Is the paladin stigma over?

[psteen1]

Recently, I've been seeing more paladin's joining groups and more favorable forums posts about paladins. Actually I feel like I'm seeing more paladins than fighters or barbs, but maybe that's just cause I actually notice them when they join. Yesterday my guild group for Caught in the Web had 3 paladins, more than any other class.

In any case, can we officially say that the paladin has finally done the 180 turn for fun and usefulness? I know that I love mine and have no desire to TR into something different.

[arminius]

The effect of ED's and twists has been to cover weaknesses--and in the case of paladins that's a lot of covering. The same thing has happened to my Tempest Ranger, who went from doing little damage very fast to actual not-kidding damage damage very fast. I think this is all part of the master Dev plan with the ED's and the relatively Monty Haul loot drops, to help make un-optimized characters more viable.

I bet it's been years since my Paladins lead a kill count, and now I'm suddenly in groups where I'm doubling or trippling the next person. I don't know how it will balance out in the end though, bc pure Barbs still have far greater dps potential when properly played, but it is fun for now.

[Kmnh]

The epic normal and hard difficulties have lowered the barrier to entry. Low DPS melees are seeing a lot more play now, and it's a lot easier to gear them up.

[Ap0k]

I agree with the above posters. Also the chages to ac and to hit have helped paladins and rangers imensely. I know that I had problems to land hits on epic. that has changed dramatically.
But yes, with unyielding sentinel paladins are what they should have been long ago. Though it doesnt mean there is no room for improvement.
Paladins pre ED's are still lame. and grinding destinies that are not sentinel is not much fun either.

In summary. Paladins in unyielding sentinel = fun and viable. all other paladins = still pretty weak imo.

and one more thing. people please start playing your paladin like a barb and stop with this shield nonsense :P

[arminius]

and one more thing. people please start playing your paladin like a barb and stop with this shield nonsense :P

Amen. I think that S+B Paladins can be viable when properly feated, geared, and played but I think that almost all of the people I've seen trying it don't know how. Standing back and watching them trying to hack down even the most basic trash was just sad; it was like 2006-7 all over again.

[Arlathen]

My Paladin14/Monk6 Exalted Angel Quarterstaff build has been received with love in every Pug he's attempted to join.

I have no idea why

Peace out, Paladin brothers.

[Enoach]

Actually thanks to ED's, the S&B DPS got a huge boost in the way of Double Strike, which requires holding a shield for US Destiny.

The other difference is in the PRR, the Tank Paladin can now take and survive hits thanks to the higher PRR rating.

S&B properly feated/built can still put out some very respectable DPS, not insane barbarian, but still high enough that it matters, even on Epic Elite.

While I don't get a lot of benefit from other ED like I get from US, I could actually see Paladin's utilizing LD or Monk Splash builds utilizing GMoF or Non-DOS utilizing FotW.

GMoF, LD, FotW, SD and SC have some low cost Twistable enhancements that can focus a US Destiny build towards DPS or survival as needed.

Of course the Fatesinger ED is the closest we will ever get to a Paladin/Bard. But without a Bard Past Life not really twistable.

[psteen1]

and one more thing. people please start playing your paladin like a barb and stop with this shield nonsense :P

I'm not quite sure if you are serious here or not, but with zeal, feats, and legendary stuff, ending up with around a 30% doublestrike rate is pretty fun. Paladins can now be good S&B toons.

People have wanted to play S&B for years; it still isn't the best configuration in the world, but it is miles better than it used to be!

[Ap0k]

I'm not quite sure if you are serious here or not, but with zeal, feats, and legendary stuff, ending up with around a 30% doublestrike rate is pretty fun. Paladins can now be good S&B toons.

People have wanted to play S&B for years; it still isn't the best configuration in the world, but it is miles better than it used to be!

while all of this is undisputed, how many shield tanks does the standard group need? Im talking about the guys that run epic hard house of rusted blades like this.

[Purkilius]

Enoach is right S&B got a huge boost but you would need more feats IMO maybe paladin 14 (zeal) and fighter 6 might be a good combo for S&B.

[psteen1]

while all of this is undisputed, how many shield tanks does the standard group need? Im talking about the guys that run epic hard house of rusted blades like this.

the only thing anyone needs in this quest is dimension door. You fight one boss who is dead in less then a minute and then you leave.

With all of my shield feats, I'm quite a bit worse using a temporary two handed weapon or going TWF. Might as well stick with what I'm specc'ed for, eh? Anyway, for me, the shield is less about giving the party a tank and more about making myself nigh on indestructible for solo'ing purposes.

[maddmatt70]

Paladin two handed and two weapon got a little boost but they still are behind dps wise when compared to the other classes although adrenaline smites from Fury of the Wild are alot of fun and give paladins a new interesting functionality.

I have to say the paladin S&B is one of the worst played builds in game currently. I have run with some people that played these and I just cringe and not unlike bow rangers back in the old days they are quickly giving paladins a bad name. First an S&B paladin must have at least a 60 intimidate and be willing to use it because then others in the party get sneak damage and you can cluster mobs for the paty to do cleave, whirlwind, momentum swing and lay waste. You can dramatically help out party dps especially if you run with rogues, barbarians, or fighters if you use intimidate.

Second, Whirlwind or Cleave with a momentum swing twists are not optional feats at least one or the other are mandatory feats on all sword and board builds. The dps bump you get from this is not negligible but substantial and dramatically improves your dps and overall build viability. ALL SWORD & BOARD BUILDS MUST HAVE ONE OF THESE FEATS and must be willing to use it and if you select cleave you have to twist in momementum swing.

[psteen1]

Paladin two handed and two weapon got a little boost but they still are behind dps wise when compared to the other classes although adrenaline smites from Fury of the Wild are alot of fun and give paladins a new interesting functionality.

I have to say the paladin S&B is one of the worst played builds in game currently. I have run with some people that played these and I just cringe and not unlike bow rangers back in the old days they are quickly giving paladins a bad name. First an S&B paladin must have at least a 60 intimidate and be willing to use it because then others in the party get sneak damage and you can cluster mobs for the paty to do cleave, whirlwind, momentum swing and lay waste. You can dramatically help out party dps especially if you run with rogues, barbarians, or fighters if you use intimidate.

Second, Whirlwind or Cleave with a momentum swing twists are not optional feats at least one or the other are mandatory feats on all sword and board builds. The dps bump you get from this is not negligible but substantial and dramatically improves your dps and overall build viability. ALL SWORD & BOARD BUILDS MUST HAVE ONE OF THESE FEATS and must be willing to use it and if you select cleave you have to twist in momementum swing.

I would say that S&B got more than a minor boost- it is a huge boost that makes them viable. But of course, they are still way behind in DPS- they should be. (but at least they can kill stuff now without taking 5 years).

Totally agree with your first point. Please intimidate everything, people! That is your job so do it. I was in a group with 3 paladins on my wizzie, and none of them were intimidating anything, meaning that I was drawing way too much aggro.

Only half agree with your second point. Cleave and greater cleave are definitely needed, but sometimes a sword and board wants to run with combat expertise, which means no active power attack, meaning no momentum swing and lay waste. Kind of depends on the situation.

[maddmatt70]

I would say that S&B got more than a minor boost- it is a huge boost that makes them viable. But of course, they are still way behind in DPS- they should be. (but at least they can kill stuff now without taking 5 years).

Agreed which is why I discussed how Two handed and Two Weapon fighting for paladins got a slight bump in comparison to non paladin builds and did not discuss S&B in that passage.

Totally agree with your first point. Please intimidate everything, people! That is your job so do it. I was in a group with 3 paladins on my wizzie, and none of them were intimidating anything, meaning that I was drawing way too much aggro.

It is nto just about defense, but really alot of times it is about offense. If I can get aggro and cluster all the mobs for party cleaves, sneak attacks, etc. I have added to party dps.

Only half agree with your second point. Cleave and greater cleave are definitely needed, but sometimes a sword and board wants to run with combat expertise, which means no active power attack, meaning no momentum swing and lay waste. Kind of depends on the situation.

If a pally always wants to be in CE then they should grab whirlwind. Really though the vast majority of the time a pally should be in power attack with momentum swing if they have cleave it really is only in specific instances such as tanking the matron mother in the house of rusted blades or tanking a raid boss when CE should be on.

[Ape_Man]

Amen. I think that S+B Paladins can be viable when properly feated, geared, and played but I think that almost all of the people I've seen trying it don't know how. Standing back and watching them trying to hack down even the most basic trash was just sad; it was like 2006-7 all over again.

With 30% double-strike they will do more damage S&B.

[arminius]

With 30% double-strike they will do more damage S&B.

Yes, that's what I was saying. It is just that the message seems to have sunk into the masses that "S&B is more viable now" so they are all doing it, but they don't know how to make it effective. It seems they're just equipping a sword and a board and thinking they're done.

[Vormaerin]

If a pally always wants to be in CE then they should grab whirlwind. Really though the vast majority of the time a pally should be in power attack with momentum swing if they have cleave it really is only in specific instances such as tanking the matron mother in the house of rusted blades or tanking a raid boss when CE should be on.

I can see it on a fighter, but how does that work for a paladin, featwise? I was under the impression the viable S&B builds used DAxe or BSw with the THF/ITHF/GTHF line... That's four feats right there.

You need Shield Mastery and Improved Shieldmastery for the doublestrike chance. Everyone needs Improved Crit. That's 7 feats. A human paladin has 9.

Cleave requires Power Attack, so that would work (barely). If you don't take CE.

Whirlwind requires Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack. Not practical.


So do you ditch the THF line for the cleaves or WW? Or is the only way to do it go 18/2 with a fighter splash?

[maddmatt70]

I can see it on a fighter, but how does that work for a paladin, featwise? I was under the impression the viable S&B builds used DAxe or BSw with the THF/ITHF/GTHF line... That's four feats right there.

You need Shield Mastery and Improved Shieldmastery for the doublestrike chance. Everyone needs Improved Crit. That's 7 feats. A human paladin has 9.

Cleave requires Power Attack, so that would work (barely). If you don't take CE.

Whirlwind requires Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack. Not practical.


So do you ditch the THF line for the cleaves or WW? Or is the only way to do it go 18/2 with a fighter splash?

Human pure 20: 1 thf, 3 power attack , 6 ithf, 9 cleave, 12 icrit slash 15 greater thf, 18 shield mastery, 21 improved shield mastery, 24 bastard prof, H bonus toughness or CE or great cleave.

My whirlwind defensive paladin is an 18 paladin 2 monk more of a tank then these builds here and uses the raid rapier.

[Vormaerin]

Human pure 20: 1 thf, 3 power attack , 6 ithf, 9 cleave, 12 icrit slash 15 greater thf, 18 shield mastery, 21 improved shield mastery, 24 bastard prof, H bonus toughness or CE or great cleave.

My whirlwind defensive paladin is an 18 paladin 2 monk more of a tank then these builds here and uses the raid rapier.

Thanks. I suppose you level up 2h and don't really go S&B until epic level then. Makes sense, given that most of the double strike potential is upper levels..

[QuantumFX]

Unfortunately, I think this has more to do with the awesomeness of the Unyielding Sentinel E.D. and less to do with the paladin class itself. Unyielding Sentinel is also an incredible E.D. for animal form druids.