We've angered the devs

[tralfaz81]

No lotteries for us :P

[Memnir]

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[Kingargon2]

The devs need to stop doing pointless stuff and fix the game. When they add something like "Repair Weapon Dammage" so we no longer have to worry about perminate weapon dammage. They make another part of the game COMPLETLY pointless.

[bradleyforrest]

The devs need to stop doing pointless stuff and fix the game. When they add something like "Repair Weapon Dammage" so we no longer have to worry about perminate weapon dammage. They make another part of the game COMPLETLY pointless.

You do realize that the devs that create content aren't the same devs that work on the code to fix bugs, right?

[taurean430]

Not sure if this is relevant, but I did just enter the 'Are You Experienced' lottery a few moments ago after reading the OP. It appears to be functioning at this time?

[smatt]

You do realize that the devs that create content aren't the same devs that work on the code to fix bugs, right?

This statement isn't always true..... And most certainly isn't accurate with the DDO team.

[alvarego]

You do realize that the devs that create content aren't the same devs that work on the code to fix bugs, right?

Even if this were true, that noone of us probably knows, you realize that you can move the devs that create buggy content to fix the bugs they made themselves in previous releases, right?

[thouston]

You do realize that the devs that create content aren't the same devs that work on the code to fix bugs, right?

this could be part of turbines problem.

it has been my experience that,
if you have to correct your own mistakes,
you are more inclined to avoid mistakes.

[donfilibuster]

Even if this were true, that noone of us probably knows, you realize that you can move the devs that create buggy content to fix the bugs they made themselves in previous releases, right?

Well we know bits from what they have said here and there, such that QA has its own team and schedule.
This is the case in big corporations, they dun really move people from dept. to dept. without orders from above.
With above probably being WB who is more than eager to sell the said gimmicks in the store than suffle the devs.

Unfortunately, this might mean, tho agree we dun know, that the QA and the content makers are not connected.
The new stuffs born bugged and the QA can only work via the bug queue, which is why we can't have good things.

Another official bit is the art designers are separate, the people making cosmetic kits and pets and store stuff is separate, and so on.
Which is why there's always someone quick to note they are separate teams, but ofc we want the bugs fixed no matter how.

The other issue we learned is the works are or were made in advance by a looong term, months before release.
That means the stuff that was released before Major Mal said the QA was working on bugs was already on the way to lama.
And bugged it came indeed. Faint hopes but, by that logic the things they are working at right now will be less bugged, gotta see to believe.

[MrkGrismer]

I gots lotteries. Have had every day this week.

[OldCoaly]

You do realize that the devs that create content aren't the same devs that work on the code to fix bugs, right?

Bradley, this is not the case.

It is true that there are different departments for Artwork, Content, Systems, Concept Art, 3D art, Animation, FX Art, Technical Art,. Audio, Video, Technology Platform, Game Platform, Release Engineering, QA, ECommerce, Web Testing, Operations, Data Services, Infrastructure, Strategy, Business Intelligence, Online Technology, Live Support, Digital Publishing/Marketing, Communications, eCommerce, Administration, and some others.

There is no "Bug Fixing" department. QA identifies problems and communicates their existence to the departments they identify as most likely to be able to make the necessary corrections.


It might be true that the people who developed the "Fix Permanent Damage Ointment" are not the ones that created yesterday's login issues. It might not be true - the people who know won't disclose this to us.

What is true is that the players PERCEIVE that resources could be better allocated by addressing things that are important to them than by developing store items that very few have been requesting.


Turbine does know what it is doing. They are aware of industry best practices.

Nearly every change in the game is seen by multiple eyes before it goes into production.

At Turbine, we generally have another engineer review code changes at the author's desk prior to checking the code into revision control. Occasionally, the change affects multiple systems and several reviewers are solicited. Often, an engineer will spot his or her own flaws while explaining the code changes to someone else. Because the code is being reviewed at the author's desk, criticism can be given constructively; code reviews held in a conference room with a sheaf of printouts can feel combative to the author. The list of changes spotted by the reviewer are noted either inline or in a separate file, then addressed prior to check-in. The peer-review process has an added benefit: it encourages knowledge sharing; more than one person has visibility into any system we write.

Turbine knows how to get it right.

If it were important enough to the people who are creating content to do so without introducing additional problems, they would do so.

Somehow, the current model is seen to be more efficient overall than one where things are done correctly the first time.

[AZgreentea]

Since the web site issues earlier this week (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...89#post4679989) I get a grey screen when there are no new lotteries to enter. I still see new lotteries, though. I put in for two this morning.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Bradley, this is not the case.

It is true that there are different departments for Artwork, Content, Systems, Concept Art, 3D art, Animation, FX Art, Technical Art,. Audio, Video, Technology Platform, Game Platform, Release Engineering, QA, ECommerce, Web Testing, Operations, Data Services, Infrastructure, Strategy, Business Intelligence, Online Technology, Live Support, Digital Publishing/Marketing, Communications, eCommerce, Administration, and some others.

There is no "Bug Fixing" department. QA identifies problems and communicates their existence to the departments they identify as most likely to be able to make the necessary corrections.


It might be true that the people who developed the "Fix Permanent Damage Ointment" are not the ones that created yesterday's login issues. It might not be true - the people who know won't disclose this to us.

What is true is that the players PERCEIVE that resources could be better allocated by addressing things that are important to them than by developing store items that very few have been requesting.

This actually makes sense, which is so rare on these forums that it needs to be noted.

Turbine does know what it is doing. They are aware of industry best practices.

Nearly every change in the game is seen by multiple eyes before it goes into production.



Turbine knows how to get it right.

If it were important enough to the people who are creating content to do so without introducing additional problems, they would do so.

Somehow, the current model is seen to be more efficient overall than one where things are done correctly the first time.

Rather than stopping while you are ahead, you then give us this.

Turbine is totally clueless. It may be "aware of industry best practices", but its doubtful they are following them. Yesterday's "patch" was a perfect example.

Turbine was patching its code because it released a bug filled mess in update 14 and 15. Its bad enough that they are still fixing issues with update 14, which was released all the way back in June. Its even worse that they didn't bother to test the patch sufficiently, with the result being that the game servers were either down or unstable for roughly 16 hours yesterday.

Most people have no understanding how much of the US infrastructure is computer controlled. Telephones, banking, electrical, stock trading, the list is virtually endless. Imagine for a moment what the US would look like if the computerized portions of those industries followed Turbine's quality practices....

Certainly, we can't have graphic artists fixing software bugs. However, there is no reason why any competent programmer working at Turbine can't be assigned to fix software bugs. If they can't pick up a piece of code, analyze it, and fix problems in it then Turbine has some fairly significant issues it needs to deal with.

[squishwizzy]

Bradley, this is not the case.

It is true that there are different departments for Artwork, Content, Systems, Concept Art, 3D art, Animation, FX Art, Technical Art,. Audio, Video, Technology Platform, Game Platform, Release Engineering, QA, ECommerce, Web Testing, Operations, Data Services, Infrastructure, Strategy, Business Intelligence, Online Technology, Live Support, Digital Publishing/Marketing, Communications, eCommerce, Administration, and some others.

There is no "Bug Fixing" department. QA identifies problems and communicates their existence to the departments they identify as most likely to be able to make the necessary corrections.

True.

What is true is that the players PERCEIVE that resources could be better allocated by addressing things that are important to them than by developing store items that very few have been requesting.

Actually, it is an unfortunate trend in business - and especially in software - to assume that the customer is an clueless idiot. The reality is that most customers are not idiots, and sometimes have a better grasp of what's wrong with a company or product than the people on the inside of said company or product as they do not have the level of emotional of financial investment in either entity.

The assumption that perception is different from reality only applies to things like politics where someone is trying to sell you an sh*t sandwich (or shove it down your throat and convince you that you like it). Customers actually *use* the product. They are a very good gauge to follow with it comes to the quality of that product.

Turbine does know what it is doing. They are aware of industry best practices.

Nearly every change in the game is seen by multiple eyes before it goes into production.

Turbine knows how to get it right.

And this is the comment that prompted me to ignore my self-imposed posting ban.

I've got well over 20 years of hard-core software development experience, in the business arena, in multiple business sectors. Let me tell you this outright: a list of "best practices" doesn't exist. Period. I have no idea where you get this from, but it is a total and complete fabrication.

Over the years I've seen development trends come and go, and they have a life expectancy of maybe 5 years. Then some idiot comes up with something new that is supposed to improve quality, improve time to delivery, and eliminate the problems that the LAST fad supposedly overlooked. And it never pans out (which is why something new comes along about every 5 years).

Mind you, I am not talking about technology. I'm talking about how you control how the end result of your labor gets from concept to marketplace. It is a pretty universal concept.

Every idiot with a word processor writes about this stuff, and comes up with a new way of doing things (so they can sell books). But the concept of "best practices" is a total myth.

If best practices were being followed, do you REALLY think Turbine would have had to drop the servers yesterday evening to apply a hotfix so that people could transition from one game area to another? Really?

You want to know what "best practices" really are? It's real simple: you hire good people, you give them a certain amount of flexibility in doing their job, you hold them accountable when they screw up, and most importantly: YOU DEMAND THAT THEY PRODUCE QUALITY WORK! Period. That's "best practices" the old school way. Oh yeah, and it works virtually every time it is tried.

More importantly, if you have good people, you don't rush to market with an incomplete or defective product because, well, you'll look like a complete bunch of incompetent idiots. That too is is the old-school method of best practices. So the guys whose pay grade is above the Devs...yeah, they share a large portion of the blame as well.

More importantly, the paying customer tends to use some pretty revolutionary old-school buying practices: they don't generally buy defective products. They make a trade-off based on what they get for their money. In short: virtually no one is going to buy a Yugo for the price of a BMW (Lexus, whatever) and put up with the the vehicle not starting, the doors falling off, or with a radio that only works on Wednesdays.

If Turbine "knows" how to get it right, people wouldn't be complaining about the same frickin' bugs they've been seeing for the last two years now (ladder bug anyone?). Sorry. You are just plain, flat wrong.

Now while I may sound a little harsh on this subject, this is something that really irks me, because it is not isolated to Turbine. It happens a lot - and I do mean WAY more than you'd expect. Many people don't make an effort to produce something solid (though there are a few of us out there that take a certain amount of pride in their work), and it has been an increasing trend in software development circles. So people create these inane development processes, call them "best practices" and things never seem to get any better.

If it were important enough to the people who are creating content to do so without introducing additional problems, they would do so.

Somehow, the current model is seen to be more efficient overall than one where things are done correctly the first time.

Please tell me that your post was a joke. Otherwise, I really have to throw a penalty flag for a pile of BS on the firld of play...

I see this sort of nonsense all the time, and it generally comes from an organization who takes a software developer and throws them at a problem thinking that a developer is like a cog or sprocket in a machine. They also tend to hire their talent on the cheap. The end result is what you're seeing with DDO.

You get what you pay for. Oh, and developers are not drones: they are talent. They need to be groomed, they need to gather experience with the product, and if they are morons early into the game, it does not save you money to simply keep them around as low-cost labor. They end up doing WAY more harm than good. I've seen this up-front and personal too many times over the course of my career.

Now I could go on about an application's architecture, and how to create something where new development can have a certain amount of isolation with existing code, but that would probably be more of a snoozer than what I've already written. Suffice to say, I've done that before.

Oh, and +1 (x1000) to the person who suggested that the people who make new content be forced to fix bugs. Early in my career I discovered that the best way to avoid bugs is to not make them in the first place. That philosophy came about because I got really sick and tired for fixing the mess that I created, but also really got sick and tired of picking up someone else's mess. This was further enhanced with any number of customers breathing down my neck because they purchased a product that was assumes to be pretty reliable, and they found out quickly that it wasn't.

It doesn't take a huge leap in logic to figure out that they best way to avoid an irate customer is to deliver what you said you'd deliver (delivering something with bugs is not delivering on a promise - sorry, kiddies), in the expected timeframe. Doing it right the first time avoids all of that stress and hostility. Ergo, I test the **** out of stuff before delivering something live.

Consequently, I work across from someone who is learning that fact of life right now...and he/she has over a decade-and-a-half worth of development experience (plus a Masters degree). Reality...it can be a b*tch sometimes...

Ok, rant off...the ban is back on...

[sebastianosmith]

Early in my career I discovered that the best way to avoid bugs is to not make them in the first place. That philosophy came about because I got really sick and tired for fixing the mess that I created, but also really got sick and tired of picking up someone else's mess.

Amen, brother! There are not many things in life more irritating than fixing someone else's code. It's like crawling inside a big, giant bag of crazy.

I've always considered coding to be a subtractive process, much like sculpting stone. Take away everything that doesn't work and all that's left must work. I find that ideology leads to far fewer errors.

[kingfisher]

Turbine knows how to get it right.

lol

[Expalphalog]

Actually, it is an unfortunate trend in business - and especially in software - to assume that the customer is an clueless idiot.

I personally believe that this trend (which is just as prevalent in Retail as it is in Software) is an example of the old law: "**** rolls downhill."

Upper Management assumes that Middle Management are clueless idiots, lest they would be Upper Management by now.
Middle Management assumes that Lower Management are clueless idiots, lest they would have desk jobs by now.
Lower Management assumes that the Trade Workers are clueless idiots, lest they would have quit by now.
Trade Workers assume that Front End Employees are clueless idiots, because their job requires less technical skill.
Front End Employees assume that customers are clueless idiots, because they are the only people over whom the employee wields any power and the weight of all this feces is too much to bear alone.

Strangely, this trend starts at the very top with the CEO, who usually actually is a clueless idiot.

[Brendae]

Ooh, speculation is fun.

I'm another software engineer with 10+ years of experience weighing in.

I wouldn't say that DDO is plagued by any more issues than any other 6+ year old piece of highly complex code with multiple integrated modules (Client, server, website, billing.) that has been worked on by different teams, that has been repurposed (From subscription to hybrid payment model.) which has tight deadlines for delivering massive amounts of new content.

Cut turbine some slack, they have had a few huge releases this year in a highly challenging environment. Nobody is trying to cause issues.

[teh_meh]

Ooh, speculation is fun.

I'm another software engineer with 10+ years of experience weighing in.

I wouldn't say that DDO is plagued by any more issues than any other 6+ year old piece of highly complex code with multiple integrated modules (Client, server, website, billing.) that has been worked on by different teams, that has been repurposed (From subscription to hybrid payment model.) which has tight deadlines for delivering massive amounts of new content.

Cut turbine some slack, they have had a few huge releases this year in a highly challenging environment. Nobody is trying to cause issues.

+1 for shining your light on this realm of duh. It's a black hole of hatred but the effort is appreciated.