Sorcerer Help

[Tid12]

As for the debate that appears to have surfaced, I don't believe in an absolute best race - it varies according to
your requirements.

I don't neither but people do. Reconstruct with Quicken => better survavibility =! Best race. This is what people thinks with their WF but it's far from truth.

[Dandonk]

I don't neither but people do. Reconstruct with Quicken => better survavibility =! Best race. This is what people thinks with their WF but it's far from truth.

I love my two WF sorcs. But that's due to my personal play style, and it's a fact that my WF sorcs do not have the DC potential that my human sorcs do. There's no way around that.

So which is the better sorcs? No clue The WF sorcs have certain advantages, but the human ones have others.

IMO you just have to find the one you like playing.

[Tid12]

I love my two WF sorcs. But that's due to my personal play style, and it's a fact that my WF sorcs do not have the DC potential that my human sorcs do. There's no way around that.

So which is the better sorcs? No clue The WF sorcs have certain advantages, but the human ones have others.

IMO you just have to find the one you like playing.

This is what I've been trying to say. And it's of course different from what others said (WF = Best race).

I liked my WF sorc as well but I prefer humans.

[HastyPudding]

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

Anyone else reminded of lambchop? I sure am...

You stick to your methods and I'll stick to mine and we can get around to ignoring each other later. It's clearly the ONLY way this is ever going to be resolved and we can both stop writing increasingly longer posts. You shouldn't take this in any way, shape, or form as a sign of surrender, because I'm sure you will anyway. I have better things to do than argue points that have been argued hundreds of times before us, and will sadly still be argued a hundred times after us.

God, I hate the internet sometimes...

[Stormraiser]

The below statements are only my opinions:

Extend - almost useless on a sorc. So many better options
Quicken - Yes, it is a good feat, but is it better then other available feats? Not to me. Finished a WF sorc life with a moderate sprinkling of EE content as well.
Empower - A feat that isn't needed until endgame.

[Loriac]

I don't need web or Ottos. Evocation has two powerful stuns that with good DCs works in EE. A fleshie doesn't need more tools than a WF.

I assume that the two referred to here are electric loop and greater shout. Electric loop is very good, particularly for an air savant. Greater shout is nice, but two things mitigate against it in my view. First, its a fort save which means more mobs will save. Second, its a level 8 spell, which can mean you want other spells instead (polar ray, otto's irresistable are definites at that level, with black dragon bolt, power word stun and incendiary cloud all being quite nice depending on your build goals).

Otto's sphere is meh at best for a sorc imo. Key problem is that it allows spell resistance. As such, I can agree that Otto's sphere is not needed.

Web otoh is superb cc for a sorc. No SR, and it has a duration. It also targets reflex, which is much better than fort. Web is a spell I'd seriously consider getting SF: conj for, if only the sorc wasn't so feat starved.

I understand perfectly In fact, I'm the first to say that WF is better at survavibility with Quicken. Without, no. But a Human has better DCs, no matter what, you will be behind a Human/Drows DC's.

Hatred for WF? Where? It's the people that keep thinking that WF is the master race, not otherwise. If you think WF is the best race, it's your opinion but it certainly isn't true.

Again, the difference in DC's between human and wf is 2 all other things equal (as shown earlier in this thread). 2 DC is nice, but I'd prefer blue bar self healing tbh. DC difference between wf and drow is 2 or 3 depending on itemisation, but the drow is a distant 3rd to either the wf or the human imo. I understand that you believe that extend is a must, but it doesn't affect your functional capabilities and would be dropped by a wf sorc looking to maximise evoc DCs. Therefore its only fair to assume that the wf feat load-out excludes extend if the goal is to maximise evoc DC.

WF is not the best race in general; the recent nerfs to immunities etc have seen to that. However, for a sorc, its fairly clear that the two best choices are human or wf. Which you pick depends on playstyle, but I think its wrong to over-emphasise maximum DCs for a sorc when they are nowhere near as reliant on that as wizards. If you can't say that WF is the best race, its certainly true that you can't claim the same for humans either - the differences between them boil down to which playstyle is more fun for a particular player.

[SirValentine]

You won't because simply you don't have the feats for, easy enough. 1 less because of no Human bonus,

You are absolutely right, non-Humans have ONE less feat than Humans, since Humans get ONE bonus feat!

1 less because of Quicken and you are already short.

No, Human has far fewer feats, because they have to spend 3 feats on the Two-handed Fighting line so they are already short.

Oh, wait, did I just make some random **** up about what feat choices people have to make, when comparing 2 RACES, instead of doing a fair apples-to-apples comparison? Ooops, I guess I did. My bad, ignore that part, please.

And you won't have human adaptability.

Correct, so Warforged are 3 Charisma behind Human.

That's 1-2 DC from Charisma. Plus ONE feat, so 2-3 DC.

[Tid12]

Angry much? Relax

No, Human has far fewer feats, because they have to spend 3 feats on the Two-handed Fighting line so they are already short.

Oh, wait, did I just make some random **** up about what feat choices people have to make, when comparing 2 RACES, instead of doing a fair apples-to-apples comparison? Ooops, I guess I did. My bad, ignore that part, please.

Again, bragging about WF better survavibility and then not taking Quicken is silly. The whole point of WF better at surviving is because they shouldn't make Concentration check thanks to Quicken with Reconstruct. If you aren't taken Quicken on a WF, you are losing half of their value.

Recon without Quicken is SLIGHTLY better than Heal scrolls. Both have to make Concentration checks, scrolls heal for more but with a slightly longer Cooldown.

Correct, so Warforged are 3 Charisma behind Human.

That's 1-2 DC from Charisma. Plus ONE feat, so 2-3 DC.

What I said. They are behind humans with DCs and those DCs are extremly valuable in EE to me. Of course Recon with quicken too. But I prefer the first option

@Loriac: Greater shout is good for those mobs with High ref saves that can't be stunned with E loop. I find it awesome. I have Polar, Ottos and G shout and I never regretted it.

I can agree that Web is really nice but to be effective in EE you would need to have its DC in the upper 40 range. You can't do that, even if I wanted to, AND still get awesome Evo DCs. But yeah, I love web too.

Regarding Extend, I think it's a really valuable feat and I wouldn't drop it even if I had to. I love 5m+ displacement and Haste.

[bigolbear]

Hello, I am Somewhat Experianced with Casters. I am wanting to make a Sorcerer, But I dont know how to Start, What race to Pick. Halfling, Human, Drow, Warforged? What Savant Should I do? And What spells Should I choose?

Races:
-Halfings (I love the Dragonmarks, Help for Soloing)
-Human (The Basic Sorcerer, With some Extra Cha)
-Drow (The Human but a couple points in Cha More)
-Warforged (Self Heals, But Lose alot of Cha)

Savant:
-I know Nothing about What is the One to Pick for Insta Killing?

Spells:
-What Spells should I pick for Insta Killing and Around my Savant?

Mainly Im just Asking what is the Best Option for a Sorcerer? and the Spell/Savant List to go with it.

Thanks

First off ill say ive run 3 sorcs - one with past lives,
1. half elf (which isnt on your list - im guessing because you dont own or dont like them) - air savant.
2. halfling (dragon marked) - non savant.
3. warforge. - fire 1st life, then air, then earth.

Races:
-Halfings (I love the Dragonmarks, Help for Soloing)
-if you like the dragon marks for soloing you will love WF.
-Human (The Basic Sorcerer, With some Extra Cha)
- top tier DC's along with drow
-Drow (The Human but a couple points in Cha More)
- top tier DC's along wiht human. I dislike as I find it hard to justify bonus dex and int on a sorc.
-Warforged (Self Heals, But Lose alot of Cha)
- They make the best sorcs in my opinion, atleast the best nukers. DC wise they are 1 point behind (-2 cha), BUT They are a special breed, they are tight on enhancement points and feats as you need to take the enhancements for repair and generaly the quicken feat.

Savant:
-I know Nothing about What is the One to Pick for Insta Killing?
- First let me state this: savant like any prestige is optional. Yes you will get some cheap SLA's - and they are very very useful. There is realy no savant choice for 'intsta killing'. All the savants choices are about dealing elemental damage.

Spells:
-What Spells should I pick for Insta Killing and Around my Savant?
- most instakill spells are necromancy, some are conjuration and 1 illusion


So from what i understand you want to be a elemental savant (but havent decided which) and you want instakills like a wizard.

Im going to suggest then the folowing build: (note wizard, FVS, cleric and sorc past lives all beneficial)
RACE: human - for the extra feat.
SAVANT: earth - as it works on most enemies - also the decent acid spells are at different lvls to the decent necro spells.
BACKUP ELEMENT: force - because what the acid doesnt work on force will.

STATS: (32 point build)
str:8
dex:8
con:16
int:14
wis:8
cha:18 - all lvl up points here.

feats(by lvl): 8 total +2 epic.
1. toughness, maximise
3. empower
6. SF: conjuration (or arcane prodigy)
9. SF: necromancy
12. GSF: necromancy
15. spell penetration
18. greater spell pentration
21. epic spell pentration
24. epic charisma

Enhancements:
sorc charisma, human charisma, earth savant, full acid and force lines, spell pen, toughness.

Epic destiny:
magister. either necromancy speced or conjuration specced. If conjuration specced then be sure to take the cool down modifier which will effect powerword kill. If necromancy specced take the null magic line - for removing deathward and fom from enemies and as much + to DC and spell pen as you can.


important Spells: (by spell lvl)
1.jump, nightsheild, magic missile!
2. web
3. haste, rage, displacement acid blast(until high lvls when u get it as an SLA)
4. acid rain, DDoor, phantasmal killer (until you get FOD - then replace with stoneskin), force missiles (scrol cast enervate till you get enrgy drain)
5. cloud kill, mind fog.
6. acid fog, disintergrate, flesh to stone, circle of death (scroll cast GH)
7. FOD, disco ball.
8. black dragon bolt, horid wilting, power word stun.
9. power word kill, wail of the banshee, energy drain,


Your primary instakills will be necromancy spells - for which you should ahave a good DC and spell pen. As a backup you have disintergrate which will deal massive damage and often acts as an insta kill.

your CC options will be web and disco, holds and charms if you can find room for them and of course the stone prison effect from earth savant.

You will also have plenty of trash nuking power via acid spells.

VS raid bosses you are going to be a bit week - on the upside no raid boss is imune to acid other than sulomades. So it will be slow but consistant damage.

[Loriac]

Stone fog + web is an effective tactic where raw web dc's aren't sufficient (with the added benefit that the stone fog increases the effectiveness of aoe's that you drop into it). This is easier on a wf however, as you can quicken stone fog's casting time, which is otherwise quite long.

Greater shout is a decent spell, but I wouldn't drop web from a sorc's arsenal.


Edit: re Bigolbear's post

I think in general the advice here is good for creating an instakill sorc, but it highlights the hoops you have to jump through as a sorc to be an effective save or die caster. Also note that boss dps is massively increased by having niac's and eladar's in level 5 slots; as an earth savant your eladar's won't be as good, but can still be useful on cold-immune mobs.

If someone really wants one [a save-or-die sorc], then you almost need 3xPL wizard. This set up will save you 3 feats (the spell pen ones) as well as allowing you to take the wiz past life active feat.

But, and this is the kicker, a 1st life wizard will still be better at save or die than the sorc. On top of this, a wizard will get very nice self healing options even as a fleshie.

If you're willing to invest the effort into a ton of PLs (3xwiz, 3xfvs, 3xsorc is ideal) then you can make a very powerful sorc that can use save or die spells effectively. However, its a case of swimming against the current; you may be better off playing the sorc as the damage dealer turbine seems to intend him to be, rather than shoehorning a wizard playstyle onto the class.

[Kaeper]

God, I hate the internet sometimes...

Yeah, but you know what they say; if you win an argument online you have officially beaten the internet. Then you have to log off forever and move on to the next level. Which I hear is knitting. Seriously

Much better to stick around here with the rest of us non-argument winning internet junkies.

On a vaguely more serious note; nice summarising, re-summarising, re-re-summarising. +1

[Iaga]

I recently read a comment about arcanes ... can't remember the exact context but it went something along the lines of sorcs being strongest for newer players, then wizzies for more experiences players, and ultimately for the pen-ultimate caster, sorc again.

If you're looking to make an insta-kill sorc, check out the thread on Ayspam don't buff - he has the penultimate sorc build which is built to insta-kill. Thread has some solid numbers in it.

It's very effective, but, the number of past lives required is ... daunting.

Bear's build is the right idea but will still lack spell pen for higher end content imo.

[bigolbear]

I recently read a comment about arcanes ... can't remember the exact context but it went something along the lines of sorcs being strongest for newer players, then wizzies for more experiences players, and ultimately for the pen-ultimate caster, sorc again.

If you're looking to make an insta-kill sorc, check out the thread on Ayspam don't buff - he has the penultimate sorc build which is built to insta-kill. Thread has some solid numbers in it.

It's very effective, but, the number of past lives required is ... daunting.

Bear's build is the right idea but will still lack spell pen for higher end content imo.

Unfortunately thats true of all first lifers. A first life sorc with the relevant SF feats and spell pen feats will have the same spell pen as a wizy and 1 less dc i believe - assuming equal gear/race etc.

Speaking of my build.. One 'slight' error i made.

No heighten. **** lack of feats on a sorc! If your serious about the instakills then drop empower- or toughness if your feeling brave for heighten.

[Loriac]

Unfortunately thats true of all first lifers. A first life sorc with the relevant SF feats and spell pen feats will have the same spell pen as a wizy and 1 less dc i believe - assuming equal gear/race etc.

Wiz archmage picks up +2 DC from necro mastery and a further +1 from the capstone, for a total of +3 vs. sorc.

Similarly the PM picks up +1 DC from PM(lich form) and +2 from capstone and the lich form Int bonus, again for a total of +3 DC vs. the sorc.

Wizards also have the feats to comfortably afford spell pen, meaning they can specialise in a second school easily (conj / ench being the usual choices).

Sorc is very difficult to spec up as a save-or-die specialist, not least because specialising in that area has a huge opportunity cost on nuking capability.


Edit: also, picking up on the point that wizzies are good for intermediate levels of TR'ing and equipment -

I think this is difficult to agree with, particularly with the way Turbine keeps moving the goalposts. Spell pen and DC requirements are incredibly high for full effectiveness, reflecting the constant feedback from melee players that they don't like instakills. As such, wizards end up needing to constantly update equipment each update just to stand still. This leads to the current situation where a 1st life wizard can't really compete in EE content regardless of gearing.

Sorcs on the other hand have become more powerful over time as they are typecast into the 'arcane barbarian' role by the devs. With the new ED capabilities, particularly in DI which has nice AOE damage abilities to complement the sorc's existing strong damage output, you end up with a very powerful nuker with fairly low past life investment. The best thing about this from a player's point of view is that the devs seem to understand that blue bar based burst damage from nukes should exceed sustainable melee dps (from say barbarians), so the sorc is unlikely to lose position as top burst damage in the game.

This shift to sorc power is entirely due to the nerfing of instakill over time. Its a shame, because D&D is one of the few rulesets that covers two different combat styles well (steady attrition via hp damage vs. instakill via bypassing saves).

[HastyPudding]

I think this is difficult to agree with, particularly with the way Turbine keeps moving the goalposts. Spell pen and DC requirements are incredibly high for full effectiveness, reflecting the constant feedback from melee players that they don't like instakills. As such, wizards end up needing to constantly update equipment each update just to stand still. This leads to the current situation where a 1st life wizard can't really compete in EE content regardless of gearing..

I'd like to point out that the current end-game right now consists of a series of naturally high SR enemies, such as drow. On non-drow in expansion content, I've noticed that their spell resistance is much easier to penetrate.

I have the feeling that as new expansion content is added we'll realize that our massive spell pen is overkill against all but drow and other high SR creatures. The same can be said for DC's on offensive spells: the majority of the expansion content consists of drow and spiders, which all have very high reflexes and improved evasion.

I'm not saying we should not be speccing to be the absolute best, but when it comes down to it, this expansion has only shown the 'bane' of casters; high SR and high reflexes. DC's aren't going to be supremely important for damage spells on, say, humans or dwarves when compared to drow or spiders. The current end-game content is not an accurate representation of how end-game content really is; it's an extreme that isn't the norm of what will eventually be the majority of high level quests. Just look at other non-drow epics and see how easy it is for casters when compared to epics that have drow.

Example: You wouldn't enter a quest with mindflayers and say 'oh wow they have absurdly high will saves' and then think that all mobs in every other quest around that level have the same saves.

[Iaga]

... If your serious about the instakills then drop empower- or toughness if your feeling brave for heighten.

Don't get me wrong, i'm in the process of levelling up a human sorc with 2x wiz PLs. When i was trying to figure out where to go with him i looked realllllllllllllllllllllllllly long and hard at a build almost exactly the same as the one you listed bear. In the end i decided i couldn't get the spell pen i wanted to really make insta-kills shine

I think if you're going to go down that route on a sorc you either need a gazillion PLs or be selective in what you quests you run.

I'd like to point out that the current end-game right now consists of a series of naturally high SR enemies, such as drow. On non-drow in expansion content, I've noticed that their spell resistance is much easier to penetrate.

Very true. Most people have a natural inclination to build for that top 1% though, even if they don't play it all the time

[Loriac]

I'm not saying we should not be speccing to be the absolute best, but when it comes down to it, this expansion has only shown the 'bane' of casters; high SR and high reflexes. DC's aren't going to be supremely important for damage spells on, say, humans or dwarves when compared to drow or spiders. The current end-game content is not an accurate representation of how end-game content really is; it's an extreme that isn't the norm of what will eventually be the majority of high level quests. Just look at other non-drow epics and see how easy it is for casters when compared to epics that have drow.

This is being overly optimistic in my opinion. In truth, DCs are whatever the devs set them to be. Sure you can create a post-hoc justification for it ("drow are great vs ref saves" etc) but I suspect we won't see new epics with lower DCs at EE level. If the mobs are less able to save, then their CR will go up or some unspecified bonus to saving throws applied to them.

The reason older epics may be easier is that they were created when spell DCs were lower; the translation to EN, EH, EE I suspect was done on a relatively flat basis across the board (e.g. take the old 'epic' difficulty and subtract 10 from CR for EN, 5 for EH, and add 3 for EE or whatever).

The reason I think this is true, is imagine the fallout if not. If a wizard is instakilling everything in sight, suddenly there'll be a huge 'problem' that gets 'solved' by further nerfing of key instakill spells or a revision to the DCs required. This has happened before, with particular long-time melee players on these boards whining about their characters not being highest in kill count anymore.

This is the key reason why I decided to stop building and playing DC based casters (I don't consider sorcs to be DC based in this sense). Turbine is unable to get away from the generic MMO mindset that thinks that attriting mob hp to zero is the only valid way to win a fight (rather than instakilling by bypassing a mob's saving throw).

Spell resistance is separate to this of course; mobs will hopefully not be provided SR where they shouldn't per the ruleset, but turbine has a history of introducing arbitrary blanket immunities instead so the net effect is similar.