DDOGamer: We need to save PvP

[Memnir]

PvP needs saving?
Seems to me like it's steady going for those who enjoy it. And for those who don't like PvP in our DDO, no amount of "saving" will draw us into it.


No, I don't think PvP needs saving at all. While it's not going to be a dominant factor in DDO, it's not an endangered species either. The only change that needs to be made to PvP would be to put a **** door on the Lobster pit and make it it's own instance.

[samthedagger]

The logic of that article is flawed in so many places.

Start with the assumption that we all want the game to continue, remain fun, and to receive a stream of new content.

Sure, I'm with you there.

Then consider that the sole requirement for this assumption is that there are enough paying customers to justify additional investment.

You need money to pay the ships' crew, keep the lights on, etc. Nothing new here.

Now ponder the fact that PvP players are in fact, players, and therefore, potentially income producers. We can all agree that more players is better than less players.

Hmm. Are PvP players income producers? We have no statistics on that. How many PvP players are there really? How much income do they generate? No statistics. But judging by the "any given day" sample of number of people in the Lobster versus people doing anything else that is not PvP, I am gonna estimate it's less than 5% on my my server, and that be on a good night for PvP.

Now consider development efficiency: as a system, PvP does not require the same kind of monthly hand-crafted attention that other types of new content require. Get PvP right, once, and you can leave it be for awhile. Versus a new quest that will need to be replaced with an even newer quest in the next update.

Here is where the logic really starts to fall apart. Now we cannot say definitively how much dev time this would take, but it would definitely take monthly hand-crafted time on a very consistent basis. Every time they add a new level cap, every time they change the rules for enhancements, every time they add a new suite of items, every time they do a spell pass, every time they add any kind of new functionality or option at all really it would have to be balanced for PvP to keep the PvPers (who are clearly a small minority of gamers) happy. You get PvP right once, and it will be broken the next time they add an update to the game just like everything else which will require ironing out with a patch or two. That is dev time taken away from more serious issues which still persist, like raids and quest objectives bugging and no giving completion. Finally, I will say just because they add a new quest does not mean it becomes obsolete in the next update. While it is true newer content is favored, that does not mean older content gets no or little play. thar be a very large set of the populace engaged in TRing their characters and working towards completionist or some other treasure map that requires many lives. They run through lots of old content all the time, even if it is for no other reason then to add a little variety.

Finally, consider replayability. If PvP can be made fun, it will always be like that, replayable infinitely without further dev interaction.

This point does not follow if the previous point is invalid. If balancing PvP to make it fun is one of the goals of one Update, as I have already pointed out there will be "something" that messes it up in the next Update and require dev reevaluation. PvP will not remain static because player options do not remain static. This argument is flawed on many levels.

I am not one who hates PvPers. I am not going to call you lame or a whiner or anything like that because you like PvP. You and the other PvPers can do as you like with the game. But PvP is not what this game is about. the ships' crew have spent six years (more if you count alpha and beta testing phases) focusing on PvE. Going back and trying to make it about both PvP AND PvE is practically a lost cause with all the code that makes up this game at this point. People who like PvP have always had much better options than DDO and they make up such a small proportion of the populace that they be not a driving factor in the money for DDO.

That said, I would not object to some minor adjustments to PvP. Perhaps a way to earn very small amounts of XP (I say very small because as I said, PvE is what this game is about and we don't want people exploiting it) or crafting essences. For example, a 5 minute death match could earn the winning team (the team with the most kills) 5 XP for each level of opponents defeated and 1 random essence for each opponent defeated. Defeat six level 25 opponents and you get 750 XP and 6 random essences. Not really exploitable, but not a total waste of time. Just make it an award for part of the existing structure set up for death matches so it wouldn't take a lot of time to develop. If people begin running death matches a whole lot more as a consequence of this minor addition, then maybe you'd have a case that people want PvP. But I doubt it would make more than a hair's breadth of difference.

That is my opinion on the matter. No hate. No personal insults. Just the honest truth and actual logic, which that post you linked does not have.

[samthedagger]

Yar! It seems me post been hijacked by the pirates o' the forum code into soundin' all piratey.

Nice call, devs. Way to bring National Talk Like A Pirate Day a little attention.

[bigolbear]

I be ponderin DDO got pvp perfect.

1. Its not needed at all for the rest of the game.
2. Its totaly seperate, you cant for instance get ganked on your way to the pub.
3. Its not remotely balanced - or rather the balance of teams is left up to the players, an important distincton.
4. Its fun...
5. it has lots of interesting modes like team deathmatch and ctf.
6. theres no reward other than bragging rights.

I would hapily recomend DDO's pvp game to players of first person shooters - team or solo.

Its not for mmo players who tend to like their pvp very serious, very balanced, and with a battle feild of dead noobs to make them feel good about them selves.

pvp in ddo mirrors pen and paper - knights duel knights, casters duel casters - ther is nothgin wrong with this. you dont take a knife to a gun fight, but theres nothing stopping you aranging a fight with no guns!

Despite my respect for the op - and the posts they normaly make, i dotn agree with their assertion.

[bigolbear]

double post... error error does not compute.

[Memnir]

Okay, thought about this a bit... and I think I have a way to "save" PvP.


First off, change nothing about it's mechanics, locations, modes, etc. Well, maybe add instanced doors to make me happy - and since this is my post I'll include it as a serious suggestion. () Actually, this may come in handy, as I'll get to in a sec.


Add a new tab to the DDO Store: PvP.

Put items in there that would help boost PvP performance, and usable only in PvP instances (told ya the door idea would come in handy). Turbine could sell items that would radically boost one's HP regen, melee attack speed, actual PvP invisiblity for sneak attacks, energy immunity for 10 seconds (single and specific types), and so on and so forth.

Price them reasonably, so as not to price-gouge the PvP base - and maybe offer VIPs a 5% perma-discount on PvP items.


This way, people PvPing would be incentivised to spend money, and increase their PvP prowess. Since those items would have no impact on PvE play, there would be no need to balance these items for in-quest use. And, if some devious Dev ingenuity went into the items... it could add a new layer of fun to the pits. Items could also be added for Capture the Flag and Deathmatch maps - things like base-movement speed boosts, grant crit-damage on all hits - but no crit-specific procs, insta-use D-Door spells that could take you back to safety, etc.

Maybe put in an in-game NPC vendor who'd sell minor versions of these boosts for plat and keep the Major and Xorian (already trying to brand the idea... sorry) versions of these boosts in the Store.


Basically, add enough new stuff to make PvP it's own unique game within DDO. Don't balance the classes, don't give away XP, don't give away items or gold. Make it FUN and a little crazy - and people will at least try it out. It may in fact gain popularity and add a new wrinkle to DDO.

The only, only, reward I'd advocate for this style of PvP revision would be a slew of unique Armor kits - bound to account. This would be a non-tangible, non-material reward that would further add to the "bragging rights" PvP reward. No idea how to put this in game-mechanics terms yet - but I think the idea has some traction. Probably be best suited to the Team modes.. where victory grants you a token, x-number of tokens can be cashed in for a kit.

It worked for TF2's Mann vs Machine mode, which took a PvP game and made it PvE. Perhaps looking at that example, but reversing it, would bring new life to DDO's PvE meta-game.

[Flavilandile]

Not in PvP Forum ? *Check
Talking about PvP ? *Check

Thread is fair game then. Lets start.

TBH balancing the classes just for PVP like other boring MMOs will be the last thing me and a lot of others desire from DDO. However, IMHO if DEVs allocate little XP and Guild Renown for PVP, that might attract a lot of players into it.

Yup, Balancing the classes for PvP would just kill the game.
No, PvP shouldn't give any reward at all. I'll agree to a PvP Leaderboard though, it was supposed to be here since PvP was added into the game but never worked ( one of the many things that has been broken for years ).

I'll agree on one point at least. If we theoretically had a well balanced pvp system, it could be nothing but good for the health of the game. The 2 main points against pvp seem to be the inability to balance the classes to be even remotely playable against eachother and the "dev time" argument.

D&D is inherently unbalanced, it's a cooperative game not a PvP game. As such it's impossible to balance the classes without getting rid of the whole D&D system. What balancing there is in PnP is that the Spellcasters have a limited numbers of spells slot each day to which they affect spells, once they cast that spell slot it's gone for the day. So Melee/Ranged people at high level can wait until the spellcaster has cast all his useful spells and then they can nail him... if they have survived.

Since the devs can't get PvE class balance right (specifically caster vs. melee), I have no faith they could get PvP balance right. I'm assuming that any PvP specific balance is reserved for PvP and PvE would be untouched as a result.

Read above, they would have to design a whole new system that is not D&D to balance the classes. And that would impact PvE, as they won't put two different gaming systems just for the PvP sake.

The PvP system is almost perfect as it is, it has no impact on the real gaming experience ( read : PvE ), it has no reward, it cannot infringe on the real gaming experience ( you can't gank people, unless they drop in the pits, but then they are fair game ), it already has different styles ( CtF, pit brawl , ... ).
I will agree that spending the time to renew the maps of the other options ( beside the pit brawl ) would be well spent but otherwise just keep PvP as it is.

[donfilibuster]

Add a new tab to the DDO Store: PvP.

For sake of avoiding confusion maybe only put a single token item in the store and let that be traded inside the PvP area.
Call it "arena tickets" or whatever you want, or better yet, use astral diamonds, it'd be a good use for them.

[Memnir]

For sake of avoiding confusion maybe only put a single token item in the store and let that be traded inside the PvP area.
Call it "arena tickets" or whatever you want, or better yet, use astral diamonds, it'd be a good use for them.

That is a very good idea.

[grgurius]

Now ponder the fact that PvP players are in fact, players, and therefore, potentially income producers. We can all agree that more players is better than less players.

Thats the part that bugs me, are they realy paying customers?

Judging by the bahavior of an average pvper*, it looks like most of the pvpers are kids, people without a steady income, so where are is the big $ there.

*talking about trash talk, whining, calls for nerf etc. There are exceptions, but sadly they are just that, exceptions.

[Memnir]

by the bahavior of an average pvper*, it looks like most of the pvpers are kids, people without a steady income, so where are is the big $ there.

Teens are a huge source of disposable income, as most retailers will tell you. They are also extremely susceptible to the impulse buy.

[grgurius]

Teens are a huge source of disposable income, as most retailers will tell you. They are also extremely susceptible to the impulse buy.

Remind me to never go into retail buisness, i couldnt sell water in the midle of a desert.

[Entelech]

Not signed.

Attempting to "balance" wildly different character builds against one another will destroy the very build flexibility that gives DDO its appeal and replayability. Destroying your brand identity to appeal to an audience that is unlikely to bother noticing seems like a poor business decision.

PVP in DDO exists mostly as a build testing forum and a pastime between PvE questing and raiding. Any serious attempt to change this will lead to the cookie-cutterness of WoW, where all characters do exactly the same things, and only the color of the particle effects really distinguishes them.

Therefore, since PVP in DDO is deliberately marginalized due to balance considerations, and should stay that way, it hardly seems reasonable to spend Dev resources on the project when those resources are already spread thin on tasks such as the enhancement revamp, bugfixes, and new mainstream content.

If you feel a desperate need to be a griefer who ruins the day of some fourteen year old South Korean kid, there are other MMO's. Go play those, and come back once you grow up.

[Uska]

They could balance the classes -within the PVP area-, that shouldn't upset anyone.

Yes it would anything they do like that would likely bug and affect the normal game as well as the dev time to do something so pointless

[grgurius]

Yes it would anything they do like that would likely bug and affect the normal game as well as the dev time to do something so pointless

I'm certain it would go fine, i mean last time they messed with pvp it everything was flawless.

[cdbd3rd]

....


The ones you have to convince isn't the players not liking pvp (and I don't see the hate you mention, it's just that people don't care and play better suited games for pvp) it's Warner and Turbine.

Oh, the hatred is there, trust. It's just that we started getting our nads kicked for saying it out loud, so we sit in our dark corners with our little clouds of PvP hate gathered close around us to keep them safe.

The only PvP I've seen that comes close to being workable is the system over in LOTRO, where it's not player-characters against each other, but players playing enemy monsters. [example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGSWwqy-HgU] That is the only system I see that could possibly draw some support from the masses - just for the opportunity to play some of the mobs we've made suggestions for as player races.

[Missing_Minds]

LMAO.

Yes, the average PvPer in this game has the budget and behavior of a 12 year old. "Saving the game" by ruining it even more doesn't seem like a very good idea. I'd rather see Turbine banish all the PvPers to a separate server. Maybe we could rescue the Wayfinder players to a more populated server, and send all the PvPers there.

Emm.. enact "friendly fire" also.

[Llewndyn]

We really do.

DDOGamer explains why.

I like how you are unclear about the fact that you link to your own article, whether that is intended or not is unclear.

Anyway:

I don't want to use the same old "PVP dev time takes away from PVP", even though it does and that is, and will always be, a valid point. Here is the end all issue PVE gamers have with these and all threads like this:

1. "I pay to play the game too!" Yes, yes you do. But you knew coming in that this game is not built for PVP. You knew after playing it for a while that PVP is an afterthought and is very, VERY low on the development list. Why are you trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? I didn't buy Grand Theft Auto because I like seeing how fast I can swim between the docks; yes, if that's what I want to do it's there and I can do it but that in no way, shape or form should give me the right to dictate that new versions of GTA enhance swimming and add water courses for that because me and a small contingent enjoy that; I bought the game knowing it is about driving cars and beating up hookers and I found something else I liked about it. Same thing here. If you bought a subscription with the express idea that your subscription funds something most of the playerbase doesn't want, you deserve to get put down every time.

2. "It doesn't take any development time/ resources away from PVE!" - Yes, it does. Even the time spent reading all these threads to make sure we stay on our Ps and Qs is enough to make PVP an even further annoyance. A guildy made a character with a similar name as one of my toons and I told him I was going to kill him (in game), so we went to a private PVP room. I was appalled to see there are custom rooms built for just this sort of thing, meaning someone, SOMEWHERE, wasted time building this. This same feeling is why we take a steaming pile of opposition and drop it on every thread like this. I don't go log onto Battlefield and ask them to waste time making it so I can build and design a house and play the Sims, I go play the Sims. Do the same.

3. "Why did they even put PVP in the game if they didn't want it to be a bigger part of the game? Huh?! Answer that, Mr. Smartypants!" - If you sold fannypacks, and heard that offering 11 cents worth of rhinestones in a small baggy along with the fannypack would net you 3% more customers, and each fanny pack sells for 10 dollars, you would do it too. You would not then listen to those 3% of your customerbase and annoy the other 97% by permanently attaching the rhinestones to said fannypack. Same deal here. It's a quirk, was probably never intended to be more than a quirk, and should stay a quirk.

[Sonos]

One easy way I see to balance PVP is to set up maybe 3 seperate types of PVP...seperate instances:

Have a Melee Pit where only melee based toons can enter. Basically turn off offensive spells and healing spells and ranged combat. Any class can enter, but only Buffs spells will work and Hand to Hand Combat.

Have a Ranged pit (Same as above, but turn on ranged combat...and also allow melee combat)

3rd Pit would be anything goes. ALL spells would be available, All combat styles available...no restrictions.


I don't beleive this would be difficult to program and might add a little bit of balance.

I would like to know if the OP and anyone else has played the Capture the Flag option? You can establish the rules by only letting a certain range of class in. It's in your control. The pub PvP is garbage. If you get a nice group of 4-6 on 4-6 in a capture the flag map(preferably the Sands one) and still hate the PvP, then maybe the discussion could progress, but I feel most people are hanging out in the Lobster with it's obvious suckage.

You could have all melee Capture the flag, or all ranged, or all caster, or even a mix of casters, ranged, and melee with the rule that unless someone has the flag, you must attack those close to your class. Example: Wizards on wizards or sorcs. Wizards or sorcs on FVSs. Rangers on rangers or Artis. And if someone picks up the flag it's a free for all, etc. Point is: you make the rules.

[RabidKoala]

They could always make a server where you have PvP everywhere that is the only place PvP is allowed. That was there would be no pvp on the rest of the servers and yet there would still be a place where there is some. Even make them have to pay for it if they want it.