outshines Glorious Strike completely. Smite gets up to +67 damage non-crit, beating the maximum Glorious Strike could produce.