Another Paladin Mount Thread

[sephiroth1084]

The beauty of this suggestion is it builds on the Druid shapeshifting work that the devs spent YEARS working out, and using it for more than one class. They spent all that manpower working, and it's used on a single class.

That effort should probably be devoted to giving us Shifters, a core race of the Eberron campaign setting (and probably the only race we're likely to see with a +2 to Wis), or to implement the Shapechange spell (or other spells from the Polymorph subschool).

Mounts are not going to do much to improve the paladin class. There are lots of areas where they won't be useful at all, they will probably be quite buggy, and really don't improve upon most of the areas for which paladins need help--DPS, solutions to their lack of feats (mounted combat typically comes with a series of feats needed to make it worthwhile, which paladins can't afford), tight AP, and being able to use their existing class features effectively (namely: healing, which kind of requires a 1 or 2 feat investment that they really can't afford).

[Worldcrafter]

That effort should probably be devoted to giving us Shifters, a core race of the Eberron campaign setting (and probably the only race we're likely to see with a +2 to Wis), or to implement the Shapechange spell (or other spells from the Polymorph subschool).

Actually, the barbarian rage mechanic is better suited to a shifter's "shifting" ability, because it acts in a similar fashion - they get some bonuses and abilities depending on what traits they picked, get a bonus to Str, Con, or Dex (again, based on the trait they picked), and in PnP lasts a like amount of time (3+ con modifier). It's then just a matter of adding a graphic to the model based on the "shifting" ability selected, such as horns for Gorebrute or some claws for Razorclaw. Many of the "shifts" do not have a cosmetic difference that could be easily added or be very notable - Beasthide, Cliffwalk, Dreamsight, Longstride,, Truedive and Wildhunt. Gorebrute, Longtooth, Razorclaw and Swiftwing would be the most notable ones, butSwiftwing probably won't make it into the game unless it's just a featherfall toggle, and Longtooth and Razorclaw might not be significant enough to add graphically. So, I disagree that the druid's wildshape ability is appropriate.

As far as Shapechange goes, I'm not opposed to the mechanic going to that. However, I hardly hear a cry that wizards and sorcerers are lacking compared to other classes due to missing out on Shapechange. Paladins have suffered for their lack of a mount, both from not having it and not really having something to replace it. And rather then add a spell that will allow an arcane to go melee things or get more SLA's, I think it would be more fair to work on a possible method to boost a paladin's capabilities and restore a missing iconic ability before adding a new spell - but that's simply my personal opinion on the matter.

Mounts are not going to do much to improve the paladin class.

And why not? This is what the thread about, being able to make mounts viable so they do improve the paladin class.

There are lots of areas where they won't be useful at all,

Which we have covered already and provided workarounds. Areas where the horse doesn't fit, paladins get their own sparkly temporary interaction body, like how druids get when climbing ladders or interacting with things.

they will probably be quite buggy,

Moot point; this can be said for any idea. They already have a foundation mechanic (druid wildshape) to help reduce the bugs. And lately, DDO's been kicking up their work on hammering out bugs and have put Enhancement Pass on hold to iron out more bugs. I trust that if they chose to incorporate this idea, they'd work to minimize the bugs.

and really don't improve upon most of the areas for which paladins need help--DPS,

Actually, I think that giving the "mounted combat" form some damage and hit buffs, it adds to DPS. With the addition of form spells, it both gives paladins more spell options, and provides more spikes in damage, raising overall DPS. Such as with the suggested spells of Divine Lance (+2[W] and a "good damage bleed" for 8 seconds), Holy Spear (+1d6 light damage per melee for 30 seconds), Glorious Strike (+4[w] and 6 second stun, will negates), Trample (personal AoE dealing 3 +1d3 bludgeoning per level, ref for half), and Heroic Charge (+3[W] to all enemies in charge path).

solutions to their lack of feats (mounted combat typically comes with a series of feats needed to make it worthwhile, which paladins can't afford),

If we use the druid's wildshape mechanics as a basis, it negates any need for mounted feats, thereby allowing paladins to use their mount without having to sacrifice feats. Furthermore, it is suggested that any "mounted combat" abilities become form-specific spells.

tight AP

The idea does not help with dedicated AP spending. However, as the suggestion is now, it doesn't rely on AP either, making the argument moot at this point in time.

and being able to use their existing class features effectively (namely: healing, which kind of requires a 1 or 2 feat investment that they really can't afford).

With the exception of increased spell cooldown, the presented idea won't stop a paladin from being able to focus in healing. And please remember, we want the mount to be an option, not a "must need!" ability. A paladin will be able to heal more frequently on foot, but they lose out DPS while not mounted.

[sephiroth1084]

I think the temporary form for climbing ladders and such is rather stupid. I can kind of live with it for druids, since, ultimately, they're the ones climbing up, though I'd prefer to have animations of wolves and bears climbing. For mounts, though...no way you're seeing a horse do that. Sure, verisimilitude isn't that important in DDO, but going out of your way to breach it doesn't look attractive, even if it is helpful.

The problem with the mount is the same problem we have now without the mount--there's nothing to replace it. You say it wouldn't be mandatory, but if it represents enough DPS to close the gap between paladins and the real DPS classes, then it WILL be mandatory, because we don't have anything to use when not using the mount. You can hand wave that away and say that something else will or should be developed for those who don't care for the mount, but that hasn't happened in 6 years, and I don't expect it to suddenly occur because there is a recognized need for a balance against having a mount.

I think I'd be in favor of the paladin's third PrE becoming Cavalier, and getting a mount that way (the devs have expressed a desire to fold Hunter of the Dead and Knight of the Chalice into a single PrE), but then you're losing other stuff. If you think paladins would get a mount and not have to spend AP or feats on it at all, I think you're kidding yourself, because that isn't going to happen.

The Pathfinder RPG did a fair job of providing alternative options: you can form a bond with your weapon and can enchant it a few times a day with a variety of properties you can select from a list. Not spectacular for DDO, but useful. The class archetypes can trade in that ability for a defensive version or for other powers.

[Worldcrafter]

I cannot argue with an opinion, because it is just that - an opinion. However, the current method on druid interactions is set to temporarily return to the base model. With the fact the paladin's steed is a "magical horse" that gets pulled and sent back to its own plane, the transition makes more sense for paladins - they temporarily send their horse back to its celestial plane until the paladin finishes what they were doing, and calls it back. This is even slipping in D&D 3.5 canon for those folks who like DDO keeping in touch with the game.

Forgive me, but I can never understand how the reasoning that offering a paladin an iconic power AND possibly giving them some use from it is a bad thing. Do you also feel the same way about a barbarian's rage? It, too, should be removed, because they have no other options? Perhaps it should be reserved for a Prestige instead? While my ultimate goal is to provide mount as an option and not a necessity, what would be so terrible if the mount did become a necessity for more damage output?

Furthermore, a lot of people seem so eager to just throw their hands up, cry an idea is impossible, and prefer to dwell in silent acceptance rather then offer ideas on how to make something work. After all, paladins have not had a mount in six years, why hope? Because things change. Druids haven't been around for six years - but they're here now. Half-orcs and half-elves weren't part of the original release. Gnomes, shifters, and other Eberron races are not here - should we simply throw our hands up and claim it impossible to bring them in, just because they have not showed up for six years?

Or should we raise our voices with desire and ideas? Shouldn't we, the players, offer our suggestions and advice to the people who work at DDO? Our ideas may simply be discarded. Our words may simply become some backlog thread on some page in the upper hundreds, never to be revisited save by a random curious member. Or, the ideas we lay out may be the spark needed to set ablaze revolution, creativity, and taking a step to making the impossible, possible. It may be these ideas presented here, or they may just be that first push that set the gears in motion for something better - but if we remain silent, how will we ever know?

So tell me, as I have asked all the others who disagree with me, who just lapsed back into silence after my inquiry, what is it that you feel could help improve the shot at getting the mount idea accepted? What boons do you feel are necessary that will turn peoples' heads and go, "you know, that mount is a good idea!" What penalties are needed to balance it, to keep the mount from being "that must have?"

Please, I beg of you and all who say the mount is impossible, enlighten me. This is not sarcasm, but an earnest request from my fellow players. I have not played a paladin to a point where I have experienced high level play. My highest has been level 5, then deleted and remade when vet II came out. So I beseech those with more experience, and those who doubt this idea could be beneficial, what do you think would a mount need to become viable? With the current system and mechanics, tell me what is best suited to represent one of the core powers of the paladin class. Not if it should, or should not, or couldn't - but how.

As far as AP goes, perhaps that could be the point that makes a mount become an option. You claim there is tight AP? Then you have a build choice. Build for healing, or build for DPS - much the same choice fighters and barbarians face now.

[sephiroth1084]

For me, mechanics and balance aside, I'd only ever wants mounts for paladins in DDO if:

1. Mounts became a regular feature. That is, anyone could conceivably get a mount, but paladins could get special, combat-capable mounts.
2. The mechanics for mounts were fluid, such that you could mount and dismount without the animation looking glitchy, jerky, or otherwise ridiculous.
3. It could be done in such a way that it feels right, which I can't imagine it ever will...a mounted character would be of considerable size...the horse would be larger than a druid in bear form, and then we'd have the character model atop it. I don't see us getting character models that large, or, even if we did, those models would be cumbersome--they'd block everyone else's view, probably block your view, would look awkward going through doorways, running down tunnels, and leaping onto narrow posts or ledges.
4. Combat animations while mounted looked good. Swinging a quarterstaff around like a sword while on horseback would look much more ridiculous than the spinning slices we make with rapiers, or the poking attacks we make with clubs. Not to mention, I doubt we'd get spears or lances anyway. So it would then be an extension of your mounted character model. You equip a sword, but you're seeing a lance? Would they cover shields while mounted?

We don't have a large world like WoW or Star Wars does to justify using a mount for travel, and most of our adventures are set in areas not very conducive to using a mount. Turning paladins into a pet class would suck, both because pet AI blows, and because that isn't the flavor of paladins in D&D--even with the mount, there is very little concerning training, tricks and such.


I just don't believe we would get good-looking, dynamic mounted combat here. Heck, the druid is pretty lackluster in as many ways, with awkward-looking forms (at times), fairly limited options, and counter-intuitive design. Nothing about the druid makes me confident that mounts would turn out very well.

[Worldcrafter]

By saying "mechanics and balancing aside," you completely disregard everything I ask of you, other to say that as long as the horses "looked pretty," you'd like it. I am frustrated with this answer, as I'm hoping to delve more into the inner workings behind the idea, but will do the best I can to answer and discuss your points.

1. Everyone Should Get Mounts
I disagree with this idea at this point in time for two reasons - it is an unique class feature, and it's a special horse to begin with, beyond just "fighting." Claiming that everyone should have a mount if the paladin gets one is similar to claiming others should get barbarian/monk speed boost, rage, cleric turning, rogue sneak attack, or spells.

The reason a paladin's mount is feasible in the adverse conditions of narrow corridors, places with climbing and jumping, and everything people say a horse wouldn't be able to go is because the horse is special and can go there. Again, sending it to its home plane when it doesn't fit somewhere, recalling it when you get to a space it can fit. This is one of the reasons why I feel that paladins should be allowed to have their mount in DDO at this time.

2. Mounting and Dismounting
This is not an issue that an idea on a forum can address. This is something that the art department and animators would have to work on. Furthermore, there would have to be coding in order to spawn a mount, fusing it with the character when mounted, and determining how it functions when you dismount - is it a viable target that can be attacked, does it just stand there, can you "call" it like a hireling?

This is one of the reasons that I believe using the druid's wildshape as a viable option. By using it, we bypass additional coding for mounting, dismounting, spawning and handling the mount. You activate the ability, there's a light blur, you become knight on horseback.

3. Model Size
Just because there hasn't been a character model that large doesn't mean it is impossible. Additionally, we already have access to summoning earth elementals and hezrou that break the normal boundaries of size and dimension, yet we pay no heed to them blundering through doorways too small for them.

As for obstructing views, that's bound to happen; that happens with any kind of character model though, especially if you have a summon following you. How "ridiculous" a model looks jumping on narrow surfaces will look ridiculous any way you slice it, be it someone on horseback or a dire bear. Anything else is art department, animation, and programming, which is again something I think is insufficient for a form post answer.

4. Combat Animations
If mounts were available for everyone, I would wholeheartedly agree that combat animations were a must. Even if it was just paladins alone, it would be awesome if people could have their weapons and have fluid animations and such. But that would require more code and work then the existing mechanics.

The druid's wildshape is a simple adaptation using existing mechanics to make it easier and more likely for the DDO team to incorporate. Instead of looking like a wolf with wolf stats, you look like a mounted knight with mounted knight stats. For simplicity's sake, a lance or spear was suggested for the knight wield, as well as a shield. While in "mounted" form, the paladin's melee damage starts off at 1d8 piercing, x3 crit, considered two hands for damage bonuses, but still allows you a shield bonus. And then increasing in base damage at levels the mount would get its bonuses in PnP.

Is it ideal? No. I would love customizations for horses, picking colors, putting on armor, having the paladins using whatever weapons they have available and looking cool while swinging. But, given the current tools and mechanics that exist in the game, I feel this is the best option to allow the paladin's mount to come into the game at this point in time.

5. Not A Large World
I agree that DDO is much more enclosed and not mount-friendly. I also feel that the paladin's mount is the exception, because, as stated numerous times already, it is a "magical horse." An ATH - All-Terrain Horse. Except swimming.

6. Pet Class
This is not the focus of the thread. It was suggested by someone else, I entertained I had not thought of paladins as a pet class and it might be interesting, but if it had to one or the other, I'd prefer to see it as a mount. Since then, the only discussion of having a paladin as a "pet class" has been people disagreeing with the idea, and I or LeoLionxxx having to point out that we're not discussing that anymore.

7. Horses Lookin' Pretty
If you want to forgo extra DPS simply because you don't like the way the horses look or the way the combat animations are, more power to you. I don't see how an aesthetic opinion makes any game mechanics or the idea itself bad, however.

[Tom_Hunters]

I think ppl ask for a mount for pally for several reasons:

1. utility (adding speed/dps)
2. lore
3. appearance

putting 2 & 3 aside for the moment
1. can actually quite easily done with the game mechanics now
just like the squirrelly summon, you summon a mount, then you got bonus to move, to hit, dmg, trip DC, etc
you can also ask it to scout or move around, and it can get hurt too
though it may look a bit weird that you can't really mount your mount, but that satisfy the practical benefits of having a mount

[Doxmaster]

Quick and dirty solution:

Add a move-speed boost, small bonus to damage and small bonus to AC. Upon activaitng the ability, the image of a horse is momentarily imposed over the paladin.

Bam, done.

[LeoLionxxx]

I think ppl ask for a mount for pally for several reasons:

*snip*
just like the squirrelly summon, you summon a mount, then you got bonus to move, to hit, dmg, trip DC, etc
you can also ask it to scout or move around, and it can get hurt too
though it may look a bit weird that you can't really mount your mount, but that satisfy the practical benefits of having a mount

No. The whole idea has been to use the druid shape-shifting mechanic to make the paladin ride the horse.
A little teensy frog is one thing to have following you, but a big hulking horse? No, the way to go with this is the paladin is ON the horse.