A question of Prestige

[Kaggun]

I'm working my way up in levels, and I'm looking at my options between Pale Master and Archmage. Each seems... a bit odd. Archmage has all sorts of "here's a whole bunch of spell points!" enhancements and a lot of "this here spell now costs next to nothing, but you lose a whole bunch of spell points!" stuff. Pale Master, on the other hand, seems to work by changing into an undead form and using HP for their special spells. Each form seems specialized for a certain role (zombie for when you're facing enemies who might be immune or highly resistant to magic, vampire for charming/cc, lich for blowing stuff up, and wraith I have no idea).

So, on to the questions; will going Archmage result in me being so specialized into certain spells to the point where I may as well have rolled a sorc? Or do the enhancements that take/give spell points balance out so that I don't have to cast the spells I specialize in all the time, just when I need my spell points to last?

Will selecting Pale Master make me a burden on parties? Based on the way specials work, I think my only options of getting healed are either dropping form and spamming a Repair Damage spell (yay warforged! ) thus making the playstyle be about dealing damage half the time and healing myself the other half, and of course rest shrines which I'm guessing aren't part of an average raid boss encounter. Is groupwide damage light enough that this kind of risky business isn't going to get me killed too often?

Sorry if this is all discussed elsewhere, but I suck at searching.

[Lancelot01]

well im been playing a pm for quite a while so i just tell u that pm can self heal w/ death aura and negative energy burst pretty well, so u dont need to drop and re-enter form(which would cost alot of spell point doing so) and there some divine spells that heal u in undead form as well, inflict spells, best being the spell harm so some cleric( n fvs) can heal u in emergency, but u can self heal just fine. Being pm also mean u focusing on insta-death spell (prolly), such as finger of death, circle of death, wail, among other stuff, and maybe CC if u chose so as well. since u are warforged u can chose either am and pm and still can heal urself fine w/ repair spell(unless u in pm form but still in quest w/ lot of light damage, just dont enter form if u want). And chose watever u want to focus on like CC, insta-death etc. Wish i can give more info or some number to compare but i suck at that and giving advice so this is the best i can do, and searching would be good for u even if take a little time so gl w/ being a wizard

[HastyPudding]

Archmagi are deceptively powerful, and most new players don't understand that this can be a very rewarding prestige. You might balk at spending your bonus SP on a spell-like ability (SLA) but, depending on which school you intend to focus on, these SLA's are invaluable and will actually save you SP in the long run. In general, the entire point of the archmage is increasing your DC's in your chosen school (and maybe a secondary) and having spell-like abilities to save you SP. The SLA's have a slightly longer cooldown, but their low, efficient SP cost vastly outweighs this.

For example, focusing on evocation spells, an archmage can take the spell magic missile as an SLA, and it only costs 1 SP to use, rather than the original 4. This might not seem like much, but that magic missile SLA can be used with metamagic. An empowered, maximized, enlarged, quickened magic missile is 64 SP. But, use those same metamagics on the SLA and it still only costs 1 SP. This allows you to spam your SLA's whenever they are off cooldown with minimal cost for greater effect.

The most common school of spells (as in 80% of archmagi) is enchantment. An enchantment-focused archmage is a very strong choice, considering enchantment always requires good DC's to work perfectly. You don't 'win' by nuking, you win by disabling creatures so that your party can destroy them; an enchantment archmage is about damage mitigation, not damaging enemies. A well-geared and prepared 'enchanter' can make difficult quests absurdly easy. Imagine spamming a heightened and quickened hold person SLA for only 6 SP rather than spending an absurdly high amount to use the normal spell, yet still get the same effect. if you want to damage something, toss a firewall or acid rain spell on those helpless held/webed mobs; your CC keeps them in place so they can't escape your AoE spells.

The only thing I can't stress enough going archmage is race. A human or drow might be nice to have (for the extra feat or +1 to your DC's) but they have to rely on wands and scrolls, meaning you need to have high UMD to use these items and the ability to do it quickly in an emergency or you're going to be a serious burden on your healers. If you want to go archmage, a warforged is the way to go, in my opinion. The ease of having instant self-repair outweighs having an extra feat or +1 to your DC's. A fleshie archmage is fine, but a warforged archmage has a much higher survivability.

As for pale masters, they are the most self-sufficient caster prestige. All you need to do in an undead form is use the lesser death aura or death aura spells; this will gradually heal you, because you are healed by negative energy, as well as damage nearby enemies. There is also negative energy burst, which is basically your 'oh sh*t I'm going to die' spell; it heals you for a good amount and also damages nearby enemies. Being a pale master saves your healer's SP, because they don't have to look after you, although smart clerics (but not most FVS) will have the harm spell, just in case you need emergency healing.

You also have to remember that a pale master isn't about 'dealing damage' but about instantly killing mobs, providing backup crowd control, and giving negative levels to more difficult non-boss mobs. If you want to nuke constantly, play a sorcerer. Not that wizards can't deal nice damage, but they are better suited to crowd control and death spells.

You ask about taking damage as a wizard, but you answered your own question. Wizards are excellent at avoiding damage. They have spells to reduce damage taken from elemental magic, a stoneskin spell to reduce physical damage taken, and all sort of spells for crowd control. Just remember; a dead mob doesn't hurt you, and neither does a mob that is incapacitated by your magic.

[Kaggun]

Thanks for the replies guys! Nice to know PM is self sufficient and can heal itself in form, and that AM doesn't eat up all that extra SP so I can still be versatile. Interesting to know about the cost of SLA staying the same when empowered via metamagic feats, I think I'll try AM first. Also, I do love Enchantment so I'm glad it's a strong choice later on as well.

[Kinerd]

The most common school of spells (as in 80% of archmagi) is enchantment. An enchantment-focused archmage is a very strong choice, considering enchantment always requires good DC's to work perfectly.

I very strongly disagree with both of these points. Necro works on everything Enchant works on that I can currently think of, and a dead enemy is very much preferable to a CCed enemy. Enchant used to be very popular, but is very much out of favor for this and other reasons.

The only thing I can't stress enough going archmage is race. A human or drow might be nice to have (for the extra feat or +1 to your DC's) but they have to rely on wands and scrolls, meaning you need to have high UMD to use these items and the ability to do it quickly in an emergency or you're going to be a serious burden on your healers. If you want to go archmage, a warforged is the way to go, in my opinion. The ease of having instant self-repair outweighs having an extra feat or +1 to your DC's.

This I agree with 100%.

The overall way I look at it is this:
1. Are you fleshy? Go PM.
2. If not fleshy, either is fine.

If you do go AM:
1. Take secondary Conj for SLA Web.
2. SLA Hypno is okay.
3. Stay far far away from any other SLA.

[HastyPudding]

I very strongly disagree with both of these points. Necro works on everything Enchant works on that I can currently think of, and a dead enemy is very much preferable to a CCed enemy. Enchant used to be very popular, but is very much out of favor for this and other reasons.This I agree with 100%.

The overall way I look at it is this:
1. Are you fleshy? Go PM.
2. If not fleshy, either is fine.

If you do go AM:
1. Take secondary Conj for SLA Web.
2. SLA Hypno is okay.
3. Stay far far away from any other SLA.

Odd, considering I seem to see many, many more archmagi at end-game right now than pale masters. Enchantment is still the way to go for CC, and there are more mobs that use death ward now, than before. I don't hear people saying 'more wail', but I always hear 'dancing ball please'. The SLA's for necromancy and evocation just aren't as useful as the enchantment, or even illusion ones, either.

Hypno SLA is nice, but Hold Person is awesome. It's a fairly short cooldown and only costs 6 SP, and it makes the mob helpless, taking more damage from melee attacks by my party. I found it indispensable from the time I got it until I TR'd. Resistible Dance is highly underrated, as unlike Hold Person, this works on all enemy types (except those immune to enchantment, of course, like scorpions). I also found it worked more often on high will-save mobs like casters and clerics than Hold Person and isn't affected by FoM. I would charge into the fray, toss down a web SLA, then proceed to dance and hold every mob in sight, then launch an AoE or make sure my party is hasted and raged.

It's also about party dynamics and difficulty. On EE, enchantment SLA's (and enchantment in general) are better than FoD and wail, in my opinion, due to their low cost and ability to make enemies vulnerable to dps classes. Using 50+ SP on a failed FoD is a let down, where 3-6 SP isn't a big waste if it fails.

So, I can CC an entire group of enemies with a few low SP enchantment SLA's, or I can use wail and Fod, and use 8-10x more SP in a fight and hope I don't fail my DC's. It's a matter of flavor. Both work exceptionally well, but I think this current obsession with necromancy is boorish and so 1980's.

[donfilibuster]

Indeed both are powerful and both are very different, which can make it a hard choice.
PM starts weaker but grows stronger, so AM is often the better choice at first.
Later on the extra sp from AM is not too critical and PM indeed saves a lot of sp by using the aura and SLAs.

To start learning them AM is a good first choice, since PM can be tricky at times and has more to learn.
Once you get the hang of them you can indeed play WF PM or a fleshy AM as desired, but not recommended for a first try.

[Kinerd]

Odd, considering I seem to see many, many more archmagi at end-game right now than pale masters. Enchantment is still the way to go for CC, and there are more mobs that use death ward now, than before. I don't hear people saying 'more wail', but I always hear 'dancing ball please'.

I agree that I don't hear a lot of people ask "make my kill count lower", but rather "make my kill count higher". I disagree that this is indicative of a fundamental mechanical truth, and further that arcanes have in general responded to these pleas. Obviously we can have different observations of the different people we run with, but I do feel that Necro is the flavor du jour.

The SLA's for necromancy and evocation just aren't as useful as the enchantment, or even illusion ones, either.

Hypno SLA is nice, but Hold Person is awesome. It's a fairly short cooldown and only costs 6 SP, and it makes the mob helpless, taking more damage from melee attacks by my party. I found it indispensable from the time I got it until I TR'd. Resistible Dance is highly underrated, as unlike Hold Person, this works on all enemy types (except those immune to enchantment, of course, like scorpions). I also found it worked more often on high will-save mobs like casters and clerics than Hold Person and isn't affected by FoM. I would charge into the fray, toss down a web SLA, then proceed to dance and hold every mob in sight, then launch an AoE or make sure my party is hasted and raged.

It's also about party dynamics and difficulty. On EE, enchantment SLA's (and enchantment in general) are better than FoD and wail, in my opinion, due to their low cost and ability to make enemies vulnerable to dps classes. Using 50+ SP on a failed FoD is a let down, where 3-6 SP isn't a big waste if it fails.

So, I can CC an entire group of enemies with a few low SP enchantment SLA's, or I can use wail and Fod, and use 8-10x more SP in a fight and hope I don't fail my DC's. It's a matter of flavor. Both work exceptionally well, but I think this current obsession with necromancy is boorish and so 1980's.

Even with the damage, I agree FoD is either work or outright fail in endgame content. However, as a single target spell you can save it for those targets where it is most effective, so a somewhat lower save is not as troubling.

More importantly, I feel that this is somewhat missing the point, so I will try to clarify:
1. You are just as capable of throwing SLA Web as a Necro/Conj.
2. If you can bypass the SR needed to dance/hold you can do likewise with a kill spell.
3. Yes Fort saves are higher on some mobs than Will saves, but the reverse is also true, and usually (but not always, friggin' Gnolls) the most dangerous enemies are casters with higher Will than Fort.
4. And the crucial point: a dance or hold only lasts so long. Death is forever.

I certainly agree that if I were going to buy non-Web SLAs I would rather have R-Dance than Command Undead, but when doing so costs me 2 Necro DC and at least 50 max SP I'll stick with just not buying non-Web SLAs. It is inarguable that you will increase your CC ability by having SLA Dance and Hold Person (and the rest for that matter), but the costs are to my mind just too severe when with Web and Hypno you are already a CCing fiend. To put it in made-up math figures, why get 5% better at CC when you could get 50% better at instant kills?

[Merlin-ator]

AM gives good DC (difficulty class/check, the ability to resist the effect of a spell) to more spells. It gives +2 to primary and secondary schools (Enchant and something else, if you're doing it right) if you took the proper enhancements. However, PM is a bit more self-sufficient. Your undead form grants you certain immunities (immunity to enemy negative energy spells, some diseases/poisons, blindness, and free stacking heavy fort) and the ability to heal yourself in form by having a negative energy spell cast on you by a friendly player, plus Liche (the best form) grants you +2 Int and +2 Necromancy DCs (+2 Int provides +1 universal DC, as opposed to AM's +2 to 2 chosen schools). Personally, I go with Pale Master for the immunities, it really frees up a lot of gear slots. The extra HP is icing on the cake. However, until you hit level 12, Archmage is the undeniably better choice for prestige. Level 12 grants Wraith form (25% incorp, +20 Hide/MS), though it does require a feat use (Mental Toughness. Liche requires Toughness, but any character should take that once for racial toughness).


As to the SLAs, they're the best features of AM. I've never used the PM SLAs, as when I finally slotted good CON/Toughness gear, I was level 23, and by then 1d6 to a small radius for 8 HP seemed pretty crappy, especially for a toon that kept Death Aura up at all times it was in standard AoE range of enemies.

[Loriac]

All wizards, PM or AM, are save-or-die casters at core. They rely on having high DCs for their chosen schools, and being able to punch through SR where necessary.

The evocation AM is a curious beast. Pre-expansion, it was great in low to mid levels, but damage petered out as you approached 20. The basic reason for this is that the devs chose almost the worst possible evocation spells for any given level of SLAs. Arguably magic missile is strong, but every other spell available as an SLA is much much worse than another of the same level. Force evocations tend to be the lowest damage because they are generally not resisted by mobs. The flip side of this is that if you can use any other element on a mob, its usually more effective to go with that element.

Imagine if you could chose the evocation spell you wanted at each level. You'd end up with stuff like:
L1 - magic missile
L2 - scorching ray
L3 - fireball / lightning bolt / frost lance
L4 - firewall / ice storm
L5 - cone of cold / ball lightning

An evocation AM spec'd like this would rock, and would be far far better as an evoker than any sorc out there.

But Turbine didn't want AMs to be able to nuke like sorcs, so we have the ridiculously poor SLA selection they gave us instead.

The only reason this has changed post-expac is Shiradi Champion. This ED has effects that trigger off each individual strike, and the force spells tend to throw lots of bolts at enemies that each do trivial damage individually. Suddenly each MM you throw out has about 70% chance to proc an effect on at least one of the bolts, which brings evoker AM SLAs back into contention.

On the topic of which schools to choose as an AM, most people tend to go with 2 out of necro, ench, and conj.

Ench makes you a party favourite, but severely limits your ability to solo things, whilst necro allows you to grab kills but can lead to problems where parties are expecting you to bring debilitation effects rather than death effects on mobs. Conj is usually the secondary school, and is taken purely for the web SLA.

[Kinerd]

Imagine if you could chose the evocation spell you wanted at each level. You'd end up with stuff like:
L1 - magic missile
L2 - scorching ray
L3 - fireball / lightning bolt / frost lance
L4 - firewall / ice storm
L5 - cone of cold / ball lightning

That... would be awesome.