DDO > Neverwinter

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Finally there is this, no reason to think DDO will even be alive at launch of NWO. NOTHING keeps WOTC from shutting us down a month before NWO launches.

Ok, I was with ya until this comment. We Irish have a saying... that's "malarkey."

Putting it another way, WoTC sat down with Cryptic and Turbine in a very public setting and swore allegiance to both game developers. It's in their best interests to keep both games afloat, and I'll tell you, DDO is not going anywhere. They are both niche games and as my guild and others will prove, there is room for both f2p games, even in the same guild.

After Turbine's Asherons Call black eye, many of us that are still playing DDO said Turbine's days were numbered, or that they weren't the right company to take on the responsibility. Turbine didnt take the world by storm with DDO, but they made one hell of a great game thats entertained us for many years. That's just fact. DDO might be in bug hell right now, and paying for it with an obvious drop in subs, but Turbine will just reinvent itself again, and be just fine. As ****ed as I've been with DDO this passed year with the crappy QA, DDO is going NO WHERE. Simple as that.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

DDO became a joke among the MMO community for its lack of social gaming.

More malarkey. They became a joke in the PnP crowd for launching with so few quests and mainly being a combat only D&D experience. The social aspect of this game is many folks reason for not leaving or returning to play again with guildies/friends. The best VoIP of its time, is better than most games today, and still probably going to be better than Neverwinter's VoIP.

[Missing_Minds]

The best VoIP of its time, is better than most games today, and still probably going to be better than Neverwinter's VoIP.

Quite honestly, the VoIP here/lotro is **** compared to Everquest. Little hint, invidividual volume settings.

Also, is crypitc going to use the same VoIP setup as they have in CO? Aka, if you aren't VIP, your talking gets interrupted by advertisements.

I expect they'll have the same chat system setup so you can chat with anyone logged into STO or CO at the same time you are in NWO. really clogged up the UI in CO though. I hope they improved that.

[Jay203]

you know, we might as well start a guild on there named "We are from DDO" and just blow through the contents

[Musouka]

Ok, I was with ya until this comment. We Irish have a saying... that's "malarkey."

Putting it another way, WoTC sat down with Cryptic and Turbine in a very public setting and swore allegiance to both game developers. It's in their best interests to keep both games afloat, and I'll tell you, DDO is not going anywhere. They are both niche games and as my guild and others will prove, there is room for both f2p games, even in the same guild.

After Turbine's Asherons Call black eye, many of us that are still playing DDO said Turbine's days were numbered, or that they weren't the right company to take on the responsibility. Turbine didnt take the world by storm with DDO, but they made one hell of a great game thats entertained us for many years. That's just fact. DDO might be in bug hell right now, and paying for it with an obvious drop in subs, but Turbine will just reinvent itself again, and be just fine. As ****ed as I've been with DDO this passed year with the crappy QA, DDO is going NO WHERE. Simple as that.

I do agree with you on most things. However, from an active guild of about 30 or so players, only about 8 regularly play anymore. A big turn off for most was over the past year. They streamlined levelling. They allow the purchase of TP within the game with their TP codes. There used to be a huge stance against selling stuff from the DDO store in-game. The power creep introduced new items and crafting to be able to tackle the content from 1-20 much easier. Sure, I can create my own challenge, but I can't do it in a pug, and creating my own challenge really limits the social aspect of the game. There is no fear of failing certain raids on elite anymore, like VoD, ToD, HoX. They practically removed the timer from raids by selling a bypass. So 20 completions on normal = 1-2 days. Epic Destinies were huge on the power creep. Even the newer content isn't that hard. Sure you can do EE, but then like I wrote before, it drastically limits the social aspect.

You are completely right, DDO is going nowhere. Their last gasp was MotU, which just brought a whole swath of issues. They aren't exactly that quick with putting out updates, and when they do they generally break so many things that it seems to be a running joke to guess which major feature will be broken with the next update. I certainly hope you're right when you say Turbine will reinvent itself, because the path it is going down now doesn't seem to hint that. They reinvented themselves with MotU, which brought a lot of fun in the game, but it didn't bring a lot of life to the game. The advent of more f2p or even b2p games over the last year is attracting the casual players away from DDO.

I remember when DDO went f2p, and it was one of the only f2p games worth playing that you couldn't just buy "I-win" gear from their cash shop. It's not that way anymore. Tomes being the biggest factor. The modifier bonuses you can get from your stats are huge in this game, especially a couple points into your saves, and DCs. The amount of clickies in the game removes class balance. A barbarian can have a displacement click, a haste click, summon monster click, rage spell click, etc... Why does he need to party with a class with those buffs? Wizards can pretty much power through all of the content with a partner or solo. A group of 5 barbarians and 1 cleric can smash through most of the game. Even then, you don't really need the cleric. The class balance is gone.

What's the next year going to bring to DDO? +9 or +10 enhancement bonuses to stats on items, 5d6 extra damage from various sources on weapons, 75% incorporeal? I know they're revamping epic augments and regular item augments, but that's just going to add more power to the newer players, and they wont balance the content to their new mechanics. Then we'll get some raid that is buggy as hell, drops mediocre rewards, and only a few classes really benefit from the new loots.

The only reason I do come into DDO is to socialize with the 8 players in my guild, and maybe 1 or 2 friends that are still playing. I don't come online to play or grind anymore. At least you admit they do need a drastic change like reinventing themselves again.

[Ape_Man]

I do agree with you on most things. However, from an active guild of about 30 or so players, only about 8 regularly play anymore. A big turn off for most was over the past year. They streamlined levelling. They allow the purchase of TP within the game with their TP codes. There used to be a huge stance against selling stuff from the DDO store in-game. The power creep introduced new items and crafting to be able to tackle the content from 1-20 much easier. Sure, I can create my own challenge, but I can't do it in a pug, and creating my own challenge really limits the social aspect of the game. There is no fear of failing certain raids on elite anymore, like VoD, ToD, HoX. They practically removed the timer from raids by selling a bypass. So 20 completions on normal = 1-2 days. Epic Destinies were huge on the power creep. Even the newer content isn't that hard. Sure you can do EE, but then like I wrote before, it drastically limits the social aspect.

You are completely right, DDO is going nowhere. Their last gasp was MotU, which just brought a whole swath of issues. They aren't exactly that quick with putting out updates, and when they do they generally break so many things that it seems to be a running joke to guess which major feature will be broken with the next update. I certainly hope you're right when you say Turbine will reinvent itself, because the path it is going down now doesn't seem to hint that. They reinvented themselves with MotU, which brought a lot of fun in the game, but it didn't bring a lot of life to the game. The advent of more f2p or even b2p games over the last year is attracting the casual players away from DDO.

I remember when DDO went f2p, and it was one of the only f2p games worth playing that you couldn't just buy "I-win" gear from their cash shop. It's not that way anymore. Tomes being the biggest factor. The modifier bonuses you can get from your stats are huge in this game, especially a couple points into your saves, and DCs. The amount of clickies in the game removes class balance. A barbarian can have a displacement click, a haste click, summon monster click, rage spell click, etc... Why does he need to party with a class with those buffs? Wizards can pretty much power through all of the content with a partner or solo. A group of 5 barbarians and 1 cleric can smash through most of the game. Even then, you don't really need the cleric. The class balance is gone.

What's the next year going to bring to DDO? +9 or +10 enhancement bonuses to stats on items, 5d6 extra damage from various sources on weapons, 75% incorporeal? I know they're revamping epic augments and regular item augments, but that's just going to add more power to the newer players, and they wont balance the content to their new mechanics. Then we'll get some raid that is buggy as hell, drops mediocre rewards, and only a few classes really benefit from the new loots.

The only reason I do come into DDO is to socialize with the 8 players in my guild, and maybe 1 or 2 friends that are still playing. I don't come online to play or grind anymore. At least you admit they do need a drastic change like reinventing themselves again.

I wasn't here for the pre- F2P dark times, but I'm imagining things were much worse. Am I wrong?

[Karavek]

Ok, I was with ya until this comment. We Irish have a saying... that's "malarkey."

Putting it another way, WoTC sat down with Cryptic and Turbine in a very public setting and swore allegiance to both game developers. It's in their best interests to keep both games afloat, and I'll tell you, DDO is not going anywhere. They are both niche games and as my guild and others will prove, there is room for both f2p games, even in the same guild.

After Turbine's Asherons Call black eye, many of us that are still playing DDO said Turbine's days were numbered, or that they weren't the right company to take on the responsibility. Turbine didnt take the world by storm with DDO, but they made one hell of a great game thats entertained us for many years. That's just fact. DDO might be in bug hell right now, and paying for it with an obvious drop in subs, but Turbine will just reinvent itself again, and be just fine. As ****ed as I've been with DDO this passed year with the crappy QA, DDO is going NO WHERE. Simple as that.

No offense but I have to LOL at the way you say they swore allegiance. A business does not have honor nor duty to make such a term even remotely appropriate to use.

If your not more in touch with the wider MMO world, you may not be aware that with NC Soft killing off city of heroes, it didnt just hurt NC Softs rep, its poisoning the well of MMO everywhere, making players wake up and be aware how little they get for investing in a game that can be pulled at a moments notice and for no real reason. Articles written over at Massively pull no punches and recognize the writing on the wall. With this one company's selfish actions and lack of loyalty to loyal customers the era of blindly subbing, or supporting a game that can be taken from them at any time.

Absolutely nothing makes DDOs survival a given, and infact with the trend seen in other MMO it makes its inevitable demise when NWO launches all but a certainty. Coupled with WOTCs own trend to forsake and push out newer systems for D&D, its likely that with 5E already on the horizon they are itching to make 3E ever more forgotten so that the 4E product still out on the shelves will move better.

Likewise lets not forget pathfinder online is in the works, and is the current fan favored D20 system. Do you really think DDO can survive with 2 real rivals for player population within the D&D style, while enduring the masses of sword and sorcery MMO out there.

The final point is DDOs main setting, to many the fact they put us in the realms only hints at WOTC wanting to get players here thinking more about the realms, new players coming here wanting to play FR are often getting dissappointed and leaving DDO, NWO will almost certainly capture these masses of missed opportunities turbine let slip through the fingers with the choice to make eberron, one of the most disliked settings in D&D history its main setting.

DDO has always been hindered by that issue more then even all the bugs and exploits. FR fans will stomach 4E more happily then they ever stomached eberron.

[Karavek]

I wasn't here for the pre- F2P dark times, but I'm imagining things were much worse. Am I wrong?

actually yes, the fact is aside from the grindishness of DDO, its only gotten worse with age. They still cant get that overly static content defeats the reason to even have classes like rogues for traps, or the fact completion is the only real XP makes every quest a zerg fest again making skills like stealth largely meaningless.

DDO really was diablo the mmo, just lacking alot of the honest hack and slash fun of diablo.

A game thats level cap grew so fitfully and content that grew so haphazardly only left us playing with matches in a house of cards soaked in gas while perched on a paper table inside a volcano.

WOTC hasnt been a company real D&D fans have every trusted, that trust died with TSR. Expecting them to do right by DDO fans rather then try and force DDO players to move on to NWO is insanity.

[Musouka]

DDO has always been hindered by that issue more then even all the bugs and exploits. FR fans will stomach 4E more happily then they ever stomached eberron.

Pre-F2p wasn't bad, but it was a lot more social. People actually took their time in quests, and even RPed more from my experience. Making a group almost always meant 1 healer, 1 rogue, 1 caster, and the rest barbarian/fighter/paladin/ranger, but overall it was worse on the fact that you had very limited amount of content. It was massively repetitive. Shroud used to be an accomplishment, though.

As for the Forgotten Realms, there are much more fans of FR than there are of Eberron. Eberron filled a niche for people to try something new, and newer players to D&D took it it better than those who already had a history with FR. There are also tons of people who come from playing Baldur's Gate series, Icewind Dale series, BG: Dark Alliance series, Neverwinter Nights series, etc... there are just more FR PC games out there that players will easily adapt to the setting of Neverwinter Online.

TBH, I am looking forward to Neverwinter, but I am looking further ahead for Pathfinder Online.

[Ape_Man]

Pre-F2p wasn't bad, but it was a lot more social. People actually took their time in quests, and even RPed more from my experience. Making a group almost always meant 1 healer, 1 rogue, 1 caster, and the rest barbarian/fighter/paladin/ranger, but overall it was worse on the fact that you had very limited amount of content. It was massively repetitive. Shroud used to be an accomplishment, though.

New players still do this, and check the who list the game is full of new players. I started with F2P and remember needing to group. Sure, once you have a zillion plat for pots it's not needed any more, new players don't have zillions of plat.

As for the Forgotten Realms, there are much more fans of FR than there are of Eberron. Eberron filled a niche for people to try something new, and newer players to D&D took it it better than those who already had a history with FR. There are also tons of people who come from playing Baldur's Gate series, Icewind Dale series, BG: Dark Alliance series, Neverwinter Nights series, etc... there are just more FR PC games out there that players will easily adapt to the setting of Neverwinter Online.

TBH, I am looking forward to Neverwinter, but I am looking further ahead for Pathfinder Online.

All the Neverwinter characters look like cokie-cutter dreck. That kills the game to me.

[Musouka]

New players still do this, and check the who list the game is full of new players. I started with F2P and remember needing to group. Sure, once you have a zillion plat for pots it's not needed any more, new players don't have zillions of plat.



All the Neverwinter characters look like cokie-cutter dreck. That kills the game to me.

Doing that for new players is nice, but what are they doing to retain older players? Eventually the newer players will hit the same point as much of the older players.

As has been said before. You can't really judge this game in-development, as they haven't fleshed out all of the classes they want, or much of the game as they want yet. For testing purposes, they pretty much made a class for each defined role. Controller, Tanker, DPS, and Healer. It's easier to test the game mechanics if there are only those 4. More classes and customizability will be added.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

All the Neverwinter characters look like cokie-cutter dreck. That kills the game to me.

You are misinformed on this part. Neverwinter character creation in terms of customizable vanity is extremely strong, and the options to make your character look a certain way will blow DDO out of the water, on this one aspect. You will see.

Now as far as non-vanity character customization, that's another ball of wax entirely.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

N.....Absolutely nothing makes DDOs survival a given....

You simply don't have enough knowledge of DDO to even have this discussion, so if I see anything of interest I'll respond, if not... so be it.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

...snip....

I have to agree with you on the entirety of your last point. Tyrs Paladium has about 80 active and many are still playing, but no doubt, this past year was very frustrating for some, and we did lose some to game bugs/p2w/easy buttons.

However the Forgotten Realms quests I thought were excellent, and the new prefixes/suffixes were grand, especially for newer players.

How do they reinvent themselves? Well, they have the enhancement retooling in the works. As long as they test the heck out of it, and it's mainly bug free (laughter can be heard from the upper rafters of House P arena), its got a good chance. This game should have died in 2009, but through every game release, even GW2, they keep plugging along, as returning players repeatedly stated the social aspect as the main reason for retuning. The other reason though was the excellent combat/game mechanics. This has been altered a bit with some of Turbine's 2012's decisions. Still, I don't feel this is the time for DDO to die, I feel its got a good many years to go. But they definitely have a lot of house cleaning to do now, there's no doubt about it.

[Karavek]

You simply don't have enough knowledge of DDO to even have this discussion, so if I see anything of interest I'll respond, if not... so be it.

Sweety it has nothing to do with inside knowledge of DDO and everything to do with being aware of the MMO scene in general. DO you know anything about NC Soft and what they did to a still very successful MMO with hundreds of thousands of active players? THey shut it down simply because the umbrella company no longer wants to go in that direction.

Meanwhile articles at places like Massively pull no punches pointing out how we who play MMO have no control, no return on our investment, and no certainty nor reason to expect an MMO to live simply because it has an active player base.

MMO are a dieing genre, and that is simply fact. People are no longer interested in the time sink style play, and virtual worlds when they recognize the painting on the wall. Turbine could have the best business quarter in the world, and WB could say we dont want to support this type of game anymore, shut it down. They are not even required to refund pre paid subscriptions, they can simply give you free access to some new game whether you want it or not, and call it a day.

Wanting to believe DDO just cant be shut down because it has a hard core playerbase or a few thousand active subbers is just fooling yourself. Current market trend says to me that DDO dies when NWO launches. For no other reason then to force us on DDO to go there which helps WOTC, or to another MMO.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

MMO are a dieing genre

Good night, Irene.

[Uska]

Sweety it has nothing to do with inside knowledge of DDO and everything to do with being aware of the MMO scene in general. DO you know anything about NC Soft and what they did to a still very successful MMO with hundreds of thousands of active players? THey shut it down simply because the umbrella company no longer wants to go in that direction.

Meanwhile articles at places like Massively pull no punches pointing out how we who play MMO have no control, no return on our investment, and no certainty nor reason to expect an MMO to live simply because it has an active player base.

MMO are a dieing genre, and that is simply fact. People are no longer interested in the time sink style play, and virtual worlds when they recognize the painting on the wall. Turbine could have the best business quarter in the world, and WB could say we dont want to support this type of game anymore, shut it down. They are not even required to refund pre paid subscriptions, they can simply give you free access to some new game whether you want it or not, and call it a day.

Wanting to believe DDO just cant be shut down because it has a hard core playerbase or a few thousand active subbers is just fooling yourself. Current market trend says to me that DDO dies when NWO launches. For no other reason then to force us on DDO to go there which helps WOTC, or to another MMO.

If your right I guess I won't be playing anything until pathfinder comes out since other than ddo I had decided that wotc wouldn't get another dime from me and there is no other MMO for me and one last question what qualifies you to talk about market trends? Where is your MBA from? Where's your hard core data on how ddo is doing?

[Postumus]

NWO would have to be AWESOME for me to consider switching from DDO. The caliber of the Eveningstar content
Turbine has been putting out looks so good every time I play it, and I have only just scratched the surface of epic destinies.


Not just the mechanics and content would have to be good (and I'm guessing content would take a few years), but the build complexity would have to rival DDO which, from what I can see, is unparalleled in the MMO world.

[Postumus]

MMO are a dieing genre, and that is simply fact. People are no longer interested in the time sink style play, and virtual worlds when they recognize the painting on the wall.

That's why companies are still spending between $60-100 million ($200 million if you believe the SWTOR costs) to create new MMOs? I think you're a bit premature sounding the MMO death knell. I do believe MMOs will continue to morph, as they have been, into something more/different than we see today.

[Missing_Minds]

MMO are a dieing genre, and that is simply fact.

Pfff. it is Darwin, baby. Evolution! MMOs are becoming more common because communication tools are that much more advanced than what they were.
MMOs are hardly dying right now. Perhaps MMOs as you knew them, but not MMOs as I know them. What you said is the same sort of blanket statement of "video games are dying." I heard this back in the 90s. Obviously they didn't.

If anything MMOs will become larger and more common place due to the methods in which people can connect to play. The current fad is "mobile." I figure this will continue to ride for a least another year on the hype before it settles in. I don't think hand held systems have a huge life much longer honestly. I expect MMOs to start to hook into consules more, mobile apps, and PCs better. But things happen in stages.

You are misinformed on this part. Neverwinter character creation in terms of customizable vanity is extremely strong, and the options to make your character look a certain way will blow DDO out of the water, on this one aspect. You will see.

Yeah.. if Cryptic doesn't nail character looks, they really f'ed up. Gameplay... errr... I've idea how they are going to do it. I just know the video of a rogue from a few months back did NOT impress me at all. If I wanted that, I'd go play Aion.