Sorcerer Help

[Darkstar1996]

Hello, I am Somewhat Experianced with Casters. I am wanting to make a Sorcerer, But I dont know how to Start, What race to Pick. Halfling, Human, Drow, Warforged? What Savant Should I do? And What spells Should I choose?

Races:
-Halfings (I love the Dragonmarks, Help for Soloing)
-Human (The Basic Sorcerer, With some Extra Cha)
-Drow (The Human but a couple points in Cha More)
-Warforged (Self Heals, But Lose alot of Cha)

Savant:
-I know Nothing about What is the One to Pick for Insta Killing?

Spells:
-What Spells should I pick for Insta Killing and Around my Savant?

Mainly Im just Asking what is the Best Option for a Sorcerer? and the Spell/Savant List to go with it.

Thanks

[HastyPudding]

----------Race:
Warforged. Hands down the simplest, most effective, and easiest way to play a sorcerer; you only lose 1 DC and an unnoticeable amount of SP in exchange for instant self-healing and higher survivability.

I don't see halflings as a good race for sorcerers; sure the dragonmarks are nice, but sorcerers are feat-starved, and don't have room for them. That and the -2 to str will be painful if you get hit with ray of enfeeblement/exhaustion and your carrying weight will suffer greatly, and the last thing you need as a sorcerer is to be slow and helpless. Only pick human or drow if you are an expert at scroll-wand-healing, but both are good choices.

----------Savants (in a nutshell):
Fire (balanced array of spells)
- Pros - wide range of spells with good damage / excellent AoE capability
- Cons - more mobs are immune to fire damage than any other element / not particularly strong VS bosses

Earth (damage over time with a constant presence)
- Pros - superior AoE capability / superior survivability / few mobs are immune to acid damage
- Cons - not much in the way of nuking power / damage is rarely instant and relies on damage over time

Water (nuking damage)
- Pros - superior single-target damage / good AoE capabilities / strong VS bosses
- Cons - useless VS skeletons / persistent AoE isn't as strong as fire or earth

Air (higher difficulty but better rewards for putting more effort)
- Pros - powerful AoE damage / very easy to spam spells for fast killing / strong VS bosses
- Cons - completely reliant on evocation DC's for damage / no persistent AoE

----------Spells:
As far as instant death spells, sorcerers are moderately okay with just Finger of Death and Wail of the Banshee. You won't have the necromancy DC's of a wizard, however, and your main offense is your high damage output.

Must-have fire spells:
- Firewall, Fireball, Burning Blood
Fire spells worth mentioning:
- Delayed-Cast Fireball, Meteor Swarm

Must-have earth spells:
- Acid Rain, Acid Blast, Black Dragon Bolt
Earth spells worth mentioning:
- Cloudkill, Meteor Swarm, Burning Blood

Must-have water spells:
- Polar Ray, Niac's Cold Ray, Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, Niac's Biting Cold
Water spells worth mentioning:
- Ice Storm, Cone of Cold, Snowball Swarm

Must-have air spells:
- Chain Lightning, Ball Lightning, Eladar's Electric Surge, Electric Loop
Air spells worth mentioning:
- Lightning Bolt, Cyclonic Blast, Shocking Grasp

As a sorcerer, your first job is to deal damage, but don't neglect your CC. Web, Power Word: Stun, Otto's Irresistible Dance, and Prismatic Spray are your friends. Also worth mentioning: Disintegrate, Power Word: Kill, Energy Drain, and Banishment.

[Darkstar1996]

Im Gunna be a Water Savant then, Should I do Multiple Savants? and My Inherit Spells should I grab the Normal Spell too? and What Repair Spell should I grab?

Thanks

[HastyPudding]

Im Gunna be a Water Savant then, Should I do Multiple Savants? and My Inherit Spells should I grab the Normal Spell too? and What Repair Spell should I grab?

Thanks

Be careful with water savant in the early content. There are A LOT of skeletons in low-mid level quests, making being a water savant difficult. Make sure you have a secondary element to help you against them. Late-game, the water savant shines with massive damage via polar ray.

You can only pick one prestige enhancement at this point in time. Pick either earth or air spells as your secondary element if you plan to stay water savant throughout the game. If not, go with whatever savant you wish, then find a blood of dragons potion and respec your enhancements and spells to change your prestige.

As to your inherent SLA's, that's up to you whether to get the actual spells. It's nice to be able to have 2 niac's rays going at the same time. Snowball Swarm is going to help when you do the VoN series and against enemies that like to swarm you with numbers (like kobolds, gnolls, and hobgoblins). Frost Lance isn't the best spell, but the SLA is okay at level 18, if just for something to spam.

Repair spells are whatever you feel comfortable with. Repair Moderate is usually enough to last you until you can get Reconstruct at level 14. Find a reconstruction item to boost the spellpower of your repair spells and you're good to go.

[Tid12]

People should stop spreading wrong info about Warforged.

You don't lose ONLY 1 DC. You lose 1 DC from 16 starting points, then you will lose another 3-4 DC because you won't be able to fit, in your feat list, SF: Evo, GSF: Evo, ESF: Evo and Greater Charisma. Then you won't have Human adaptability.

So yeah, you will be 3-4 DC behind a human with a WF but with better self heals.

[knockcocker]

People should stop spreading wrong info about Warforged.

You don't lose ONLY 1 DC. You lose 1 DC from 16 starting points, then you will lose another 3-4 DC because you won't be able to fit, in your feat list, SF: Evo, GSF: Evo, ESF: Evo and Greater Charisma. Then you won't have Human adaptability.

So yeah, you will be 3-4 DC behind a human with a WF but with better self heals.

People shouldn't assume that you don't have all of these as a wf

[Tid12]

People shouldn't assume that you don't have all of these as a wf

You won't because simply you don't have the feats for, easy enough. 1 less because of no Human bonus, 1 less because of Quicken and you are already short. And you won't have human adaptability.

[knockcocker]

You won't because simply you don't have the feats for, easy enough. 1 less because of no Human bonus, 1 less because of Quicken and you are already short. And you won't have human adaptability.

I do have all of those feats.

[SirValentine]

You won't because simply you don't have the feats for, easy enough. 1 less because of no Human bonus,

You are absolutely right, non-Humans have ONE less feat than Humans, since Humans get ONE bonus feat!

1 less because of Quicken and you are already short.

No, Human has far fewer feats, because they have to spend 3 feats on the Two-handed Fighting line so they are already short.

Oh, wait, did I just make some random **** up about what feat choices people have to make, when comparing 2 RACES, instead of doing a fair apples-to-apples comparison? Ooops, I guess I did. My bad, ignore that part, please.

And you won't have human adaptability.

Correct, so Warforged are 3 Charisma behind Human.

That's 1-2 DC from Charisma. Plus ONE feat, so 2-3 DC.

[Tid12]

Angry much? Relax

No, Human has far fewer feats, because they have to spend 3 feats on the Two-handed Fighting line so they are already short.

Oh, wait, did I just make some random **** up about what feat choices people have to make, when comparing 2 RACES, instead of doing a fair apples-to-apples comparison? Ooops, I guess I did. My bad, ignore that part, please.

Again, bragging about WF better survavibility and then not taking Quicken is silly. The whole point of WF better at surviving is because they shouldn't make Concentration check thanks to Quicken with Reconstruct. If you aren't taken Quicken on a WF, you are losing half of their value.

Recon without Quicken is SLIGHTLY better than Heal scrolls. Both have to make Concentration checks, scrolls heal for more but with a slightly longer Cooldown.

Correct, so Warforged are 3 Charisma behind Human.

That's 1-2 DC from Charisma. Plus ONE feat, so 2-3 DC.

What I said. They are behind humans with DCs and those DCs are extremly valuable in EE to me. Of course Recon with quicken too. But I prefer the first option

@Loriac: Greater shout is good for those mobs with High ref saves that can't be stunned with E loop. I find it awesome. I have Polar, Ottos and G shout and I never regretted it.

I can agree that Web is really nice but to be effective in EE you would need to have its DC in the upper 40 range. You can't do that, even if I wanted to, AND still get awesome Evo DCs. But yeah, I love web too.

Regarding Extend, I think it's a really valuable feat and I wouldn't drop it even if I had to. I love 5m+ displacement and Haste.

[Loriac]

People should stop spreading wrong info about Warforged.

You don't lose ONLY 1 DC. You lose 1 DC from 16 starting points, then you will lose another 3-4 DC because you won't be able to fit, in your feat list, SF: Evo, GSF: Evo, ESF: Evo and Greater Charisma. Then you won't have Human adaptability.

So yeah, you will be 3-4 DC behind a human with a WF but with better self heals.

What?

WF vs human, you lose 2 feats (quicken, human bonus feat).

As a pure wf sorc, you'd probably want: max, emp, heighten, quicken, toughness, sf:evoc, gsf:evoc, esf:evoc

Thats 8 feats out of 9 possible at level 24.

If the human sorc takes greater charisma as their bonus feat, they will be exactly 2 dc ahead of the wf. They will also have one additional feat vs. the wf (as they won't necessarily take quicken), but the key point is that both wf and human have effectively max'd their evoc dc's (featwise) already at this point.

Its also worth bearing in mind that a pure evoc focused sorc doesn't rely totally on dc's. Single target spells are fine without having max'd dc's. Where the human sorc benefits is in being able to buy spell penetration feats. If you're looking to play your sorc as a save-or-die hybrid, then sure human is likely better. However, a save-or-die sorc needs to invest in the sf: necro line too so even the human probably would want 3xPL wizard + 3xPL fvs to get the necessary spell pen without eating into his feat budget.

TL;DR version:

For a pure damage focused evoker, wf loses at most 2dc, and dc isn't even that necessary in the first place.

If you're making a save-or-die capable sorc human is better, but a wizard is much much better at that type of spellcasting.

[Tid12]

What?

WF vs human, you lose 2 feats (quicken, human bonus feat).

As a pure wf sorc, you'd probably want: max, emp, heighten, quicken, toughness, sf:evoc, gsf:evoc, esf:evoc

Thats 8 feats out of 9 possible at level 24.

If the human sorc takes greater charisma as their bonus feat, they will be exactly 2 dc ahead of the wf. They will also have one additional feat vs. the wf (as they won't necessarily take quicken), but the key point is that both wf and human have effectively max'd their evoc dc's (featwise) already at this point.

Its also worth bearing in mind that a pure evoc focused sorc doesn't rely totally on dc's. Single target spells are fine without having max'd dc's. Where the human sorc benefits is in being able to buy spell penetration feats. If you're looking to play your sorc as a save-or-die hybrid, then sure human is likely better. However, a save-or-die sorc needs to invest in the sf: necro line too so even the human probably would want 3xPL wizard + 3xPL fvs to get the necessary spell pen without eating into his feat budget.

TL;DR version:

For a pure damage focused evoker, wf loses at most 2dc, and dc isn't even that necessary in the first place.

If you're making a save-or-die capable sorc human is better, but a wizard is much much better at that type of spellcasting.

You are missing: Greater cha that you could fit at 24, Extend (essential imho) and the Wizzie PL (that you can't fit anywhere now) so no, you are not maxing your DC potential with a WF, even if you could fit ESF: Evocation. Now see why the lack of feats makes you more than 2 points behind a human?

A pure evoc focused sorc doesn't rely totally on DC's? If you use just polar ray or Frost lance, sure. But as a sorc you should know that as soon as you approach a room, you start casting AOE spells and THEN you will hit the 1-2 mobs that are still alive with single target spells.

In Epic Elite, 3 points (minimum) of DCs behind are HUGE, specially if you haven't 3x Sorc PL.

Also, why a Sorc needs to invest into the Necro line? I'm not really sure I understood correctly but I haven't on my Sorc and I can solo most of the quests in EE anyway. It's in no way, shape or form to invest into Necromancy as a Sorc, specially because if you want to use it in EE, you NEED, MUST HAVE 6 (S I X) Past lives (without counting the 3x Sorc PLs that you will WANT anyway) and it's not worth it imho.

[Loriac]

You are missing: Greater cha that you could fit at 24, Extend (essential imho) and the Wizzie PL (that you can't fit anywhere now) so no, you are not maxing your DC potential with a WF, even if you could fit ESF: Evocation. Now see why the lack of feats makes you more than 2 points behind a human?

A pure evoc focused sorc doesn't rely totally on DC's? If you use just polar ray or Frost lance, sure. But as a sorc you should know that as soon as you approach a room, you start casting AOE spells and THEN you will hit the 1-2 mobs that are still alive with single target spells.

In Epic Elite, 3 points (minimum) of DCs behind are HUGE, specially if you haven't 3x Sorc PL.

Also, why a Sorc needs to invest into the Necro line? I'm not really sure I understood correctly but I haven't on my Sorc and I can solo most of the quests in EE anyway. It's in no way, shape or form to invest into Necromancy as a Sorc, specially because if you want to use it in EE, you NEED, MUST HAVE 6 (S I X) Past lives (without counting the 3x Sorc PLs that you will WANT anyway) and it's not worth it imho.

Extend is arguable either way. I'd see it as essential on a melee oriented sorc, but not so much on a pure caster build.

I agree that I didn't factor in the wizard PL. On a wf, I would put that into the 9th feat slot.

A sorc doesn't need to invest in the necro line, but once you've maxed out evoc dc's theres not much else to invest in (perhaps sf: conj for a slightly better web instead of sf: necro for fod). My point on the necro line was intended to be similar to what you said, i.e. a sorc can't really specialise in save or die spells without a lot of PL investment, and even then will still lack the feats to do it justice. So in other words, provided the wf can match the evoc increasing feats the human is taking, the difference is essentially the +3 cha the human has (+4 cha factoring in Great Charisma, i.e. a dc difference of 2).

Basically, what this boils down to is that the human is 2 dc's ahead and can afford extend as well. However, to be completely fair, the wf has quicken in his set up, which is useful for a spells like solid fog. Extend pre-nerf was a must have, but now it doesn't affect any offensive spells and so is purely a convenience.

[HastyPudding]

Strange people....

1. Never heard somebody say that extend was essential on a sorcerer. By end-game, even wizards barely need to use it unless they want a 5 minute haste. It's a convenience feat to save SP for those who can't micromanage; something of which the sorcerer has NO trouble with. Pre-nerf, extend was useful. Now, it's not. Period. Leave extend to the clerics, wizards, and spellsingers.

2. Why quicken on a sorcerer? I went through an entire sorcerer life from 1-25 as a WF and never took quicken. You cast so quickly that using reconstruct isn't a problem. My reconstruct was interrupted maybe twice that I can recall in the entire life, and that includes epic elites because of proper placement and aggro management. On a side note, quicken is essential on a WF Archmage, but not a sorcerer. Due to the increased casting speed of sorcerers, quicken is only useful if you're new.

3. So, it's true, you're behind humans by 3 DC's at the very most; don't even mention drow, they're deceptively the same as a human but with less HP. I would say it is, by far, worth going WF for instantaneous and superior self-healing, not to mention extra HP, on top of the other perks (like neg level immunity and underwater action). So, humans make a slightly better air savant, which is reliant on evocation DC's. I played an air savant the last 14-25 levels on my WF sorcerer life, and had little trouble with my DC's.

4. Playing as a WF gives you so much more freedom to move around and kite without being burdened by having to switch to your scrolls and wands. A fleshie sorcerer NEEDS those extra DC's for their web and instant kills, a WF does not. I frequently see fleshie sorcerers die in epic end-game content and I hate healing them (currently a cleric on my multi TR); WF are far more self-sufficient, no contest.


This debate wreaks of somebody who is butt-hurt over the simplistic and superior self-sustainability of WF casters over fleshies. If you're really worried about having wizard DC's on a sorcerer, you're either an extremely anal air savant or you're not playing it right and either need to reroll a wizard or get more past lives.

Dead horse is dead. Let it go gracefully.

[Tid12]

Strange people....

1. Never heard somebody say that extend was essential on a sorcerer. By end-game, even wizards barely need to use it unless they want a 5 minute haste. It's a convenience feat to save SP for those who can't micromanage; something of which the sorcerer has NO trouble with. Pre-nerf, extend was useful. Now, it's not. Period. Leave extend to the clerics, wizards, and spellsingers.

For you. 5m+ displacement and haste are godly good and if you can't understand the value of Extend not my fault.

2. Why quicken on a sorcerer? I went through an entire sorcerer life from 1-25 as a WF and never took quicken. You cast so quickly that using reconstruct isn't a problem. My reconstruct was interrupted maybe twice that I can recall in the entire life, and that includes epic elites because of proper placement and aggro management. On a side note, quicken is essential on a WF Archmage, but not a sorcerer. Due to the increased casting speed of sorcerers, quicken is only useful if you're new.

So, you take Reconstruct for better healing but no quicken? What's the point then? Might as well use Heal scrolls, both of them under Concentration checks that in EE are hard to overcome. With "proper placement and aggro management" I can self Heal just fine and even better than a WF. Reconstruct without Quicken = Pointless. Heal scrolls might have a bit longer cooldown but heal you for more hp.

3. So, it's true, you're behind humans by 3 DC's at the very most; don't even mention drow, they're deceptively the same as a human but with less HP. I would say it is, by far, worth going WF for instantaneous and superior self-healing, not to mention extra HP, on top of the other perks (like neg level immunity and underwater action). So, humans make a slightly better air savant, which is reliant on evocation DC's. I played an air savant the last 14-25 levels on my WF sorcerer life, and had little trouble with my DC's.

Superior self-healing with quicken? Sure. Underwater action and neg level immunity? Nice but who cares?. Cast a Deathward with potions and you are good to go. Last 14-25 levels on your Air with what DCs? I won't believe you that if you had less than 50 DCs you haven't seen MANY evades in EE (if you run quests at EE). Having just done 1 life as WF Air will not make you understand why those 3-4 points of DCs are awesome for EE.

4. Playing as a WF gives you so much more freedom to move around and kite without being burdened by having to switch to your scrolls and wands. A fleshie sorcerer NEEDS those extra DC's for their web and instant kills, a WF does not. I frequently see fleshie sorcerers die in epic end-game content and I hate healing them (currently a cleric on my multi TR); WF are far more self-sufficient, no contest.

A fleshie sorcerer needs those extra DC's? And WF doesn't? Lol. WF might be more self-sufficient (did I say otherwise? No.) but they aren't the best race, end of the story. If you see fleshie sorcerers die it's not a race problem, it's you playing with bad Sorcerers. Doesn't really matter in this discussion.

This debate wreaks of somebody who is butt-hurt over the simplistic and superior self-sustainability of WF casters over fleshies. If you're really worried about having wizard DC's on a sorcerer, you're either an extremely anal air savant or you're not playing it right and either need to reroll a wizard or get more past lives.

Wrong assumptions are wrong. Of course I'm worried about having high DC's on a sorcerer for an Air savant. You should try EE with your low DCs and then tell me how it feels to see always saves.

Wrong infos are wrong. Don't spread them around, strange guy.

[grgurius]

For human vs wf, depends on your play style:

If you are a stationary caster go wf, if you are twichy go human.

[HastyPudding]

For you. 5m+ displacement and haste are godly good and if you can't understand the value of Extend not my fault.



So, you take Reconstruct for better healing but no quicken? What's the point then? Might as well use Heal scrolls, both of them under Concentration checks that in EE are hard to overcome. With "proper placement and aggro management" I can self Heal just fine and even better than a WF. Reconstruct without Quicken = Pointless. Heal scrolls might have a bit longer cooldown but heal you for more hp.



Superior self-healing with quicken? Sure. Underwater action and neg level immunity? Nice but who cares?. Cast a Deathward with potions and you are good to go. Last 14-25 levels on your Air with what DCs? I won't believe you that if you had less than 50 DCs you haven't seen MANY evades in EE (if you run quests at EE). Having just done 1 life as WF Air will not make you understand why those 3-4 points of DCs are awesome for EE.



A fleshie sorcerer needs those extra DC's? And WF doesn't? Lol. WF might be more self-sufficient (did I say otherwise? No.) but they aren't the best race, end of the story. If you see fleshie sorcerers die it's not a race problem, it's you playing with bad Sorcerers. Doesn't really matter in this discussion.



Wrong assumptions are wrong. Of course I'm worried about having high DC's on a sorcerer for an Air savant. You should try EE with your low DCs and then tell me how it feels to see always saves.

Wrong infos are wrong. Don't spread them around, strange guy.

Kay, first I'm gonna say that somebody missed snack time, today, because you sound either really angry or like a real @ss. Can't decide on which. And putting a smiley face next to an insult still makes it an insult, even more so that you needed to put the smiley there in the first place because you're tying to hide behind an emoticon.

1. Extend. I repeat; it's a convenience feat for those who can't watch buff timers or micromanage. Wasted slot for those who pay attention and decide when something is necessary and when it's not. End of discussion.

2. EE is all of a minimal fraction of the entire game's content, and you only ever want to do it once. It's supposed to be freakishly difficult, even heavily specced enchantment players have a hard time landing their super high DC's on EE content. Sorcerers are going to have an even harder time. Unless you're super-pimped out on gear, which only the top 6-7% in the game are (and does not include you or myself), you're going to have a hard time on EE. I did EE on my WF air savant life. It was hard, but I got through it and I never wanted to do it again once it was done. Sometimes you have to rely on spells that don't use a DC, too. DoTs come to mind, and various persistent AoE's of your secondary element, where after the first tic doesn't have a save. Either way, EE is going to be absurdly more difficult for fleshies than WF, because you can't quicken scrolls.

3. Quicken, sure it's useful. Is it 100% necessary? No, because clearly I didn't have trouble with concentration checks. Aggro management, proper placement when casting reconstruct, and watching where you put those AoE's is key to survival on EE. I'm not going to use up a feat slot for 0.9% of the game's content. If you can't accept that as truth, then that's your issue, not mine.

4. Let me clarify the DC issue, because you misinterpreted it. A fleshie sorcerer needs more tools to help them survive. Having those higher DC's offsets their lack of self-healing and reliance on scrolls and wands, which even for the best of players, requires you to manually switch weapons and cast them on yourself and hope you don't get interrupted. A WF sorcerer can dance circles around mobs without the need of web or dancing sphere (although it's still useful, obviously, just not always needed). A fleshie relies on it much more because they don't have an instant heal button.


What this boils down to is a difference of opinion and tactics. Both work as intended. That doesn't mean you need to refute what you don't understand, either.

Differences in opinions don't make yours right, strange guy. See? I can use ad hominem, too.

[Lonnbeimnech]

3. Quicken, sure it's useful. Is it 100% necessary? No, because clearly I didn't have trouble with concentration checks. Aggro management, proper placement when casting reconstruct, and watching where you put those AoE's is key to survival on EE. I'm not going to use up a feat slot for 0.9% of the game's content. If you can't accept that as truth, then that's your issue, not mine.

If you can make a concentration check in EE, then couldn't a human land heal scrolls in the same situation?

I thought the whole 'wf are better casters' was because of no fail quickened recons. If you have to jump out of the way and time it with incomming damage, that's no different from what a human does.

[HastyPudding]

If you can make a concentration check in EE, then couldn't a human land heal scrolls in the same situation?

I thought the whole 'wf are better casters' was because of no fail quickened recons. If you have to jump out of the way and time it with incomming damage, that's no different from what a human does.

First off, nobody said WF were better. They just have better survivability.

I didn't say quicken was useless, either. By all means, take quicken if you wish. For me, I didn't find it essential.

Having to switch weapons to scrolls takes time. You also don't need to buy scrolls or wands, or wait until you have the UMD to use them effectively, nor spend time making sure you can heal yourself for a decent amount or spend your already tight AP budget on wand enhancements. If you're great at scroll healing, do what's best for you. There's more than one way to skin a cat.


This thread has been hijacked enough from its original purpose. People constantly feel the need to spread their hatred for WF. It's a debate that will never end. Everything we've said here has been said a dozen times before. Leave the dead horse alone.

[Tid12]

Kay, first I'm gonna say that somebody missed snack time, today, because you sound either really angry or like a real @ss. Can't decide on which. And putting a smiley face next to an insult still makes it an insult, even more so that you needed to put the smiley there in the first place because you're tying to hide behind an emoticon.

So you can say "Strange people" obviously referred to me (I'm the only one arguing that WF are the best race so saying otherwise really is silly) and I can't answer "Strange guy" with a smile to underline that joking tone? Guess who is either angry or like a real @ss

1. Extend. I repeat; it's a convenience feat for those who can't watch buff timers or micromanage. Wasted slot for those who pay attention and decide when something is necessary and when it's not. End of discussion.

Points of View, it is to me.

2. EE is all of a minimal fraction of the entire game's content, and you only ever want to do it once. It's supposed to be freakishly difficult, even heavily specced enchantment players have a hard time landing their super high DC's on EE content. Sorcerers are going to have an even harder time. Unless you're super-pimped out on gear, which only the top 6-7% in the game are (and does not include you or myself), you're going to have a hard time on EE. I did EE on my WF air savant life. It was hard, but I got through it and I never wanted to do it again once it was done. Sometimes you have to rely on spells that don't use a DC, too. DoTs come to mind, and various persistent AoE's of your secondary element, where after the first tic doesn't have a save. Either way, EE is going to be absurdly more difficult for fleshies than WF, because you can't quicken scrolls.

Building a char for a mediocre difficulty (EH) isn't what I call "building a char". If you wanna spend all of your time doing a difficulty that is easier than Heroic Elite then you are welcome to do so but it's pointless. EE is not something you want to do it once. I do EE quests everyday, they drop awesome stuff, they drop +4 tomes, they drop better gear. If you think EE is "once and done" then that is again your problem but suggesting to someone to build for EH isn't something I'd do.

Why am I going to have more hard times in EE "because I can't quicken scrolls" ? You said you haven't quicken so it's the same for me and you. Actually, it's even better for me. With those 3 extra DCs I can stun mobs with E loop and G shout that you can't do.

3. Quicken, sure it's useful. Is it 100% necessary? No, because clearly I didn't have trouble with concentration checks. Aggro management, proper placement when casting reconstruct, and watching where you put those AoE's is key to survival on EE. I'm not going to use up a feat slot for 0.9% of the game's content. If you can't accept that as truth, then that's your issue, not mine.

Imho, a WF without quicken is pointless.

4. Let me clarify the DC issue, because you misinterpreted it. A fleshie sorcerer needs more tools to help them survive. Having those higher DC's offsets their lack of self-healing and reliance on scrolls and wands, which even for the best of players, requires you to manually switch weapons and cast them on yourself and hope you don't get interrupted. A WF sorcerer can dance circles around mobs without the need of web or dancing sphere (although it's still useful, obviously, just not always needed). A fleshie relies on it much more because they don't have an instant heal button.

I don't need web or Ottos. Evocation has two powerful stuns that with good DCs works in EE. A fleshie doesn't need more tools than a WF.

What this boils down to is a difference of opinion and tactics. Both work as intended. That doesn't mean you need to refute what you don't understand, either.

I understand perfectly In fact, I'm the first to say that WF is better at survavibility with Quicken. Without, no. But a Human has better DCs, no matter what, you will be behind a Human/Drows DC's.

This thread has been hijacked enough from its original purpose. People constantly feel the need to spread their hatred for WF. It's a debate that will never end. Everything we've said here has been said a dozen times before. Leave the dead horse alone.

Hatred for WF? Where? It's the people that keep thinking that WF is the master race, not otherwise. If you think WF is the best race, it's your opinion but it certainly isn't true.