Loot Dynamics

[Clayness]

I have had some situations in this game where loot has been discussed in a PUG, when people have argued heavily over a piece of equipment that dropped. I have also noticed the huge differences in loot distribution between pure PUGs, running with friends and running with guild, and I wanted to share some thoughts on the subject, mainly because I have been on both sides of the fence.

To begin with I have two examples.

First Example - I join a PUG Demon Queen. We complete the raid on epic without any difficulties and get to the part where we distribute the loot. We find a demon scale armor in the chest, and it is put up for roll. I am on my FvS and decide to roll since I have shard, seal and scroll to epic it. A rogue also rolls on it, but admits that he doesn't have anything to epic it with. The rogue wins the roll, but the other people in the raid ask him if he is willing to pass it to me, since it wouldn't really do anything for him. There is a bit of discussion about it, the rogue admits that he isn't even farming any of the quests in sands, so he is very unlikely to get the seal. Eventually he ends up passing it to me.

Second Example - I join a PUG Vault of Night. We complete the raid on epic without any difficulties and once again get to the loot part, the juicy bit. A barbarian gets a +4 dex tome in the chest, and my bard gets a base Sword of Shadow. The barbarian decides to pull the +4 dex tome, and I decide to pull the Sword of Shadow. I don't have any intention of making it epic, but I do love to use Sword of Shadow for leveling during my many TRs. The barbarian becomes extremely upset and starts to send me private messages, messages where he argues that greensteel is better, that I am greedy, that I am a noob because I have no intention of making it epic and that I should learn the game before taking loot such as the Sword of Shadows.

I have thought about it quite often, and I do find loot dynamics kind of interesting. When you are running with a PUG, there is essentially no reason at all to pass loot to another member of your party if you have even the slightest use for it, the odds of ever running with that person again are slim, so you would be strengthening a character that you might never see again. You will however always run with your own character, naturally, so even the slightest increase in your potency will affect your future raids and quests.

The situation is very different when you run with friends, and even more different when you run with guildies. You will run with these people again, especially your guildies. If an item benefits them more than you, it might benefit you as well since you will run with them again. This is especially true in a guild such as mine where we are 8-12 people that do raids together on a regular basis, we care quite a bit about strengthening the raid and guild as a whole, and less about our individual characters. We pool epic scrolls to increase our chances of crafting the epic items we need, we pool our red dragonscales so we can have a maximum number of red dragonscale armors in guild.

But what about a pure PUG? Even though I was a bit upset with the rogue in the first example, I could actually understand his sentiment. He might never, ever see me again, and the piece of loot that he passed to me would therefore not benefit him the slightest. In fact, this Demon Queen raid took place six months ago, and I have in fact not grouped with him since, not because I don't want to, I actually think he ended up being fair in passing the item to me, but because it is a big server and we simply haven't run into eachother.

That barbarian is another matter, I have avoided grouping with him since that raid, I think he was actually greedier than me, yet he was the one calling me names and harassing me afterwards. He pulled a +4 dex tome in a raid that had two-weapon fighting melees and an arcane archer, on his two-handed fighting barbarian. So that tome would give him a whopping +1 bonus to his reflex save, which is most likely so low that it won't matter it any serious content. But again, I do in many ways agree with his decision to take it. +4 tomes are extremely rare, and you never know if you might end up TRing into a class that can take advantage of such a tome. If I pulled a +4 tome of any kind on any toon in a pure PUG, I might also consider taking it even if it wouldn't be useful to me right away.

I am actually not upset about the barbarian taking the tome. It was greedy, but my experience when running in a PUG is that you will very rarely get a chance to get any decent item unless you get it yourself in the chest. Valuable items are put up for roll on in extremely rare cases, and when they are put up for roll they are typically rolled on by everyone. Last time I saw a Sword of Shadow shard up for roll, it was rolled on by all 11 people in the raid other than the guy putting it up for roll.

The whole sentiment in PUG raids seem to be: Grab what you can and make a run for it!

What are your experiences in PUG raids? Are your guild raids any different? What about when you run with friends? And what do you think of my two examples? Did anyone do the wrong or right thing in these circumstances?

[Clayness]

I know this might get some of the "My loot is my loot" people out of the bushes. This whole sentiment with "My loot is my loot" is something I agree with, but only partially. I do think you are entitled to pull anything you get, even if you don't really need it right away. Passing something to a guildie might be understandable as well, I might not entirely condone it, but it would be their right.

My biggest issue is people who take this "My loot is my loot" sentiment to the extreme, and try to auction loot they get in a raid. It actually benefits me, I have been on the server for a long time and I have accumulated quite a bit of wealth and good items, so I would quite easily be able to bargain for an item if I needed it. But even though it benefits me more than most, I don't agree with the sentiment to auction items in a raid. It hurts new players more than anything, because these are the players that will typically not have anything worthwhile to bargain with, so if everyone stuck to this method of distributing loot, it will just widen the gap between new and old players and give new players less reason to join raids.

So, yes. Your loot IS your loot. But my raid is also MY raid, so I can decide to not invite you again, or join a raid in which you participate, that is my right if you take the technical approach.

Another issue I have noticed is that people judge other players by their performance, and this influences their generosity. Two healers join a shroud, one of them disconnects in part two and the other healer is stuck healing the remainder of the raid. The raid still goes smoothly and people pass things to the healer, primarily SP potions, but even shards are offered to the healer without rolls, since he expressed a need for shards when the raid started.

A monk joins an epic VON. And this is an actual example I have from an epic VON I did recently. Immediately upon joining the monk says that he needs a base SOS because he intends to TR. Unfortunately he performs extremely poorly, his character is poorly built and he appears to have no self-sufficiency at all, he manages to die three times in the pre-raid on epic normal, he constantly spams the party chat for heals, he spams for help, he spams for buffs. Then we get to the actual raid and he kills his djinn early two times despite people telling him to leave it alone, he dies on ice base, he then dies again when we fight Velah. At this point his already low hitpoints are reduced even further by his death penalties, so he decides to not even DPS Velah. Instead he hides behind a pillar and sticks to using his ranged abilities from the Grandmaster of Flowers destiny. People tell him to melee Velah but he ignores it. When the eggs spawn he continues to hide behind the pillar. The raid ends and indeed a Sword of Shadow drops, but not in his name. He immediately asks that the sword be passed to him since he asked for it. People naturally ignore him, and the person with the Sword of Shadow asks for people to roll. I notice that pretty much everyone rolls on the sword, and I admittedly roll on it as well, even though I have absolutely no intention of using it (I mainly rolled because the monk had the highest roll). I talk to other people after the raid, many of them even had a Sword of Shadow already but just didn't want the monk to get it.

[LordMond63]

It really does all boil down to "your loot is your loot".

DDO lacks a mechanic by which to do anything else, really. The quest or raid leader can stipulate loot rules before starting the adventure, but you pretty much have to rely on the honesty of your groupmates to make that work. In your second post in the instance of the Monk, I'd say you have a great example of the group enforcing some tough love on a player that had gone out of his way not to pull his own weight and I don't think you'd find a jury anywhere to convict you on your behavior. If anything, we need to see more of that.

One problem is that anyone can justify looting anything because they can claim that, whatever class they are now, while that class might not benefit from the Prize Thingy, they are planning to TR into a class which can or that they have an Alt that can use it and so they are just as entitled to loot or roll on the loot as anyone else . You can stipulate that the players can roll for loot only for the actual participating character in the adventure, but, again, you're counting on the honesty of your fellow players. This can be avoided by not Pugging, but how realistic is it to go through multiple lives or cap multiple characters totally without Pugging?

I will say that guild and alliance raids have far less of this sort of drama than do PuGs. In fact, we often pass items which we could use to others because we know they could use it more, with the justification being to strengthen one is to strengthen all. We've managed to forge alliances with guilds who think similarly to us and the result is the best gameplay I've yet experienced. Still, I PuG a fair amount because I might be working on something no one else is (we aren't the most numerous guild around) and so grouping with strangers is the price I pay to achieve my goal. Most go well; a few do not. I've lost more loot rolls on stuff I could use than I care to admit (that one Elyd Edge shard that dropped for a group I was in and I lost the roll by, like, 5, STILL haunts me!), but I still log in to play most every day and enjoy my time in game. One day, another one will drop. Probably, anyway....

[redspecter23]

I do believe in the golden rule "your loot is your loot". In the many loot threads that come up, it typically boils down to that in the end. That being said, it seems like it's story time.

I was in a hound run a while back. This is pre U14. Long story short, we get to the looting part and a pair of wraps ends up going up for roll. One monk says he's already got it so I go ahead and roll on my monk. No rolls for a short time, then the pure cleric rolls and wins. The person who had the wraps drop in their name asks if they're sure they want the wraps. They say yes. They're TR'ing to monk as soon as they cap.

Now I'm not upset about this at all. I would have loved the wraps, but I respect the loot rules in this case. The person with the wraps did apparently want them to go to an actual monk but the cleric was going to use them so I had no issue with it. I still have that clerics name and check every once in a while. No monk TR yet. Still a cleric over 6 months later.

Now with the change to nightmare and the fact that even a pure cleric could use these wraps in grandmaster destiny, I wouldn't even blink if a cleric rolled on them today, but at the time it was a bit more odd.

[susiedupfer]

Explaining loot rules on the front end is the only solution. I have been in many raids where someone got bent out of shape about some item going to someone else. In my raids, the rules are explained as soon as the 12th person joins. If we are short-manning, they are explained when we step in.

Our rules are simple:
Your loot is your loot. Do with it what you like. Loot it, pass it without discussion, whatever.

If you do put it up for roll, rolls go to current class/toon first. If you don't need it for this toon, this life, and someone else can use it now, don't roll on it until it is opened up for that.

[SSFWEl]

I almost exclusively PuG on Orien (my highish lvl 78 guild is too small for us to run togethr) and the loot etiquette is, imho, excellent.

Dunno who the barb was, but it's rare for someone to complain.

[FestusHood]

First off, i haven't really come across any major loot drama in my playing experience yet. With that in mind, the concept that whoever pulls the loot should be able to do whatever they want with it seems pretty obvious to me. It's basically winning a lottery, and nobody would expect you to give your money away to anyone.

In your first example with the sword of shadows, you mention looting it to use in it's base form, as a twink item. Again, your loot is your loot, but i think doing this completely destroys any foundation you have for arguing what anybody else does with their loot. As far as passing items to guildies, i would of course expect this. I'm much more likely to give twenty dollars to my brother or my friend if they ask for it, than to a random person off the street.

As far as the second example with the monk and the SOS goes, my only question is this: was the monk intentionally playing badly? If he was intentionally playing badly, i can see your point. If he just wasn't as good as you are, i really can't justify "teaching him a lesson". Doesn't sound a lot different from real life bullying. You know, like " me big and strong, you little and weak" as justification for hassling or hurting people.

[MoonRunner]

I typically go by the "my loot is my loot" rules. However I hate pulling things that I wont use when they are popular items. I have even passed a monk ring from ToD to a monk which I later realized I could have used on my pally anyway. Oh well carma will come back sometime I hope.

[fco-karatekid]

...Now with the change to nightmare and the fact that even a pure cleric could use these wraps in grandmaster destiny, I wouldn't even blink if a cleric rolled on them today, but at the time it was a bit more odd...

I hadn't even THOUGHT about that till you mentioned it. I am surprised the loot swapping persists now, given this part of the dynamic. Then again, I'm on Thelanis, - you know rainbows and butterflies...

[Clayness]

First off, i haven't really come across any major loot drama in my playing experience yet. With that in mind, the concept that whoever pulls the loot should be able to do whatever they want with it seems pretty obvious to me. It's basically winning a lottery, and nobody would expect you to give your money away to anyone.

In your first example with the sword of shadows, you mention looting it to use in it's base form, as a twink item. Again, your loot is your loot, but i think doing this completely destroys any foundation you have for arguing what anybody else does with their loot. As far as passing items to guildies, i would of course expect this. I'm much more likely to give twenty dollars to my brother or my friend if they ask for it, than to a random person off the street.

As far as the second example with the monk and the SOS goes, my only question is this: was the monk intentionally playing badly? If he was intentionally playing badly, i can see your point. If he just wasn't as good as you are, i really can't justify "teaching him a lesson". Doesn't sound a lot different from real life bullying. You know, like " me big and strong, you little and weak" as justification for hassling or hurting people.

About the SOS, I actually never said anything to the barbarian about him keeping his +4 dex tome, I might have done the same thing, it happens that I TR into something completely different and go from THF to TWF or Ranged, or vice-versa. My current TWF rogue was once a THF warforged fighter, so it happens and I accept it. I do though think it is silly to take something that is only good for TWF/Ranged, and then get upset when someone else won't just pass you something that is for THF. Either the barbarian should have accepted that you are free to loot what you get, or he should have made it a point that things should go to the ones who benefit the most from them, given up his dex tome and asked if he could roll on the SOS since it would benefit him more.

About the monk, he was a new player, true. But as a new player you should pay attention to listening to more experienced players, in my meager opinion. I personally don't mind new players at all, if I get together a reasonably solid raid group I don't mind taking some people along who might not be experienced/geared/built well enough to fulfill their role as well as the rest of the raid, but I do expect them to at least listen if you ask them things in a polite way (which we did, at least in the beginning). He did though pretty much ignore everything he was asked, his manners were horrible as he kept asking/begging for things and when the sword dropped he didn't even roll at first, he just said "Pass plz" and expected it to be given to him. I think the thing that upset people was his attitude more than his actual skill.

[Satiera]

So, yes. Your loot IS your loot. But my raid is also MY raid, so I can decide to not invite you again, or join a raid in which you participate, that is my right if you take the technical approach.

Well said

And since we're sharing stories, here's mine:
Ran epic VON in a pug group on my clonk and pulled a SOS (base item). Obviously I didn't need it and only other person I knew in the group was on a monk so I put it up for roll. Wiz ended up with the highest roll. Not a melee splash caster build, just a pure spell-casting wiz. So now I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to offload this SOS without creating drama or hard feelings, but since I didn't state any conditions before the roll I didn't think it was fair to impose conditions after the rolling was done. I passed the sword to the wiz. He said he was going to TR. We've all heard that before. Couple days later I ran past him coming out of the crafting hall and on a hunch I decided to examine him. He was a level 5 barbarian. Once in a while these stories turn out alright after all.

[karl_k0ch]

Quite a while ago, I started a thread posting my personal mindset when running/leading in pug raids: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=293804

Usually I don't explain that in every raid I lead (these are quite few nowadays anyway), but I'm happy to group with people who have a similar approach.

One of the main points which is not covered explicitly in the thread I linked, but which I'd like to adress: I'm a great friend of non-discriminating. This means, a well-geared, wealthy player with a lot of guildies in group should have the same chance for an item roll as a freshly capped newb who just ran his first raid. This is why I despise selling/auctioning raid loot, as well as proxy rolling.
Howerver, trading two bound items in the chest between two characters, is fine to me.

[ladypummel]

i find that in guild raids i feel like i wanna pass stuff cause most of my guildies have gave me plenty over the years and even if i can use the item if they can use the item i will pass. but in pugs i like to hint at what i am looking for and roll on anything usefull unless bound to toon Whatshould -Leader of for loot and glory

[RobbinB]

I know this might get some of the "My loot is my loot" people out of the bushes. This whole sentiment with "My loot is my loot" is something I agree with, but only partially. I do think you are entitled to pull anything you get, even if you don't really need it right away. Passing something to a guildie might be understandable as well, I might not entirely condone it, but it would be their right.

My biggest issue is people who take this "My loot is my loot" sentiment to the extreme, and try to auction loot they get in a raid. It actually benefits me, I have been on the server for a long time and I have accumulated quite a bit of wealth and good items, so I would quite easily be able to bargain for an item if I needed it. But even though it benefits me more than most, I don't agree with the sentiment to auction items in a raid. It hurts new players more than anything, because these are the players that will typically not have anything worthwhile to bargain with, so if everyone stuck to this method of distributing loot, it will just widen the gap between new and old players and give new players less reason to join raids.

So, yes. Your loot IS your loot. But my raid is also MY raid, so I can decide to not invite you again, or join a raid in which you participate, that is my right if you take the technical approach.

Another issue I have noticed is that people judge other players by their performance, and this influences their generosity. Two healers join a shroud, one of them disconnects in part two and the other healer is stuck healing the remainder of the raid. The raid still goes smoothly and people pass things to the healer, primarily SP potions, but even shards are offered to the healer without rolls, since he expressed a need for shards when the raid started.

A monk joins an epic VON. And this is an actual example I have from an epic VON I did recently. Immediately upon joining the monk says that he needs a base SOS because he intends to TR. Unfortunately he performs extremely poorly, his character is poorly built and he appears to have no self-sufficiency at all, he manages to die three times in the pre-raid on epic normal, he constantly spams the party chat for heals, he spams for help, he spams for buffs. Then we get to the actual raid and he kills his djinn early two times despite people telling him to leave it alone, he dies on ice base, he then dies again when we fight Velah. At this point his already low hitpoints are reduced even further by his death penalties, so he decides to not even DPS Velah. Instead he hides behind a pillar and sticks to using his ranged abilities from the Grandmaster of Flowers destiny. People tell him to melee Velah but he ignores it. When the eggs spawn he continues to hide behind the pillar. The raid ends and indeed a Sword of Shadow drops, but not in his name. He immediately asks that the sword be passed to him since he asked for it. People naturally ignore him, and the person with the Sword of Shadow asks for people to roll. I notice that pretty much everyone rolls on the sword, and I admittedly roll on it as well, even though I have absolutely no intention of using it (I mainly rolled because the monk had the highest roll). I talk to other people after the raid, many of them even had a Sword of Shadow already but just didn't want the monk to get it.

Your logic is flawed. The faster you get that monk an SoS, the better. Maybe he'll tr to a barbarian and stop giving monks a bad name.

[Enoach]

Looting is very simple, it is funny how so many attach such emotional ties to stuff that is not even theirs.

OP on your examples:

1. The Armor - I'm sorry when I read that, to me as an outsider it looks like the Raid group strong-armed the rogue in giving up something that they won fairly in a "Second Chance" roll-off. In this case I say that because it does not matter if you could get a better use out of it. It was theirs now to do as they see fit.

2. Barbarian was wrong - Item was never up for roll it was yours. If you wanted it to use, take it. If you wanted it to rot in your bank, take it. If you wanted it to carry around and link, take it... I think you get the point on "Take it". However, if you wanted to be generous put it up for roll and let others get a second chance.

3. Monk looking for SoS. It is polite to ask, wrong to demand. I'm not sure there has ever been a PuG group that has ever honored the "I called it first" loot distribution method.

Hopefully everyone knows what works best for their character(s), but we will always have people rolling on stuff they won't use or ever need, we will always have people that will just loot everything in their name, and we will always have people that will freely put unneeded/unwanted stuff up for roll. And these lines are not drawn at PuG vs Guild/Raid group levels. There is a lot of blur in there at times.

Personally, I like to see what others are getting, not so I can try to talk them out of it, but more so I can congratulate them on their loot. I only get interested when people state if it is up for roll or "who wants it?". It is their loot after all. I am thankful when I get a second chance, but I'm not going to moan or gripe if I don't win and someone else gets it. The problem many have is that it is easy to justify why you need something more than someone else, if you leave that attitude behind, DDO stays a game that you play to have fun and doesn't become the grind that so many has made it out to be.

[gerardIII]

What are your experiences in PUG raids? Are your guild raids any different? What about when you run with friends? And what do you think of my two examples? Did anyone do the wrong or right thing in these circumstances?

1 year ago, I was playing my TR wizard in PUG elite VoN, someone put SoS for roll, a monk won. He said he'd TR so he would use it. He's still lvl 14.

About 8 months ago I was doing PUG elite DQ, a wizard with "Drama" and "Queen" (not actual spelling) in his name rolled for and won a marilith chain. He's still lvl 19.

In a PUG Ehard echrono with 1 or 2 guildies present, I passed a shard to a guildie. Some guy got angry that I didn't put it up for roll.

[FestusHood]

About the SOS, I actually never said anything to the barbarian about him keeping his +4 dex tome, I might have done the same thing, it happens that I TR into something completely different and go from THF to TWF or Ranged, or vice-versa. My current TWF rogue was once a THF warforged fighter, so it happens and I accept it. I do though think it is silly to take something that is only good for TWF/Ranged, and then get upset when someone else won't just pass you something that is for THF. Either the barbarian should have accepted that you are free to loot what you get, or he should have made it a point that things should go to the ones who benefit the most from them, given up his dex tome and asked if he could roll on the SOS since it would benefit him more.

About the monk, he was a new player, true. But as a new player you should pay attention to listening to more experienced players, in my meager opinion. I personally don't mind new players at all, if I get together a reasonably solid raid group I don't mind taking some people along who might not be experienced/geared/built well enough to fulfill their role as well as the rest of the raid, but I do expect them to at least listen if you ask them things in a polite way (which we did, at least in the beginning). He did though pretty much ignore everything he was asked, his manners were horrible as he kept asking/begging for things and when the sword dropped he didn't even roll at first, he just said "Pass plz" and expected it to be given to him. I think the thing that upset people was his attitude more than his actual skill.

Just to clarify my position, i don't think you were wrong to take the SOS yourself in the first example, i would have taken it myself. I'm just saying it doesn't give you moral high ground if someone else does something similar. As far as tomes go, i would actually expect anyone to take any tome, unless they had already used one. A dex tome will add to reflex save, ac for the barbarian as much as for a ranger. That being said, the barb had no grounds to complain either.

In the second case, with the monk, if he was obnoxious, i would agree. As long as it wasn't because he just wasn't as skilled as others. Call me a sap, but since this is a game, and not heart surgery, i view effort to be as commendable as achievement, even more in fact. Nothing bothers me more than people who intentionally won't help out, if they can.

I'd like to add that i've never pulled an SOS, i don't even have the von pack. But i know it is considered the A-1 option for melees when made epic. It is the kind of thing that you could actually plan a build around. Like a torc.
Maybe you were planning to tr into a sorc, but decide to make a fighter instead just to utilize it.

1. Myself
2. My alt (if not btc)
3 my guildie/friend
4 anybody else

That's pretty much how i would consider any valuable loot i pulled in order of priority. I don't think it's acceptable for anyone to think they are entitled to someone else's loot. I may at times break from the above rules if i feel like being nice, but i sure wouldn't feel like being nice if someone demanded it.

[scottmike0]

Just to clarify my position, i don't think you were wrong to take the SOS yourself in the first example, i would have taken it myself. I'm just saying it doesn't give you moral high ground if someone else does something similar. As far as tomes go, i would actually expect anyone to take any tome, unless they had already used one. A dex tome will add to reflex save, ac for the barbarian as much as for a ranger. That being said, the barb had no grounds to complain either.

In the second case, with the monk, if he was obnoxious, i would agree. As long as it wasn't because he just wasn't as skilled as others. Call me a sap, but since this is a game, and not heart surgery, i view effort to be as commendable as achievement, even more in fact. Nothing bothers me more than people who intentionally won't help out, if they can.

I'd like to add that i've never pulled an SOS, i don't even have the von pack. But i know it is considered the A-1 option for melees when made epic. It is the kind of thing that you could actually plan a build around. Like a torc.
Maybe you were planning to tr into a sorc, but decide to make a fighter instead just to utilize it.

1. Myself
2. My alt (if not btc)
3 my guildie/friend
4 anybody else

That's pretty much how i would consider any valuable loot i pulled in order of priority. I don't think it's acceptable for anyone to think they are entitled to someone else's loot. I may at times break from the above rules if i feel like being nice, but i sure wouldn't feel like being nice if someone demanded it.

^ Remember, you are either self-less or self-fish
I rather be self-fish than self less :3
And i do love your idealistic above which is why I'm quoting you ;3

Those who can stay neutral tend to never bear neutrality,either one side or the other
*Indeed this is a false alternative, but history proves this to be worthy.
So, It goes down to this...
Are you Self-Fish
Or Self-less

Would you let someone get something free whilst you do the work

Or do it your self and congratulate your self

[trog_star]

i find it fairly simple.
if you hold yourself to the same morals you would if 11 real life people were standing around you it becomes a fairly simple process.

it's your loot.
if you want to loot it, loot it
if you want to pass it, pass it
if you want to roll it, roll it

however once I post {Item link} roll D100. it is no longer my item, I am now the administrator of a roll.
people who offer to purchase items before a decision has been disclosed to the party are annoying, but within their rights to do so.
people who offer to purchase an item once it has been offered for roll (there is some lee-way for lag and what not here) get squelched and any roll they make ignored
people who offer to sell an item don't get squelched, but they do get declined trying to join my parties

those who offer an item for roll and then rescind the offer are watched carefully.
if they pull it, then &*%$ happens.
if they pass it, then squelch happens

in all honesty Ive probably squelched 3-5 people for loot related shenanigans in the last few years on Orion

if you complete 95%+ of a quest then post an LFM "reserving" an item, then people are simply picking up free loot and should pass said item
if you post an LFM "reserving" an item and expect people to contribute to quest completion, you deserve nothing.
except perhaps people griefing you.

[Feylina]

it comes down to

if i want to pull my loot out of the chest and wear it around on my head as a hat (assuming it's not a hat) there's not a bloody thing you can or should do about it. PERIOD.

of course this does go against that economic rule that the many looking out for the many will in the end benefit more than everyone looking out for themselves.

I subscribe to both schools. i will only let certain classes roll on my loot (as they can usually use it immediately) then next lifers if no one from first life. but if someone feels they need to tell me what to do with my loot they can kiss my shiny metal waste management system and disqualify themselves from any roll for that item at all .

loot is fun

seems we were due for another loot rules thread.

VVVV insert self righteous posts past this point :P