PA vs Precision

[rimble]

Also worth considering in the opposite direction is the huge influx of sneak attack damage via the Shadowdancer ED.

Yeah, but Shadowdancer already takes care of allowing Sneak Attack to work via Dark Elusion. If you're Shadowdancer I think that's an argument away from using Precision.

[Coyopa]

You can dramatically increase your sneak attack opportunities if you have an Improved Deception item equipped, such as the Seal of House Avithoul (Sneak Attack +5, Exceptional Sneak Attack +3, Improved Deception, [7wis/dex OR +2 insightful wis/dex]) and it goes in the ring slot. I've got one on my monk, rogue, and druid and like it a lot. Not only does it improve your sneak attack opportunities, but it often reduces the damage you take because the mob is looking the other way. So, I get to do more damage and take even less. I've found the Improved Deception often tends to make the skeletal archers in Wiz-King have a tendency to just stand there and do nothing, while with Precision, Piercing Clarity and Grim Precision, I get to sneak attack them.

On my rogue, with the seal and an epic midnight greetings, the mobs are almost never facing him. So, he just tears them a new one with a long series of sneak attacks and vorpal strikes from Assassin 3. Something to think about...

[unbongwah]

The investment is pretty minor--2 build points into Int and a +3 tome.

I like how a +3 tome is now a "minor" investment (to some). Guess it's all relative...

Yeah, but Shadowdancer already takes care of allowing Sneak Attack to work via Dark Elusion. If you're Shadowdancer I think that's an argument away from using Precision.

First off, you won't get Dark Elusion until you max out SD; what do you do for high-fort enemies in the meantime? [I know some people only care about the final optimized build, but I tend to focus on the journey, if only because my severe altitis means I'm often distracted before I've maxed out any given build. ] Second, the DE vulnerability only procs on vorpal strikes and IIUC only applies to SAs not crits; there's certainly an argument to be made for having both fort reduction from Precision (and Imp Sunder if you can squeeze it in) to make them vulnerable to crits and Dark Elusion in your bag of DPS tricks for high-fort enemies.

[slimkj]

Let's not talk about those blasted rings, lest I render the whole forum asunder with my righteous ire...

On a serious note, have Ring of the Stalker on one finger and Holy Burst Nyoko's on the other so unless I'm prepared to put in the time retooling to switch everything else around, I'm not getting Impr Deception on a ringslot any time soon.

Generally speaking, I think it's unwise to rely on being able to get SA. Versatility is good, and whilst one can get SA quite a lot of the time, it's not possible all of the time.
--
To be honest though I think it's perfectly possible to run only with PA and just turn it off when you struggle, rather than switch from PA to Precision. It's just how I like to run. Preference, as it almost always is.

[rimble]

I like how a +3 tome is now a "minor" investment (to some). Guess it's all relative...

First off, you won't get Dark Elusion until you max out SD; what do you do for high-fort enemies in the meantime? [I know some people only care about the final optimized build, but I tend to focus on the journey, if only because my severe altitis means I'm often distracted before I've maxed out any given build. ] Second, the DE vulnerability only procs on vorpal strikes and IIUC only applies to SAs not crits; there's certainly an argument to be made for having both fort reduction from Precision (and Imp Sunder if you can squeeze it in) to make them vulnerable to crits and Dark Elusion in your bag of DPS tricks for high-fort enemies.

Well...

First, we're talking about Light Monk, so Sneak Attack isn't really the focus while leveling that up. You'll be fine missing out on what little Sneak Attack you have from items or H-E/Halfling on some things.

Second, crits aren't a big focus of Monks while leveling up either, so you'll be similarly fine without those during some encounters.

Third, we were specifically talking about being in the Shadowdancer ED for the 'huge influx of sneak attack damage', so it's perfectly acceptable to assume you've ranked up in it.

Also, Monks, particularly in Wind stance, vorpal plenty frequently, as clearly evidenced by my WOO WOO Grave Wrappings.

The hardest part about the decision is the full value of Precision is unknown because we don't know the various Fortification numbers we're dealing with. For the 100% things, I really don't feel that strongly that having a 25% chance of a 10% chance to crit is all that overwhelming compared to a straight +5 damage per attack. Sure, your crits can range from x2 to x5 to an occasional x6, but I still don't think that'd make up for it.

Monks just aren't a crit strong class, and Sneak Attack might best be handled via Shadowdancer because we're talking about Light Monk--so they'd want to be in Shadowdancer to have enough Sneak Attack to matter anyways, and then also get to mooch 25% Incorporeality.

[sephiroth1084]

I like how a +3 tome is now a "minor" investment (to some). Guess it's all relative...

Have you been playing endgame for the last 4 months? I've pulled 3 +3 Int tomes, and I think 4 +3 Wis tomes from epic quests (hard most of the time). Those can be traded for whatever tome you need. Additionally, we get +3 tomes as potential rewards for 20th Shroud, Reaver, VoD, and HoX, and can buy them in the DDO store periodically. You can buy them on the AH, or on the forums for a reasonable price.

I'm not talking about +4 tomes here, which, while more prevalent, are hardly common at this point. +3s are almost as common these days as +2s have been for years. All of my characters that want a +3 Int tome had read one. Ditto for Wis and Cha, and most have gotten their Str, Dex and Con tomes as well.

[flipstre]

So for a HELF Dark Monk wis build is PA better or precision. Also is it better to stick to cleric dilletante or go rogue for the sneak attack?

Thoughts please

[slimkj]

So for a HELF Dark Monk wis build is PA better or precision. Also is it better to stick to cleric dilletante or go rogue for the sneak attack?

Thoughts please

I have HElf Dark WIS build. My thoughts are as I said before:

* Most of the time PA is better
* Sometimes Precision is better

I switch it up depending on where I am. Disclaimer: I still don't have +4 attack slotted anywhere at the moment.

[t0r012]

You can dramatically increase your sneak attack opportunities if you have an Improved Deception item equipped, such as the Seal of House Avithoul (Sneak Attack +5, Exceptional Sneak Attack +3, Improved Deception, [7wis/dex OR +2 insightful wis/dex]) and it goes in the ring slot. I've got one on my monk, rogue, and druid and like it a lot. Not only does it improve your sneak attack opportunities, but it often reduces the damage you take because the mob is looking the other way. So, I get to do more damage and take even less. I've found the Improved Deception often tends to make the skeletal archers in Wiz-King have a tendency to just stand there and do nothing, while with Precision, Piercing Clarity and Grim Precision, I get to sneak attack them.

On my rogue, with the seal and an epic midnight greetings, the mobs are almost never facing him. So, he just tears them a new one with a long series of sneak attacks and vorpal strikes from Assassin 3. Something to think about...

Ring slot is so tough for a monk, always has been.
Ring one is going to be a holyburst ToD , period , full stop , fin, end of story.

That leaves you one ring slot
So then you have a choice another burst element from ToD which is still a fine damage choice even considering stalker that is another option.
Seal of do'run for stun 10 or ex stun 5 is really , really tough to pass up. Freeing the need for stun suffix from wraps opens up some very nice damage possibilities.

Stalker ring might be a nice slot for a rogue but IMO for a monk down to essentially 1 free ring slot stalker isn't so interesting.