Necromancer / Archmage Final Endgame Items - Post Update 15 (At least 1 tr needed)

[Matuse]

Do you mean... I'm confused about how DR works? So... DR 15/evil means the item property will reduce incoming damage by 15 unless the damage is considered evil....Am... I wrong?

You are correct here.

I was assuming most mobs in ddo deal some form of evil aligned dmg to bypass 15/evil.

This is where you go off the rails. Evil monster does not mean evil damage.

With that said, I would feel safer with a 10/good, as most mobs aren't good aligned...

Being good aligned does not mean inflicting /Good damage.

(assuming most mobs who are aligned for good don't use evil equipment or deal evil damage because that would be.... illogical?)

Any player using any greensteel weapon will do /Evil damage. It's a property of the weapon type.

But you are right, that we don't truly know if that skeleton archer or what-not is shooting regular arrows at you or evil tipped arrows.

Yes, we do, by looking at the combat log. Those archers will hit you for X in piercing damage from the arrow, and Y in evil damage because they have Pure Evil on their arrows or bows (doesn't really matter which). Pure Evil...SHOULD...be giving /Evil DR bypass, just like Pure Good on our weapons gives /Good bypass.

But regardless of what it SHOULD be doing, it's not actually doing it. Again, from the combat log, archer arrow damage is being reduced by /Evil DR from items like Kaelth's Touch.

But isn't the logic... this evil demon/undead/monster will not hit me with "evil" damage even though its nature is "evil"... kinda flawed?

No. Why should one's moral outlook influence the type of damage their weapons inflict?

Safe to say, though, I'd bet on DR/good preventing more instances of damage than DR/evil anyday.

And you'd lose that bet. There are no monsters in the game anywhere that will break either type of DR.

The only types of DR that monsters can successfully break are /Magic and /Pierce, /Slash, /Blunt. There are a handful of exceptions spread around. The Stormreaver uses an adamantine greatsword and will go right through /Adamantine from Stoneskin or Adamantine armor or Warforged DR. Lailat uses anarchic and true chaos on some of her weapons, and those should break /Chaotic DR (but offhand, there's not really any sources of that for players).

3.5 SRD wrote:
A pit fiend’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

By PnP rules, most demons and devils -should- be able to break /Evil because they have overwhelming evilness, and it is supposed to apply to their wielded weapons. But in DDO, it just doesn't happen.

[DynaTheCat]

That's simply a faulty leap in logic. Jusrt because a mob is evil does NOT mean it bypasses DR/Evil. Just like how if you choose Lawful Good for your character you don't automatically break DR/Good.

DR 15/Evil is clearly and undeniably superior to DR 10/Good.

Yeah, I get evil aligned mobs don't necessarily deal evil damage. The problem is... we don't have an actual count of the damage types most mobs deal. (If someone can provide a list or estimate, would be great.) It's probably just normal dmg with no attribute.

It's also kinda faulty to think mobs use equipment at all to deal their damage.... as I believe mordekainen's dys is completely useless against mobs as there is not equipment to disable.

I don't think I'm making a leap of faith though.

Just looking at facts:

LIST of about 1.2k evil aligned monsters in ddo.

LIST of the 20 monsters in ddo that are considered "good" aligned.

LIST of Chaotic aligned monsters.... there are about 48 mobs in ddo that are Chaotic aligned but not evil aligned.

LIST of lawful monsters, there are 27 lawful mobs that are not evil aligned.

1,283 evil aligned mobs vs 95 completely non evil aligned mobs.

Let's say only 7.5% of the 1,283 mobs deal evil damage. That would still be more mobs that deal evil damage than all the 95 non-evil aligned mobs combined.

I'd say I'm making an educated guess... probably there,"should be", statistically more mobs that deal evil damage.

But.. we're getting side tracked here.

Will do a more detailed item build comparison once epic gianthold comes out and all the new info/items/upgrades are settled.

*******

I also heard a rumor that after U17 epic gianthold, the relics in CITW will get another upgrade (tier 4?)

I don't mean the additional aug slot either.

Hm....

[DynaTheCat]

Thank you.
I am aware of and using the other options for resilience.
Unfortunately, I have to wait for the next Mabar to upgrade my ML 16 Cloak. For the time being I maybe try the new DR 15 Cloak.

You can just cast a 10/adamantine stone skin. Or, mineral goggles (in current main build) will pretty much give you a good deal of stone skinning for free (2/day/rest).

If you're wizzy and can't get cloak of night 25 or robe of shadow 25 yet, you should probably go with the new Elite storm reaver's cloak and 2-handed LOB / 1-LOB 1-necro dc build. That should cover you for spell pen/dc/ +8 int and etc. You can also add a litany in because of it.

I think the Ghost waking cloak is really more for sorcs. Albeit, ghostly is nice.

[EllisDee37]

It's also kinda faulty to think mobs use equipment at all to deal their damage.... as I believe mordekainen's dys is completely useless against mobs as there is not equipment to disable.

Mobs use weapons. You can see them. And evil-aligned weapons have that black aura effect that you can also see. Which pretyy much no mobs have.

[DynaTheCat]

Mobs use weapons. You can see them. And evil-aligned weapons have that black aura effect that you can also see. Which pretyy much no mobs have.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Mordenkainen%27s_Disjunction

"This spell serves little actual purpose in Player versus Monster combat, as no Monsters wear equipment. It will still function as a greater dispel without the CL cap, but with a very slow cast time and higher SP cost, you are almost always better off using Greater Dispel Magic. "

It would make sense if monsters did... but mayhap increase load time or something or other; so monsters dont. I don't know.

Wiki's description might be old. Wonder if they changed it.

Yeah, I'm the one who said it'd make sense if evil mobs used evil weapons. So, meh, if a good mob used an evil item... they get a neg lvl or some kinda penalty? Umd? Lol? Not sure.

[EllisDee37]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Mordenkainen%27s_Disjunction

"This spell serves little actual purpose in Player versus Monster combat, as no Monsters wear equipment. It will still function as a greater dispel without the CL cap, but with a very slow cast time and higher SP cost, you are almost always better off using Greater Dispel Magic. "

It would make sense if monsters did... but mayhap increase load time or something or other; so monsters dont. I don't know.

Wiki's description might be old. Wonder if they changed it.

Yeah, I'm the one who said it'd make sense if evil mobs used evil weapons. So, meh, if a good mob used an evil item... they get a neg lvl or some kinda penalty? Umd? Lol? Not sure.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Mobs use weapons. You can see them in the mob's hands as it swings it at you. You can also see weapon effects on those weapons, like for example the Gnoll Firebrands in the desert with their flaming swords. Evil, like flaming, is a visible weapon property.

[Matuse]

I'd say I'm making an educated guess... probably there,"should be", statistically more mobs that deal evil damage.

No, you're not making an educated guess. You've been educated repeatedly, but are unable or unwilling to grasp it. You've posted that list of monsters with alignments twice as if it means anything. It doesn't.

EVIL ALIGNED MONSTER DOES NOT MEAN EVIL ALIGNED DAMAGE.

The two things, with uber-rare exceptions (high ranking demons, devils, celestials) have absolutely no relation to one another. And those uber-rare exceptions don't even apply in DDO! It's a PnP mechanic that never made it over, like cleric domains, or grappling. Or the Fly spell.

Wolves do not inflict "neutral" damage.

Absent their capstone, Paladins do not inflict good damage.

Hobgoblins, Orcs, Skeletons, Wraiths, Cultists, Drow, Kobolds, Dragons, and on and on and on...not a single one of them inflicts evil damage to even the smallest degree. None. Zero. No evil damage. At all! Not even the monsters that are SUPPOSED to be inflicting evil damage are inflicting evil damage. It does not exist as a damage type that monsters are able to use. They do not use it. No form of /Evil DR can be broken by any monsters under any circumstances. Their alignment doesn't matter. Whether they ate a nutritious breakfast including your favorite cereal does not matter. No evil damage. NONE! Not anywhere at any time on any monster on any difficulty at any point in the game.

[DynaTheCat]

No, you're not making an educated guess. You've been educated repeatedly, but are unable or unwilling to grasp it. You've posted that list of monsters with alignments twice as if it means anything. It doesn't.

EVIL ALIGNED MONSTER DOES NOT MEAN EVIL ALIGNED DAMAGE.

Okay.. well you clearly didn't read my whole reply.

The very first thing I point out is: "Yeah, I get evil aligned mobs don't necessarily deal evil damage. The problem is... we don't have an actual count of the damage types most mobs deal. (If someone can provide a list or estimate, would be great.) It's probably just normal dmg with no attribute. "

So, that's the problem. We don't have an actual count of the damage types done by each enemy. If you got an actual count, please share.

My point is: There are a hella lot more evil aligned mobs. If evil mobs can do evil damage, then there is a high chance evil damage is dealt.

I also note that "It's also kinda faulty to think mobs use equipment at all to deal their damage.... as I believe mordekainen's dys is completely useless against mobs as there is not equipment to disable."

This supports your point that evil mobs most likely don't use evil weapons. Mobs probably deal normal dmg with no attribute because they don't seem to be using equipment/weapons that can be evil aligned or deal evil damage. This does not mean they cannot deal evil damage in other ways. Simply, they don't use weapons so the probability they use evil damage lowers.

So... before you criticize me. Please read my replies carefully.

Hobgoblins, Orcs, Skeletons, Wraiths, Cultists, Drow, Kobolds, Dragons, and on and on and on...not a single one of them inflicts evil damage to even the smallest degree. None. Zero. No evil damage. At all! Not even the monsters that are SUPPOSED to be inflicting evil damage are inflicting evil damage. It does not exist as a damage type that monsters are able to use. They do not use it. No form of /Evil DR can be broken by any monsters under any circumstances. Their alignment doesn't matter. Whether they ate a nutritious breakfast including your favorite cereal does not matter. No evil damage. NONE! Not anywhere at any time on any monster on any difficulty at any point in the game.

Okay.... Do you have proof of this? I don't have proof that mobs deal evil damage and I state so. The only solid fact I bring up is there are more evil aligned mobs in ddo... a LOT more; which, can increase the possibility that evil damage is dealt.

You're stating... for a fact... that all mobs in ddo do not deal evil damage.

Then great, please use 15/evil; it is clearly superior if you are right. And, once again, the problem is we don't have an actual damage type count.

So, if I take your word for it, that all 1.2k evil aligned mobs do not deal evil damage..... then I am clearly making a leap of faith right?

Faith in you? Sorry man, but I'd rather believe hard statistics and I'll take my chances that "less mobs" deal good damage.

[DynaTheCat]

I'm not sure what you mean.

Mobs use weapons. You can see them in the mob's hands as it swings it at you. You can also see weapon effects on those weapons, like for example the Gnoll Firebrands in the desert with their flaming swords. Evil, like flaming, is a visible weapon property.

I know they have the animation / model of the weapon. But, I'm pretty sure it's just an empty model. Mobs do not use weapons / equipment. Otherwise, we could mordekainen's dysjunction the weapons/armor and render them unusable.

Mobs pretty much hit with what they hit. Mordekainen's is only good for removing some mob buffs atm.

I was actually hoping with u16 and the new updates that they would make mordekainen's dys somewhat useful.... but all it's good for atm is removing deathward from some mobs.

I've... actually removed the death ward from a mistress once.... but it was from a non-redname one. lol.... definitely don't work in citw.

[EllisDee37]

I know they have the animation / model of the weapon. But, I'm pretty sure it's just an empty model.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Mobs do use weapons, full stop. Trolls swing clubs at you that do bludgeoning damage, which can be blocked with hammerblock. Sahaugin use spears that do piercing damage, which can be blocked with spearblock. How do mob archers work, exactly? Are they going all super-elastic-plastic-man on us and stretching out their fingers really far to pinch us?

Seriously? You really don't think mobs use weapons? I don't know what to say. I really don't. This bizarre stance is absolutely demolishing your credibility from where I sit. This made worse by you seeming to be wholly unaware of the combat log. (When you earlier claimed that "we don't truly know if that skeleton archer or what-not is shooting regular arrows at you or evil tipped arrows." Uh, yes we do truly know. It's in the combat log.)

My point is: There are a hella lot more evil aligned mobs. If evil mobs can do evil damage, then there is a high chance evil damage is dealt.

BUT THEY DON'T!!!!! Good lord it is frustrating to talk with you.

Okay.... Do you have proof of this?

Yes. He posted it, and you apparently ignored it. Here it is again, bold, yellow and in all caps, with the actual proof in italics. Maybe you won't ignore it this time:

MONSTER ARCHERS WHO USE PURE EVIL OR UNHOLY BOWS (DESERT, GIANTHOLD WILDERNESS HAS THESE) -SHOULD- BE ABLE TO BREAK IT. BUT THEY DON'T. I TOOK A KAELTH'S TOUCH (5/EVIL DR) INTO THE DESERT, AND THE SKELETON ARCHERS WERE NOT ABLE TO BYPASS IT.

AT FAR AS I KNOW, 15/EVIL IS UNBREAKABLE BY ANY MONSTERS IN THE GAME.

Kaelth's Touch is a trinket you get from necropolis 3 scarab turn-ins. You can probably purchase the scarabs off the ah and go get one in a matter of minutes. Then test it out. Find ONE SINGLE mob that bypasses it before you ever again say "well, there are 1200 evil mobs in the game..."

So, if I take your word for it, that all 1.2k evil aligned mobs do not deal evil damage..... then I am clearly making a leap of faith right?

You can see it with your own eyes by looking at the combat log, which tells you the type of damage you take from every mob that hits you, in realtime, all the time you play. It will also tell you how much was stopped by your DR, and what type it is. It will say something like "Gnoll firebrand hits you for 10 points of piercing damage after 5 were blocked by DR/Evil."


Also, regarding your bizarre fixation on mordenkainen's disjunction. You clearly don't understand how it works. It doesn't render items unusable. It removes their magical properties. So if you cast it on a firebrand gnoll wielding a flaming sword, the sword will (or at least should) stop flaming and become just a regular sword. It doesn't physically render them unusable.

When the spell description says that mobs don't use equipment, it's referring to accessories. As in, mobs don't wear belts, hats, gloves, etc... All they get is their weapons. Some mobs even get multiple weapons, like for example trolls typically get both clubs and longbows, and you can see them switch between them all the time. (Or whatever kind of bow that is.)

The point of that note is that while players derive much of their dps from gear effects, mobs do not. Their damage bonus from strength is because they just are that strong naturally, and their hit points are just their base hit points. They aren't wearing ogre power +6 belts of greater false life, for example, so there is little point in disjuncting them.

[EllisDee37]

Here, maybe a screenshot will help. If ever "evil mob = evil damage" were to apply, it would be unarmed evil mobs, right? I can't think of a better example than zombies. Really, zombies should deal evil damage, but they can't break dr/evil.

I spent about 5 minutes and ~20k plat buying the 5 scarabs from the ah, combining them in the stone of change, and turning them in for the necro3 trinket. Then I equipped the trinket and hopped into graverobber.

Try it yourself with any mob you like. Post a screenshot of any evil mob bypassing dr/evil. Just find one.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

(Ignore my low saves; trinket is normally my resistance (and devotion) item, and I didn't bother scrolling GH.)

[Nitesco]

Yes. He posted it, and you apparently ignored it. Here it is again, bold, yellow and in all caps, with the actual proof in italics. Maybe you won't ignore it this time:

MONSTER ARCHERS WHO USE PURE EVIL OR UNHOLY BOWS (DESERT, GIANTHOLD WILDERNESS HAS THESE) -SHOULD- BE ABLE TO BREAK IT. BUT THEY DON'T. I TOOK A KAELTH'S TOUCH (5/EVIL DR) INTO THE DESERT, AND THE SKELETON ARCHERS WERE NOT ABLE TO BYPASS IT.

AT FAR AS I KNOW, 15/EVIL IS UNBREAKABLE BY ANY MONSTERS IN THE GAME.

I'm pretty sure one of Queen Lailat's Khopeshes is 'unholy', whether that is considered the same as 'evil' or not, I don't know.

[slimkj]

Not read the whole thread but just in case it's not been mentioned...

I wouldn't consider it for my already geared casters but for some the War Wizard set for the bonus might be worth rejigging the other slots. 10% saved of a 3.5k - 4k SP pool is a lot. Compare that to how many times you'd have to take hits to refill 350-400 SP on your Torc in eE content. These days I could see equipment wearing out before I'd be happily in positive SP regen of that amount in eE.

Of course the WW set also has stuff on it but most people already have that elsewhere. It's just whether it's worth all the regear hassle (no) so it's probably a better bet for most than Torc hunting if they don't already have, say, 50%+ of their gear set done.

[DynaTheCat]

Here, maybe a screenshot will help. If ever "evil mob = evil damage" were to apply, it would be unarmed evil mobs, right? I can't think of a better example than zombies. Really, zombies should deal evil damage, but they can't break dr/evil.

I spent about 5 minutes and ~20k plat buying the 5 scarabs from the ah, combining them in the stone of change, and turning them in for the necro3 trinket. Then I equipped the trinket and hopped into graverobber.

Try it yourself with any mob you like. Post a screenshot of any evil mob bypassing dr/evil. Just find one.

He's dealing blud dmg to you... not evil damage.... so yeah, bludgeon damage will be reduced. I already said evil aligned mobs may not necessarily deal evil damage. I GET that. I already said some evil mob can be dealing regular non-aligned damage. That doesn't mean all mobs are the same.

What mordekainen does is turn the durability of your items to near "zero" durability and remove buffs. Effectively breaking the equipment until you repair and removing buffs from you. If you want mordekainen's cast on you, go into epic elite / epic hard ADQ1 and step on the white orb rolling on the ground in the center chamber. All your gear will have their durability lowered considerably and/or break.

Mordekainen's affects weapons as well. If mobs do use weapons, I have yet to disable a mob's weapons completely by casting mordekainen's on them.

If I read you right....What you're saying is.... mobs do use actual weapons and possibly use evil weapons. But, evil damage does not affect or bypass DR/evil currently. So... Dr/evil is broken and blocks all damage.

And yeah, I clearly get an evil troll can pick up a good dryad, use her as a club, and smack you for neutral non-aligned bludgeon damage. I get it.

* * * * * *

If DR/evil cannot be bypassed by any mobs.... why didn't the dev just make it "DR 15/-". This would make it a DR that is truly unbreakable by any means.

Why even put the "evil" damage bypass on it?

For pvp? Maybe. Someone hits you with an unholy burst sword and it deals evil damage to you so it bypasses? With all the balancing issues with pvp, I don't think making a DR 15/evil for pvp is a high priority right now. It's possible. But unlikely.

What most likely happened with the "evil bypass" in this DR 15/evil property is.... a justification.

Currently, the highest non blocking item property DR is DR 10/adamantine (stone skin) and DR 10/good (night cloak 24).

In order to justify adding the highest item DR at this time, they attached an evil bypass to it thinking maybe the evil damage is easier to bypass the DR since there are more instances of evil damage among mobs.

Of course.... this is just a guess.

Another possible reason for DR 15/evil is simply because the item is called a "Ghost waking cloak" and they thought it'd be cool to have the protection bypassed by evil sources to go with a possible theme on the cloak; like they put ghostly on it.

Probably not much thought given into the item or properties. Just something to "wow" players.

If this is the case, then probably DR 15/evil will not be bypassed by any mobs, as; there was no consideration for the bypass at all. Just something to tie into the item's theme.

I hope it's not the case, but might be true.

*******

In any case, I will try to find a mob that deals evil damage. I'm... pretty certain upper tier mobs deal evil damage. Low lvl wraiths and etc don't deal such damage. Just the regular bludgeon and pierce and elemental damage etc.

[DynaTheCat]

I'm pretty sure one of Queen Lailat's Khopeshes is 'unholy', whether that is considered the same as 'evil' or not, I don't know.

I'm not sure if they deal evil damage...

on epic she deals mostly sonic damage from what I see..... Around 4-6 attacks of sonic... I will check it out.

Thanks for the input.

[DynaTheCat]

Not read the whole thread but just in case it's not been mentioned...

I wouldn't consider it for my already geared casters but for some the War Wizard set for the bonus might be worth rejigging the other slots. 10% saved of a 3.5k - 4k SP pool is a lot. Compare that to how many times you'd have to take hits to refill 350-400 SP on your Torc in eE content. These days I could see equipment wearing out before I'd be happily in positive SP regen of that amount in eE.

Of course the WW set also has stuff on it but most people already have that elsewhere. It's just whether it's worth all the regear hassle (no) so it's probably a better bet for most than Torc hunting if they don't already have, say, 50%+ of their gear set done.

The problem with war wizards is, you need 3 items to get battle arcanist. You might consider it if you have upgraded spider silk robes to replace war wizards robes, but; you will lose both demonic consort bracers and torc...

It's as you said, war wizard's bracers and amulet have stats that are made redundant by GS (greater elemental power). And the rest of the stats on both bracers and amulet are useless.

spider silk battle arcanist PDK upgrade
War Wizard's Bracers
War Wizard's Amulet

I can see why torc might be useless on EE, but it still procs well.

And demon consort's life shield is pretty nice proc rate too. So....meh.... 10% off your 50 sp spell.. 5sp? I guess it adds up... but with 3k sp... kinda... doesn't matter too much.

Just use...3/day lesser maximize clickie? Ornamented dagger

Ear dweller larva works.... but... not in undead form.

I thought they'd fix it when they fixed drinking tavern sp drinks in undead form... but... nope.

[Tobril]

The problem with war wizards is, you need 3 items to get battle arcanist. You might consider it if you have upgraded spider silk robes to replace war wizards robes, but; you will lose both demonic consort bracers and torc...

It's as you said, war wizard's bracers and amulet have stats that are made redundant by GS (greater elemental power). And the rest of the stats on both bracers and amulet are useless.

spider silk battle arcanist PDK upgrade
War Wizard's Bracers
War Wizard's Amulet

I can see why torc might be useless on EE, but it still procs well.

And demon consort's life shield is pretty nice proc rate too. So....meh.... 10% off your 50 sp spell? I guess it adds up... but with 3k sp... kinda... doesn't matter too much.

War wiz set is a swap for 10% reduction when buffing/dotting/etc and
you can't use a torc for whatever reason.

Pretty sure that is what the other dude was trying to say.

[DynaTheCat]

War wiz set is a swap for 10% reduction when buffing/dotting/etc and
you can't use a torc for whatever reason.

Pretty sure that is what the other dude was trying to say.

ah.... that'd be pretty nice actually... but a hassle swapping 3 items on and off. But, just don't be lazy and hot bar it yap.

[drowrogue]

War wiz set is a swap for 10% reduction when buffing/dotting/etc and
you can't use a torc for whatever reason.

Pretty sure that is what the other dude was trying to say.

Just use the Staff of the Petitioner for buffing...screw equipping 3 items for that!

[DynaTheCat]

yeah... or swap a cromyr green scale... lol....