Ranged now exempt from Adrenaline? Seriously?

[-Avalon-]

This makes no sense at all. Upset because "when soloing you cannot keep enemies at ranged" when I stated that when in GROUPS kiting is a bad idea because it reduces the DPS of the party from however many melee are in the party, to just you. When soloing I kite away merrily, after all the only one trying to kill the mobs is me. When I party, I rarely if ever kite.

Odd you should mention that. For some strange reason I don't have a caster permanently strapped to my belt and don't always have CC avaliable. The whole point of Ranged combat is to be able to attack mobs without having to wait for them to get to you, so you shoot at mobs in the distance. If you shoot at mobs they don't like it and run towards you (Wierd, isn't it?). Ever seen an Intimi-tank trying to pull a mob off an Archer (especially if said archer is kiting as you seem to feel is the norm)? Intim only works if you hit the mob too. You can't just stand there without hitting a mob(And if the Archer is kiting then good luck hitting the mob) and use Intim and magically make them switch targets. DPS melees? How are they going to help if they can't hit the mob because of kiting and even if they do hit the mob, how are they going to grab agro from an archer that's been attacking the mob for longer? Or do you suggest that a Ranged character just stand there looking pretty until the melee in the group engage and only then start shooting?

Who said anything about getting ganged up on? I merely asserted that given that kiting while in a Party is a bad thing and generally best to be avoided, Ranged chars take damage the same as Melee.

So... your defense is, that because when you see a mob in the distance, before the tank has engaged, you open fire and then get attacked and the tank cannot get it off of you? Cool, I know where you place your dissenting remarks then...

Sorry, but intelligent players know, "If I am the least bit squishy, then maybe I shouldn't be the FIRST thing on my enemy's mind"... Intelligent casters take the enhancements to lower their threat, and even then only cast once the melees have engaged (unless it is an insta-kill spell, then they usually just fire and hope it doesn't save)...

Sounds to me, like you are complaining that because you cannot A: Engage the mobs first, and B: Cannot kill the mob before it reaches you...

Maybe you should make a melee DPS, and use a bow up to the point it gets on you, then beat it down merrily. Otherwise, do not decide to be the prime target of the enemy, then complain that you cannot kill it before it even has a chance to hurt you... THAT build is way OVER-POWERED... And if you cannot see why, then you either are naive, or willfully ignorant, or you DO see why, but because it doesn't support your wishes you choose to ignore it.

If there is EVER a build that can continuously kill, kill, kill, with no danger of dying (or even getting hurt) unless they make an extreme error... Then that build is entirely too broken and needs to be fixed ASAP. This is a TEAM game, learn to be part of a team. Sorry that you cannot find, what is on my server, a dime a dozen (CC Wizards/Sorcs) or decent tanks... but then, apparently, you have a server where no one works as a team because even the ranged guys think they should either be able to Insta-Kill (roughly, because the time it takes for mobs to get to you ranges from Instant (devils) to maybe 6 seconds?)...

You're trying to be either an insta-kill sniper or a Ranged Tank... neither of which has ever stuck around in an MMO for very long. Longest was in DAOC, when they had archers that could basically insta-kill people... it lasted about a month at most. Because any ranged person able to do that, is completely OP and ruins the fun of the game for everyone else.

Learn to wait for the tanks/melees to engage, then plunk away, contribute to the group, not BE the group... Even those 'over-powered' casters wait until the split second right after the melees engage to start flinging spells, unless they are set up spells (Fire Wall, BB, etc), Insta-Kills, or CC spells... And those 'over-powered' casters only have so many SP to fling spells... you (theoretically) have infinite arrows... You having insta-kills with infinite resources, would be broken.

[Karavek]

Where did you get that idea? lol

No, what I said was that we all have positions in a group... the ranged person is to do damage, but not so much that they outweigh the aggro controlling parts of the group. Wizards do CC mostly... so the "because the casters kill everything (at range)" part I really don't get...

Caster = No armor, limited resources, very few HP, almost no protections, Decent DPS, good CC
Melee (tank) = A lot of HP, good armor, many protections, Decent DPS, good CC through Intimidation
Melee (DPS) = Decent HP, Decent Armor, Ok protections, great DPS, No CC
Ranged = Decent HP, Decent Armor, Ok Protections, Good DPS, no CC

Seems to me, like if you want real DPS, put down the bow and get in the fight... you are complaining that people who risk or sacrifice more than you, do more damage! The devs are not going to make it so that you have the ultimate soloer that can blow down groups of enemies before they even reach you. What you seem to be asking for, is to be able to invalidate every other build in existence, except maybe wizard CC (to keep mobs grouped and easy pickings for you) and cleric healer (to heal you just in case one or two mobs do make it through your high dps artillery)...

you seem confused, caster does not equal no armor. infact its rather easy for clerics to where armor while casting. same with bards, artificers, etc. Even wizards and sorcerers with abit of splash into fighter, and elven arcane fluidity could wear an epic cavalry plate with its gem slot using the 15% arcane spell failure on top of the mithril reduction, ends up letting even those so called unarmored arcanes wear armor, and with a DP clicky to boost their BAB, which in turn boosts PRR lets everyone who wants it have the choice to wear viable armor.

[Karavek]

So... your defense is, that because when you see a mob in the distance, before the tank has engaged, you open fire and then get attacked and the tank cannot get it off of you? Cool, I know where you place your dissenting remarks then...

Sorry, but intelligent players know, "If I am the least bit squishy, then maybe I shouldn't be the FIRST thing on my enemy's mind"... Intelligent casters take the enhancements to lower their threat, and even then only cast once the melees have engaged (unless it is an insta-kill spell, then they usually just fire and hope it doesn't save)...

Sounds to me, like you are complaining that because you cannot A: Engage the mobs first, and B: Cannot kill the mob before it reaches you...

Maybe you should make a melee DPS, and use a bow up to the point it gets on you, then beat it down merrily. Otherwise, do not decide to be the prime target of the enemy, then complain that you cannot kill it before it even has a chance to hurt you... THAT build is way OVER-POWERED... And if you cannot see why, then you either are naive, or willfully ignorant, or you DO see why, but because it doesn't support your wishes you choose to ignore it.

If there is EVER a build that can continuously kill, kill, kill, with no danger of dying (or even getting hurt) unless they make an extreme error... Then that build is entirely too broken and needs to be fixed ASAP. This is a TEAM game, learn to be part of a team. Sorry that you cannot find, what is on my server, a dime a dozen (CC Wizards/Sorcs) or decent tanks... but then, apparently, you have a server where no one works as a team because even the ranged guys think they should either be able to Insta-Kill (roughly, because the time it takes for mobs to get to you ranges from Instant (devils) to maybe 6 seconds?)...

You're trying to be either an insta-kill sniper or a Ranged Tank... neither of which has ever stuck around in an MMO for very long. Longest was in DAOC, when they had archers that could basically insta-kill people... it lasted about a month at most. Because any ranged person able to do that, is completely OP and ruins the fun of the game for everyone else.

Learn to wait for the tanks/melees to engage, then plunk away, contribute to the group, not BE the group... Even those 'over-powered' casters wait until the split second right after the melees engage to start flinging spells, unless they are set up spells (Fire Wall, BB, etc), Insta-Kills, or CC spells... And those 'over-powered' casters only have so many SP to fling spells... you (theoretically) have infinite arrows... You having insta-kills with infinite resources, would be broken.

You also seem to think this is wow, we do not have a holy trinity, nor tanks here. We have squishy non self healing front line warriors who delude themselves into thinking they where ever meant to be equal to casters in the post lvl 10 game. The fact is D&D pnp expects such characters to retire and for the casters to go on to great things and become NPCs. That is how it is. We came to DDO with D&D based rules. and a lvl 10 cap that gave far to much power to the warrior caste. Now that we hve pushed past the lvl 10 cap, mundane men of steel feel the weight of it growing heavier upon their aging bones. TRing, combined with the handy benefits that come from warrior class past lives always spoke to me that if you made the mistake of playing a warrior believing he would be equal to casters, he could easily change that in their next life while getting benefit from the struggle of their previous mortal life.

Swords break, armor fails, magic is eternal and so are those who master it. This is the way of D&D. It is its single TRUTH! To even begin to suggest a mundane man is equal to a skilled arcane archer, artificer, or zen archery elven clonkcher is tantamount to suggesting they throw out the D&D concept and just call this game wannabe wow.

[-Avalon-]

You also seem to think this is wow, we do not have a holy trinity, nor tanks here. We have squishy non self healing front line warriors who delude themselves into thinking they where ever meant to be equal to casters in the post lvl 10 game. The fact is D&D pnp expects such characters to retire and for the casters to go on to great things and become NPCs. That is how it is. We came to DDO with D&D based rules. and a lvl 10 cap that gave far to much power to the warrior caste. Now that we hve pushed past the lvl 10 cap, mundane men of steel feel the weight of it growing heavier upon their aging bones. TRing, combined with the handy benefits that come from warrior class past lives always spoke to me that if you made the mistake of playing a warrior believing he would be equal to casters, he could easily change that in their next life while getting benefit from the struggle of their previous mortal life.

Swords break, armor fails, magic is eternal and so are those who master it. This is the way of D&D. It is its single TRUTH! To even begin to suggest a mundane man is equal to a skilled arcane archer, artificer, or zen archery elven clonkcher is tantamount to suggesting they throw out the D&D concept and just call this game wannabe wow.

What is your highest level toon again?? Because I have seen Barb's hit for over 2K on pretty much every hit... and do most of that on any mob near his target as well... I have not seen any wizards/sorcs/clerics do that yet... They do large numbers yes, not nearly THAT large... No, they go "FINGER!" and mob dies or saves...

Barb/Fighter goes, "Take 1.5-5K, and all your buddies do too!" about 5 times in the span the wizard takes ONE down, maybe 2... And does this while getting stomped on repeatedly by about 4-7 enemies... And he lives, why? because he ignores 40-50% of the damage that makes it past his AC/Miss Chance (thanks to PRR), Then laughs as that damage is soaked up into his 1K-1.5K HP...

Waiting to see your God-Wizard do that repeatedly for a half hour straight... Because Caster = Finite Resources, Casting Spell Cooldowns, etc... Melee = Infinite resources, 4-6 attacks per 'round' plus cleave, great cleave, lay waste, momentum, etc...

You seem to play in a different realm entirely from DDO, not even WoW, EQ, DAOC, etc... something entirely made up and exists in your mind... but make no mistake, it is NOT the DDO I have ever seen. Even in D&D, 1st Edition: Fighter was pretty strong (not anywhere near a wizard, but still strong) at high levels, 2nd Edition: Same, but stronger... 3rd Edition: Became able to surpass any damage a wizard even remotely dreamt of, due to only needing to bypass AC (and maybe DR if they had the wrong weapon), whereas wizards had multiple obstacles (saving throws, damage resistance to elements, spell resistance, etc)... 4th edition? Fighters blow wizards out of the water... it is ridiculous how strong they are.

So, enjoy your personal utopia where things go YOUR way... but please realize, it is in your head, not in the game...

EDIT: Also, not sure which game you are playing, but we DO have a holy trinity, always have... and it exists because it is a fact of life in games... you need someone to hold the attention of the enemy, preferably someone who can take a real beating; you need someone who can keep that guy from dying; you need people to kill that enemy before it kills the group. If you think this is not how it is, man, let me know your in-game name and server so I can make sure NEVER to even consider grouping with you, because odds are you will get my group killed by thinking that there is any way to do it besides that way.

Also, #2 guy can be replaced by healing potions/scrolls/wands/etc, but does not change that #2 guy exists, even if it is the paladin/rogue/bard with huge UMD using healing scrolls... they are still taking the place of "The Healer"

[Archangel666]

So... your defense is, that because when you see a mob in the distance, before the tank has engaged, you open fire and then get attacked and the tank cannot get it off of you? Cool, I know where you place your dissenting remarks then...

Sorry, but intelligent players know, "If I am the least bit squishy, then maybe I shouldn't be the FIRST thing on my enemy's mind"... Intelligent casters take the enhancements to lower their threat, and even then only cast once the melees have engaged (unless it is an insta-kill spell, then they usually just fire and hope it doesn't save)...

Sounds to me, like you are complaining that because you cannot A: Engage the mobs first, and B: Cannot kill the mob before it reaches you...

Maybe you should make a melee DPS, and use a bow up to the point it gets on you, then beat it down merrily. Otherwise, do not decide to be the prime target of the enemy, then complain that you cannot kill it before it even has a chance to hurt you... THAT build is way OVER-POWERED... And if you cannot see why, then you either are naive, or willfully ignorant, or you DO see why, but because it doesn't support your wishes you choose to ignore it.

If there is EVER a build that can continuously kill, kill, kill, with no danger of dying (or even getting hurt) unless they make an extreme error... Then that build is entirely too broken and needs to be fixed ASAP. This is a TEAM game, learn to be part of a team. Sorry that you cannot find, what is on my server, a dime a dozen (CC Wizards/Sorcs) or decent tanks... but then, apparently, you have a server where no one works as a team because even the ranged guys think they should either be able to Insta-Kill (roughly, because the time it takes for mobs to get to you ranges from Instant (devils) to maybe 6 seconds?)...

You're trying to be either an insta-kill sniper or a Ranged Tank... neither of which has ever stuck around in an MMO for very long. Longest was in DAOC, when they had archers that could basically insta-kill people... it lasted about a month at most. Because any ranged person able to do that, is completely OP and ruins the fun of the game for everyone else.

Learn to wait for the tanks/melees to engage, then plunk away, contribute to the group, not BE the group... Even those 'over-powered' casters wait until the split second right after the melees engage to start flinging spells, unless they are set up spells (Fire Wall, BB, etc), Insta-Kills, or CC spells... And those 'over-powered' casters only have so many SP to fling spells... you (theoretically) have infinite arrows... You having insta-kills with infinite resources, would be broken.

You don't actually read what people write, do you? No need to answer that, it was purely rhetorical, its clear that you just responded to what you assume I wrote rather than the actual words I did write.

Ranged combat, specifically Bows do less damage than melee weapons and have a considerably slower rate of attack. To balance this Ranged get to attack sooner. While a melee is running to a mob their DPS is a big fat 0. Meanwhile the ranged character is already doing damage.


Let me be clear.

I stated that Ranged characters take damage the same as Melee.

Why?

Because when in a Party kiting is undesirable because it lowers the DPS of the group and makes everything take longer to kill. So I don't kite.

What typically happens when running with friends on their melee is that I attack a mob and when it gets close, I stand there and take the hits. Either I will kill it, or if it's a particularly tough mob one of my melee friends will peal it off me and since I'm not kiting this is fairly easy to do.

However since I'm not kiting and standing there I take damage.

Oh and where the hell did you get that nonsense about "You having insta-kills with infinite resources, would be broken" come from? When did anyone suggest an archer should have infinite Insta kills?

For the record I never even used Adrenaline with ranged combat, I've been busy capping my Monk's Destinies and am not overly bothered about its loss other than the fact that there is now one less build option available and means more cookie cutter.

[-Avalon-]

You don't actually read what people write, do you? No need to answer that, it was purely rhetorical, its clear that you just responded to what you assume I wrote rather than the actual words I did write.

Ranged combat, specifically Bows do less damage than melee weapons and have a considerably slower rate of attack. To balance this Ranged get to attack sooner. While a melee is running to a mob their DPS is a big fat 0. Meanwhile the ranged character is already doing damage.


Let me be clear.

I stated that Ranged characters take damage the same as Melee.

Why?

Because when in a Party kiting is undesirable because it lowers the DPS of the group and makes everything take longer to kill. So I don't kite.

What typically happens when running with friends on their melee is that I attack a mob and when it gets close, I stand there and take the hits. Either I will kill it, or if it's a particularly tough mob one of my melee friends will peal it off me and since I'm not kiting this is fairly easy to do.

However since I'm not kiting and standing there I take damage.

Oh and where the hell did you get that nonsense about "You having insta-kills with infinite resources, would be broken" come from? When did anyone suggest an archer should have infinite Insta kills?

For the record I never even used Adrenaline with ranged combat, I've been busy capping my Monk's Destinies and am not overly bothered about its loss other than the fact that there is now one less build option available and means more cookie cutter.

I could very well say the same about your posts, because if you actually take the time to read mine, it explains exactly what you are complaining about, yet your reply says that it does not... soooo... you are not READING the posts, you see my first sentence or paragraph, then make a reply.

PLEASE READ: We have several possibilities for how a scenario works out...
A: You open fire before anyone has engaged the enemy, you get beat on because you didn't kill it before it got to you.
B: You open fire before anyone has engaged the enemy, but do not get beat on because you do so much damage that it is dead within a second or two of being fired upon.
C: You WAIT and let the tank types do what they are DESIGNED to do - Get the enemy's attention, THEN start firing, thus avoiding getting hit AT ALL!

YOU play the A game, because you like most people who are that way, are most obsessed with the numbers under the kill section and have to have tons of kills or you feel like you are not contributing properly to the group... unfortunately, the kills represent who got the hit that killed the enemy, not who did most damage to it! So, at end of adventure, you may have ZERO kills, but contributed most to the damage. Only two ways to up that kill # guaranteed: Fire first and kill it before others engage, or be a catfish and hit things only when they get low on life.

The smarter way to play if you are squishy at all, is to let the beafy meat puppets engage, then throw as much on as possible...

Unfortunately, I have been dealing with players like you since 1998 or so for online games... They forget rule #1 about being a DPS: All DPS goes to 0 when your life is at 0. I don't care how much DPS you do, when you are dead, it is 0! So, stop firing first, this isn't EQ or WOW, so we don't need you to pull for the group. We need you alive and not soaking up SP from the healer because you are hot stuff and can do what you are doing. You are not designed to take damage, so avoid it!

And you know how to avoid it, but are actively choosing not to avoid it, then making, at least slight, complaints that as an archer you take hits just like melees, so you SHOULD be able to get more DPS? So, you play the 'not-smart' archer route, then expect the Devs to fix it for you? THAT is why I said you either want "insta-kill" power, or are trying to play a ranged tank (which does not work at all in any game that ever tried it, unless the enemies are also all ranged, Ex. SWTOR)

If you are not asking for those two, then fine, but don't throw out the exception to rule saying the rule needs to change, or just because you are pointing out that some archers decide to voluntarily take on damage from enemies... That is YOUR choice, not what the Devs intended I am pretty sure (since they have NOT buffed ranged damage, ranged HP/AC, given benefits that make you hardier, etc)

YOU need to read, I have been reading your posts, and answer pretty much every point you make (hence long posts), you on the other hand read first sentence or two, then just go off about where you THINK the rest was going... /smh

EDIT: btw, where do I get these ideas? Because I actually DO read a ton on the forums, and listen to people in game, etc... YOU are not the only person complaining about the supposed 'nerf'. So, if I read what you say, and then read 10 other peoples' comments, and they ALL seem to be exactly the same griping/moaning/etc... then I start to think of all of you as having the same mindset. And I have yet to find one that does not want to have the same DPS as a melee, but with a bow instead... and then when explained to, that THEY make the choice to take damage by firing first, they don't understand or get it. They want to fire first, be able to take the damage, AND be able to kill as fast as melees or casters... Sooo... you just want a Greatsword with a range of 200 yards... No, that isn't asking for much... (hence my comment, cake and eat it too) You get to make a decision, range and less damage, range and less survivability, or up close and personal with no range... YOU chose ranged and less damage. DEAL with it, it your responsibility to make good decisions, not the devs to make em for you! (sort of like your decision to fire before the meless engage, YOUR decision, but apparently, you like making bad decisions)

[TheLegendOfAra]

@Avalon: Since when do Ranged toons have to be weaker, or squishier than a melee toon? My ranger (first life 28pnt elf) sits at around 800 HP with self buffs. Not squishy in my mind when you consider my Cure Serious Wounds hits me for roughly 200 HP with my heal amp.. While I'll admit that I in no way have the PRR that most melee have because of my class/gear choices, I could have almost as much as my melee counterpart if I made the choice to gimp my build by wearing heavy armor.

I also have a problem with your assumption that Ranged toons can not and should not tank. I've personally tanked Elite VoD, EH Chrono, Elite HoX, And many, many quests. Why? Because when it boiled down to it, I had the agro, and I was tired of stealing it form incompetent tanks, whose only purpose was to make the raid take longer. Why wait for the tank to get agro, worry that you'll steal it if you max your DPS, and then end up tanking anyways, when you could get initial agro, and keep it? Do I make a great tank? Probably not. Do I get the job done in a decent amount of time? Yes. I'll not pretend that my toon was built to tank, or that it does it better than a true tanking build, but to say it can't do the job, is frankly ignorant.

I enjoy using Shiradi for general questing, and I like/liked taking FotW into raids to really max my DPS against the boss. Did I abuse it? Not in my opinion. I assumed adrenaline was meant to work that way with a bow. How was I supposed to know any different when they didn't post it wasn't WAI until they nerfed it. And I view the two destinies as what they truly are. Shiradi is a ranged destiny that gives you more options for CC/ranged DPS, and FotW is a destiny mainly for melee DPS, but had some perks for ranged character, which if used properly made some very potent DPS.

And just to cover all bases; Ranged toons, if played correctly and efficiently take just as much, if not more Damage than their melee counterparts (more damage due mainly to a lack of PRR/AC since U14). Why? Simple, why lessen the parties DPS, which in turn makes the quest take longer, when you you can pewpew at a mob doing DPS before it ever gets to your group, and then stand there and take the hits either getting healed/self healing until melee takes the agro from you? People who kite in groups, or wait for melee to get agro are just playing to slow. I don't want to take 45 min in a quest if I can do it in 10. Sure both get the job done, but at the end of the day, one way was much more efficient.

While I respect your opinion as just that, an opinion, we obviously do play the game in 2 completely different ways.
What we're asking for is not to be OP, or to have the most kill counts but for a bit of balance. Ranged combat as it is now is out shown(DPS wise) by almost every single type of combat in the game. Is this fair? No. Is it reasonable? no.
You need to actually appreciate how people play the game, not how you view it should be played. It's a two way street, I'll respect the way you play if you respect the way I play. I play fast, efficient and I want the very best for my toon in every way possible that the game has to offer. By this I mean that if something like adrenaline is released as a "feature", and is supposedly WAI, I would like it to stay that way, not for the dev to decided "Derp Ranged is too OP, gotta get the nerf bat".

and you can play your way, taking as long as you like waiting for that tank to establish his ago well enough so that you can attack.

/rant off
I feel like I just typed a **** essay.

[-Avalon-]

@Avalon: Since when do Ranged toons have to be weaker, or squishier than a melee toon? My ranger (first life 28pnt elf) sits at around 800 HP with self buffs. Not squishy in my mind when you consider my Cure Serious Wounds hits me for roughly 200 HP with my heal amp.. While I'll admit that I in no way have the PRR that most melee have because of my class/gear choices, I could have almost as much as my melee counterpart if I made the choice to gimp my build by wearing heavy armor.

You do realize you just explained my point for me, right? You would have to gimp your toon to be effective in that manner... but you CHOSE not to, so you could have an effective ranged toon. Melee DPS do jack-squat DPS on ranged, why? Because they chose to focus on being effective melees. CHOICE.

I also have a problem with your assumption that Ranged toons can not and should not tank. I've personally tanked Elite VoD, EH Chrono, Elite HoX, And many, many quests. Why? Because when it boiled down to it, I had the agro, and I was tired of stealing it form incompetent tanks, whose only purpose was to make the raid take longer. Why wait for the tank to get agro, worry that you'll steal it if you max your DPS, and then end up tanking anyways, when you could get initial agro, and keep it? Do I make a great tank? Probably not. Do I get the job done in a decent amount of time? Yes. I'll not pretend that my toon was built to tank, or that it does it better than a true tanking build, but to say it can't do the job, is frankly ignorant.

You talk about not being a gimped toon as the reason you chose not to wear armor and all that... then talk about how non-effective you are as a tank (you CAN do it, just don't do it as well as the melee tanks)... and yet, still don't see the point. Amazing.

I enjoy using Shiradi for general questing, and I like/liked taking FotW into raids to really max my DPS against the boss. Did I abuse it? Not in my opinion. I assumed adrenaline was meant to work that way with a bow. How was I supposed to know any different when they didn't post it wasn't WAI until they nerfed it. And I view the two destinies as what they truly are. Shiradi is a ranged destiny that gives you more options for CC/ranged DPS, and FotW is a destiny mainly for melee DPS, but had some perks for ranged character, which if used properly made some very potent DPS.

Really? Take a look at FotW abilities again... other than throwing a boulder, where does it suggest this is even remotely a ranged ED? I see SC as the ranged primal/ranger, and FotW as the Tempest-style ranger... And notice, if you are a ranged toon, and you pick tempest PrE, you won't get any bonuses to ranged combat, right? Why would you see an ED that has nothing to do with ranged, and think, "Hey, I think I should do that! And if it ever doesn't work I will moan and complain until the Devs give in!" This is what I see from players on this issue. It is blatantly obvious that it is NOT ranged in almost any way at all, they chose it anyway, and then when the devs FIX it to be as intended, the players complain? And the only justification they can give, is a line from a dev how it was supposed to work on ranged combat... well, throwing is ranged as well. Without saying anything direct, the devs have said basically nothing... yet players read a whole lot into it, then take it from there launching into huge mountains made of nothing more than ethereal wisps.

And just to cover all bases; Ranged toons, if played correctly and efficiently take just as much, if not more Damage than their melee counterparts (more damage due mainly to a lack of PRR/AC since U14). Why? Simple, why lessen the parties DPS, which in turn makes the quest take longer, when you you can pewpew at a mob doing DPS before it ever gets to your group, and then stand there and take the hits either getting healed/self healing until melee takes the agro from you? People who kite in groups, or wait for melee to get agro are just playing to slow. I don't want to take 45 min in a quest if I can do it in 10. Sure both get the job done, but at the end of the day, one way was much more efficient.

So, yet again, your CHOICE, is to do maximum DPS (knowing you cannot take damage like a melee can) which forces the healer to spend more SP on keeping you alive, or raising you when/if you die... Luckily YOU specifically have some cures of your own... not all Ranged do. So we should say, "Cool!" when the tank dies due to the healer having spent all their SP on keeping the ranged guy alive? Especially when all they had to do was wait a half second more to start shooting, or maybe not use maximum DPS at every possible moment... Yeah, I have been in a bunch of those "ZERG!!!!" groups... at least 60% of time, the guy who insists on zerging gets everyone killed, and then we have to repeat the quest 2 or 3 more times because they act without actually thinking... making that 45 minute quest into an hour and a half quest. Yep, more effective. I wish people who Zerged would have the last name (Zerg!) so everyone would know who it is, and Zergers can all group together, while those who play smart can go somewhere else.

On the note of efficient: I have watched those same "ZERG!!!" people who I grouped with at low levels (I am TR btw) stay at low levels, as I continue to make VERY good time getting up in levels... with almost no time to play each night, I have still gotten more than a level a night. Only a week, and I am already 14 again. So... maybe playing smart is better... in same 7 days, the zergers are still lvl 8/9... because they play dumb, and suffer as a consequence.

While I respect your opinion as just that, an opinion, we obviously do play the game in 2 completely different ways.
What we're asking for is not to be OP, or to have the most kill counts but for a bit of balance. Ranged combat as it is now is out shown(DPS wise) by almost every single type of combat in the game. Is this fair? No. Is it reasonable? no.
You need to actually appreciate how people play the game, not how you view it should be played. It's a two way street, I'll respect the way you play if you respect the way I play. I play fast, efficient and I want the very best for my toon in every way possible that the game has to offer. By this I mean that if something like adrenaline is released as a "feature", and is supposedly WAI, I would like it to stay that way, not for the dev to decided "Derp Ranged is too OP, gotta get the nerf bat".

and you can play your way, taking as long as you like waiting for that tank to establish his ago well enough so that you can attack.

/rant off
I feel like I just typed a **** essay.

I will respect the way you play when you study the mechanics of the game in a wise manner. Insisting the game bend to your wants will never work. Definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. You keep banging the "Ranged should be better" thing... Well, a ranged guy that does as much DPS as the melee's and arcanes, does it from a distance? Why ever risk getting hit then? Just play the game as your pick: Ranged or Arcane. Kill all stuff before it gets to you because 6 Rangers > 6 Fighters/Barbs (because THEY can do it from far back)... Get over the "I want to be OP" thing, the game works the way it does for a reason, Ranged has ALWAYS been subpar on DPS, and people still insist on playing it and complaining about how they don't get any love.

You made the choice, you deal with the consequences. I play a wizard/fighter... guess what, I will NEVER have spells that do as much as a pure wizard, and won't have the HP of a pure fighter, will never be able to effectively stun/trip an enemy... I don't complain about that though. You make choices, deal with it, you cannot have everything... not even have 70% of everything. To get one thing, you give up another. You chose ranged then say you had to give up the PRR/AC of a melee... so you are pointing out EXACTLY what I am saying.

[Dieterstrife]

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...0&postcount=85

Hey, I think this proves one main thing.

Adrenaline was intended to work with Ranged in the first place.

Now I don't mind ranged not being able to do as much dps as a melee toon, thats why rangers can do both. What I have a problem with is the gap in between. Avalon can argue all he wants about how no one who is ranged should ever complain about anything because they arent in combat, but its a terrible argument backed up by pretty much nothing but personal beliefs.

Rangers were given a huge buff THAT WAS INTENDED! What was not intended was that during manyshot, it wouldnt turn off.

[zwiebelring]

Choices will give a build its limits. If you make a choice, which does not have a trade-off or which overcomes that trade-off completely, is broken.

So, Avalaon does have a point when it comes to crying about a lost abuse. But since there is a linked *Yes* from a dev suggesting it should work with ranged, people are right to complain about another annoying bug or lost feature.

[-Avalon-]

The linked 'yes' in question was in reply to a question that asks is it meant to work with ranged... my point all along has been devil's advocate: Do not get so tied up in thinking they absolute mean BOWS and XBOWS that you get your hopes up, and therefore IF they only mean THROWING, you do not get all butt-hurt over it.

There is a VERY real possibility that the severely ambiguous term, 'Ranged' could mean only throwing... of course, it could mean a blanket, "ALL ranged"... but then All Ranged = Bows, Xbows, Thrown, Ray Spells, etc... So, is adrenaline then supposed to help my melee Palemaster run up, beat something for a while, then jump back and fire a Disintegration spell? (Is a ray, has to HIT the enemy first, so therefore, a Ranged Attack)... Is that covered as well?

"Expect the worst, hope for the best"... Expect it will only mean Thrown... if it does, then no problems... If it works on ALL ranged, then be pleasantly surprised and happy! But don't throw all your eggs in one basket and complain/moan/b**** until the devs give in, or worse, they don't and you rage quit because of something dumb that you could have approached differently.

[Dieterstrife]

Dude, by your logic a Sorcerer should have his dps nerfed to that of a ranger because he can stand back and fight. And you and I both know that's never going to happen, so how exactly is it fair? A Warforged Sorcerer can now hit 1000hp, do more dps than anyone, and has instant self healing abilities.

Yet it's totally fair that a ranger is not allowed to have any semblance of this dps, simply because he stands at a distance to fight.

Which a sorcerer does.

We aren't moaning so much that it was taken away, we are asking for any kind of ETA of when it will be given back. If you actually happen to read the other posts in that thread, you would notice that a large portion of it shifted toward whether it would work with a bow or not. Vargouille came in with a one word answer for us.

And just so we're clear, you can try and stretch the meaning all you want. Ranged means Bows and Crossbows. Throwing is daggers, hammer, etc. And Arcane is Ray spells. Don't try and justify your argument by saying that something isn't as clear cut as it is described in our feats.

[-Avalon-]

Dude, by your logic a Sorcerer should have his dps nerfed to that of a ranger because he can stand back and fight. And you and I both know that's never going to happen, so how exactly is it fair? A Warforged Sorcerer can now hit 1000hp, do more dps than anyone, and has instant self healing abilities.

Yet it's totally fair that a ranger is not allowed to have any semblance of this dps, simply because he stands at a distance to fight.

Which a sorcerer does.

We aren't moaning so much that it was taken away, we are asking for any kind of ETA of when it will be given back. If you actually happen to read the other posts in that thread, you would notice that a large portion of it shifted toward whether it would work with a bow or not. Vargouille came in with a one word answer for us.

And just so we're clear, you can try and stretch the meaning all you want. Ranged means Bows and Crossbows. Throwing is daggers, hammer, etc. And Arcane is Ray spells. Don't try and justify your argument by saying that something isn't as clear cut as it is described in our feats.

Hmmm... you seem to be new to... the english languaged? or to D&D? Maybe Both?

Definition of ranged attack:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...dattack&alpha=

Any attack made at a distance with a ranged weapon, as opposed to a melee attack.

Seeing as throwing attacks are made at a distance... most spells are done at a distance (but they all auto-hit... oh yeah, EXCEPT ray spells, which can miss very easily)... Yet, to you, they don't make the cut on Ranged Attack definition despite being such ever since the game came out (I mean both DDO and D&D btw)... you can call them rainbows and puppy dogs, but that doesn't mean they are... EVERYTHING else pre-existent to you decided they ARE ranged.

And no, I am not just yanking something out of my rear... do a history on me back to when the problem FIRST came up... heck, just look back at the beginnings of this thread and others just like it... I have ALWAYS been saying this.

And, how is it that I am saying arcanes need to be nerfed? Do they get full BAB? Multiple attacks? Ability to use armor without having to leap through hoops to do it? Multiple bonus feats for use in melee or ranged? Rangers/Ranged Fighters&Barbs/Rogues, etc etc... they get all sorts of bonuses that arcanes do NOT get...

How about ability to carry thousands of arrows and even summon MORE? Arcanes just get to yank more SP out of their butts right? Don't even consider coming back with stupid Mnemonic Pots (because the ones worth using cost 10-20K PER and only allow arcanes to cast 10-30 more spells... so when was the last time you spent 15K plat to be able to manyshot 20 more times?

It is expensive, dangerous, and risky as can be to be an arcane caster. You have to have genitalia of adamantine to play one. No armor, no defenses for most part, barely any HP unless you align the planets just right, etc etc... And then you take into account that you have to be so specialized to be able to get any damage, cannot alter your course whatsoever (need to be 18 or 20 levels pure), have NO stats besides int/cha and con, and even then, you can still end up dead in the water due to NO SP left? What to do then? Hope and pray? Can't melee, cannot just summon up some more SP...

You can gripe about how bad you have it because you don't have as much dps as an arcane, but reality is, you don't because you have the flexibility, variety, etc, you have the ability to wear armors, you can do all sorts of things that a pure wiz/sorc can NOT do...

I have been on both sides of the coin(or all three): Melee, Ranged, Caster... and yeah, it really sucks watching enemies die before I even get to the enemy as a melee (because caster killed them all), of course it also sucks because I am running around in circles as the ranged guy screams like a B**** trying to lose aggro and not die. As a ranged, I never did as much DPS as melee's let alone casters and that sucked, and even worse when the melee's charge around a corner and I now have to run up and change position to even get a shot off, as the caster I have seen how many times I cast a spell and it blows holes in the enemies' defenses... but have also seen where I crit for a lot and 6 big brutes come charging at me... I can either stand there and take it and hope to GOD someone gets it off me, or I can do like the ranged guy and run around screaming like a little girl...

There are gives and takes, and as an arcane, it REALLY sucks when you know the nearest shrine is about 5-10 minutes away, but you HAD to cast spells as much as you did to keep party alive through some rough fights... luckily, the next 5-10 minutes are chump fights... but I get to sit there twiddling my 'godly powerful fingers' watching everyone fight and just kind of following along hoping to not get attacked for just standing there...

Yep, fun times... EVERYONE has disadvantages... YOURS is that you do less DPS than either of the others... but you have SO many advantages, but you don't see those for some reason, all you want to see is the negatives...

[Dieterstrife]

Barbs are often seen wearing robes and light armor, rogues in armor have essentially no defensive capabilities beyond dodge, and the only ones who ever have high defenses are usually paladins, fighters and monks. Fighters get the excuse that they are tactic masters.

Oh, by the way. As for me not being able to comprehend the English language? Take a look at this page:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Weapons_by_damage_type

I would like to point out that youre trying to prove yourself with an in general description of the problem, while the rest of us have been using the actual arch-type displayed in game. I might also add that adrenaline did work with thrown attacks, as well as ranged attacks.

That, and I rarely see casters run out of sp. The amount of sp regenerating abilities in this game is insane, from Conc Opp to Torc, Ring of Spell Storing, Divine Vitality, Sp pots, over abundance of shrines in some quests.

Should Fighters be given a way of regenerating their action boosts? That would be fair, since they are in combat and the largest portion of their damage is their boosts.

And you still haven't really answered my question about how arcanes having so much more dps than anything is fair. They can't wear armor? Back before U14, there really wasnt any point in wearing armor in the first place unless it gave you a bonus to dps. Both a ranger and a sorc can kite, both can heal themselves, yet the arcane can do this all more efficiently (both get the jump spell) and can put out much more damage in both single target and massive AOE form. A ranger is limited to single target or straight line shotgunning with IPS, but a sorc can just cast acid fog, can get the dc's to have more than efficient CC, while bulldozing everything else.

Like I said. We are looking for an ETA of when we'll get it back. You're sitting here arguing that we should never have had it in the first place, and shouldn't ever complain. I personally was told that yes, it is designed to work with ranged. And just to satisfy you, this ranged also meant thrown weapons. If it worked with spells, how fair would that be? +400% damage to all spells? Would that be justifiable to you, considering there are pictures of people critting for 30k damage? It's totally fair that they would be able to do 120k damage on a single blast, because they can't wear armor and their 4000sp isn't infinite. Yet the archer, with his ridiculously slow attack rate should not have it, because every 2 minutes he gets a big increase to his dps and can do this all at range. Let's not mention how the arcane does the same dps during that 2 minutes that we get for 20 seconds.

[-Avalon-]

Barbs are often seen wearing robes and light armor, rogues in armor have essentially no defensive capabilities beyond dodge, and the only ones who ever have high defenses are usually paladins, fighters and monks. Fighters get the excuse that they are tactic masters.

Oh, by the way. As for me not being able to comprehend the English language? Take a look at this page:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Weapons_by_damage_type

So, your proof to back up your stance, is to use a wiki? You think a wiki refutes the stance of the people who actually hold the rights to all the info that Turbine uses, and thus can tell them NO? Lol... You also realize, that if you were to write a paper for school/college/even a board meeting, etc... that if you have any WIKI as a resource to back you up, that they will laugh you out of the room and give the best F grade to your entire work? I went to WotC to get my definition (which is the one direct from the source)... you went to something that is made my non-professionals and open to public editing... hmmm... I think WotC's is the correct definition.

I would like to point out that youre trying to prove yourself with an in general description of the problem, while the rest of us have been using the actual arch-type displayed in game. I might also add that adrenaline did work with thrown attacks, as well as ranged attacks.

And then they removed it entirely from ANY ranged attacks, saying it was being used incorrectly/being exploited... I wonder what all THAT could mean... and considering I have all along said that it SHOULD work with throwing, since the entire ED is built around str-based attacking (including an ability to HURL (READ: THROW!) a boulder... yeah, I kind of already said that throwing was intended... My question has always been that in an obviously STR-based ED, where the ONLY ranged attack is THROWING a big rock... why people insist that when the Devs said, "Ranged" that it automatically meant bows and xbows... maybe the devs meant that SOME ranged (IE, Throwing!) was intended... and that when they saw it being used with bows, they yanked it out as not WAI...

That, and I rarely see casters run out of sp. The amount of sp regenerating abilities in this game is insane, from Conc Opp to Torc, Ring of Spell Storing, Divine Vitality, Sp pots, over abundance of shrines in some quests.

Holy Wow dude... really? SP pots are expensive (already pointed out), Torc may as well not even exist since it takes between 20 and 100 runs to get one, then you have to HOPE for getting the epic ingredients to upgrade it... Conc Opp is 4% (not exactly a HUGE bonus there), Divine Vitality is almost unheard of except on hirelings, Abundance of shrines? You playing on casual there man? EE you stretch the SP out as best as you can, shrines are one time only, and sometimes only ONE per quest run... Yep, that means a TON of them...

Should Fighters be given a way of regenerating their action boosts? That would be fair, since they are in combat and the largest portion of their damage is their boosts.

No, but they DO get to buy healing potions dirt cheap at any apothecary in town, can UMD heal scrolls and wands, etc... THEIR bread n butter is not AB's, it is their HP and DPS... when the HP runs out, they are as useful as an arcane with no SP... But they have TONS of ways to stay alive and keep swinging... arcanes do NOT!

And you still haven't really answered my question about how arcanes having so much more dps than anything is fair. They can't wear armor? Back before U14, there really wasnt any point in wearing armor in the first place unless it gave you a bonus to dps. Both a ranger and a sorc can kite, both can heal themselves, yet the arcane can do this all more efficiently (both get the jump spell) and can put out much more damage in both single target and massive AOE form. A ranger is limited to single target or straight line shotgunning with IPS, but a sorc can just cast acid fog, can get the dc's to have more than efficient CC, while bulldozing everything else.

Like I said. We are looking for an ETA of when we'll get it back. You're sitting here arguing that we should never have had it in the first place, and shouldn't ever complain. I personally was told that yes, it is designed to work with ranged. And just to satisfy you, this ranged also meant thrown weapons. If it worked with spells, how fair would that be? +400% damage to all spells? Would that be justifiable to you, considering there are pictures of people critting for 30k damage? It's totally fair that they would be able to do 120k damage on a single blast, because they can't wear armor and their 4000sp isn't infinite. Yet the archer, with his ridiculously slow attack rate should not have it, because every 2 minutes he gets a big increase to his dps and can do this all at range. Let's not mention how the arcane does the same dps during that 2 minutes that we get for 20 seconds.

Never mind.. you are so devoutly a follower of whatever your belief is, that no matter what anyone says, you deserve the Earth, Sun, AND moon... you should be able to have everything your heart desires and never have any side effects or disadvantages of any sort... I'm done with you.

[Syllph]

What is your highest level toon again?? Because I have seen Barb's hit for over 2K on pretty much every hit... and do most of that on any mob near his target as well... I have not seen any wizards/sorcs/clerics do that yet... They do large numbers yes, not nearly THAT large... No, they go "FINGER!" and mob dies or saves...

Really?

I see that on nearly every single High level caster AOE. In fact with Energy Burst I'm seeing 10k+ to every mob in the room. It's cute that the Barb can do 2k to one mob on a crit, but casters do that on every high damage spell and many of those are AOE.

Have you never seen Fly-by-Attack, Energy Burst, or Dragon Breath? AOE attacks that easily do 8-13k.

chain lighting doing 3k to about 6 mobs, Polar Ray (Single Target) easily doing 3k, and don't even get me started with the goodness that comes from the procs from shiradi....

Just saying, might need to check your facts. If you've honestly never seen a single caster do "THAT" large as you put it, 2k really isn't special for a caster.

[Ape_Man]

Sorc energy bursts clear entire rooms.

Everything is Easy clears entire rooms full of Epic Elite Orange names.

Anyon thinking Adrenaline Manyshot was OP in comparison to some of the other stuff in this game is clueless.

[trog_star]

Hmmm... you seem to be new to... the english languaged? or to D&D? Maybe Both?

not sure if your in the right place mate.
you realize were playing DDO, not D&D?

they are totally different critters.

[zwiebelring]

The linked 'yes' in question was in reply to a question that asks is it meant to work with ranged... my point all along has been devil's advocate: Do not get so tied up in thinking they absolute mean BOWS and XBOWS that you get your hopes up, and therefore IF they only mean THROWING, you do not get all butt-hurt over it.

There is a VERY real possibility that the severely ambiguous term, 'Ranged' could mean only throwing... of course, it could mean a blanket, "ALL ranged"... but then All Ranged = Bows, Xbows, Thrown, Ray Spells, etc... So, is adrenaline then supposed to help my melee Palemaster run up, beat something for a while, then jump back and fire a Disintegration spell? (Is a ray, has to HIT the enemy first, so therefore, a Ranged Attack)... Is that covered as well?

"Expect the worst, hope for the best"... Expect it will only mean Thrown... if it does, then no problems... If it works on ALL ranged, then be pleasantly surprised and happy! But don't throw all your eggs in one basket and complain/moan/b**** until the devs give in, or worse, they don't and you rage quit because of something dumb that you could have approached differently.

You are discussing a total different level of this change. To quantify the loss of this feature you have to compare dps of all classes and maybe some of the most accalimed hybrid ranged dps builds.

Till then, the answer to *Is it needed to have Adrenalin work with ranged combat?* has all personal opinion attached to it. It is clear that FoTW is a melee focused destiny, and more precisely for Barbarians as its very base. But every destiny has features, which give benefit to all kind of characters and are not attached to special class features. So, even with the clear indication of who will benefit the most from Adrenalin, it could be used for other characters.

Everybody who is honest about game balance should be aware that balance does not mean *buffing* everytime. Actually, claiming buffs for everyone will bring either equal characters with no diversity (looking at the common splits of classes in some hybrids gives a trend already) or destroy game balance at all, because power of casters and mundane classes does not increase equally.

The options for Rangers seem to be really dim, the recognition of how the game is played and what do the players want is somehow broken. Maximum dps is wanted everywhere, the developpers obviously think differently. But well, that does not help anybody since Shiradi does not support reliable dps and the 1 destiny for reliable dps is for melees only regarding its various active features. Restrictions over restrictions.

I am a fan of diversity and options. I am all for a more dps focused destiny for ranged combat. I am not a fan of powergamers who disguise their powercreep with argues about class balance and game balance, just because their choice does not have the highest dps or most uber feature combination. Mundane classes get power by the amount of choices for their toons, regarding feats, PrE and multiclassing.

But, not every choice will survive in endgame and that is why only a few ideas (and thus choices) are viable. Which is - again - a restriction. Is it really so bad to have Adrenalin work with ranged combat? Right now I'd say, no, in the future it may be. Till then fix the **** thing .

p.s.:
One argument disguised as balancing is that stupid one where someone says something about the origins of DDO and someone else justifies all powercreep by *It is not DnD. Get over it/totally different critters...* and the like. The other one is the continous compare to casters. Magic users should always be more powerful than mundane classes. You have to accept that a caster will deal 20k dmg and a melee won't.

[jsm123]

Bleh