What does a tank need?

[wax_on_wax_off]

So I'm thinking about a tank build but I'm not sure how good it's damage mitigation and other qualities are in comparison to others.

I figure the best measure is an overall one.

As follows:
(1-incorporeality %)*(1-concealment)*(1-dodge %)*(1-AC miss chance)*(1-PRR)*(1-other % DR)=overall reduction.

Current idea manages about 31% overall damage with lots of room to improve. What overall reduction is needed for various difficulties? Currently I'm not planning on EE, just want to have some fun in EN/EH content and if there is proof of concept maybe apply it in an EE context with some tweaking.

HP? Not enough but I'll work on that.
Saves? Very high. 40-50 on all (or is 40 not high anymore?)
Threat? Is this even important anymore with the 1000% and 80% available in US?

Any input appreciated.

[sirgog]

IMO:

EE: You should be able to survive (on average) 8-10 hits of 200 damage without external healing. A combination of HP, PRR, AC, Dodge% and self-healing can be used to meet this benchmark. Reflex save should be high 40s (Cometfalls suck and a lot of bosses have ~50 DC Cometfalls) and this will likely require twists.

EH: Any level 20+ character that has Toughness and isn't a super-squishy class.

EN: Anyone that isn't a hireling.

Threat isn't hard now as long as you keep swinging. If encounter mechanics force you to stop swinging, then warn people to also stop.

[wax_on_wax_off]

So;
.9*.8*.92*.95*.83=52% incoming letting a 1000 HP Barbarian survive 8-9 hits of 200. This is with ghostly item, cloud kill, uncanny dodge (4% iirc?), 4% dodge item, 5% miss hangs from AC (bosses still miss on 1's) and 30 PRR.

Is this really all that's needed to tank EE? Throw in a caster using that magister ability (+15 PRR), prowess planar Conflux (+12 or +15 PRR can't recall), heavy armour and some more dodge and you're set right?

What AC is needed to be useful vs raid bosses in EN/EH/EE?
Where would AC 80 get me?
AC 100?
AC 120?

Disclaimer: I'm currently not interested in nor do i generally condone barbarian tanks but just trying to clarify Sirgogs position before I consider my own.

[sephiroth1084]

Depends what you want to do WoWo...I think Numot's assessment is pretty accurate if you're tanking a boss, but if you're acting as party CC with intimidate and threat on more than one monster at a time, you probably want more of everything. I've taken that role on Ferrumrym with an AC of around 140 (at the time), PRR of about 110 (at the time), Dodge 3 or 4%, 1200 HP, and if I had more than a couple of enemies on me was in a fair bit of danger, but healable, and able to be effective CC for the group, unless we hit some lag, or I failed an untimely save, or some jackass ran off and needed targeted heals from the party healer, taking focus off of me. Even then, with regenerating Lay On Hands, I could keep myself up for a while.

As for what to shoot for? Hard to say. It's difficult pinning down the numbers for monster attack bonuses in EE, and with diminishing returns on AC, it's a tough call as to when you're investing too much for too little return. Ditto for PRR, though the benefits are more easily recognized.

[Diyon]

Depends what you want to do WoWo...I think Numot's assessment is pretty accurate if you're tanking a boss, but if you're acting as party CC with intimidate and threat on more than one monster at a time, you probably want more of everything. I've taken that role on Ferrumrym with an AC of around 140 (at the time), PRR of about 110 (at the time), Dodge 3 or 4%, 1200 HP, and if I had more than a couple of enemies on me was in a fair bit of danger, but healable, and able to be effective CC for the group, unless we hit some lag, or I failed an untimely save, or some jackass ran off and needed targeted heals from the party healer, taking focus off of me. Even then, with regenerating Lay On Hands, I could keep myself up for a while.

As for what to shoot for? Hard to say. It's difficult pinning down the numbers for monster attack bonuses in EE, and with diminishing returns on AC, it's a tough call as to when you're investing too much for too little return. Ditto for PRR, though the benefits are more easily recognized.

At least with PRR, you always know it's working, except when you don't get hit, in which case it's irrelevant. Makes a scaling difference for those huge hits that sometimes get past everything else, reduces the spike damage you'll take from attacks.

[emptysands]

At least with PRR, you always know it's working, except when you don't get hit, in which case it's irrelevant. Makes a scaling difference for those huge hits that sometimes get past everything else, reduces the spike damage you'll take from attacks.

Min PRR in US defensive mode will be:

20 iCE (LD2 twist)
15 Legendary SM
10 Heed no pain
20 Unbreakable stance
15 Large Shield/ISM
=80

+10 Tower Shield/ISM
15 Sigil of spell warding (M1 twist)
15 Conflux
09 Cloak of the Bear


PrE:
30 SD/DoS II+Defensive stance
or
40 SD/DoS III+Defensive stance

Armor:
13 Light armour evasion build (Half BAB (19+3)/2 + 2)
or
26 Heavy armour build (BAB + 6)

So 200 max for heavy armour + tower shield build

PRR/DMit
080 is 35.91%
100 is 41.21%
120 is 45.54%
130 is 47.40%
140 is 49.08%
145 is 49.86%
146 is 50.02%
150 is 50.61%
160 is 51.98%
170 is 53.23%
180 is 54.35%
185 is 54.87%
195 is 55.37%
200 is 56.29%


Given the above, 140-145 PRR is about the sweet spot in the power curve. Easy on a light armor build:
80 Base
13 Armour
40 SD/DoS III
15 Conflux
=148

The difference between 148 and 200 is about 6% DMit or on 200 dmg per hit 18 HP - unlike to be a bit factor.

For AC/Dodge you want to plan to handle TOHITs in the range of 100 to 200. So for example 138AC/11% Dodge [1] will be hit about 35% of the time at 100 TOHIT. Factor another 3.5% off for ghostly.

If you can get one heal every 2secs for 500 HP.

If they are hitting for 200 per swing, and miss 68% of the time. Then at 50% DMit, each swing hits for 100 damage. So more than 5 hits exceeds your incoming healing.

At 68% miss rate, you don't want more than 15 swings per 2sec.

This is all physical damage. You'll also need high saves to avoid spell damage.


[1] http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=390892 - tried to put a chart together to make it faster to eyeball the various zones.

[MeatSheild]

I think heal amp is important as well. If the healer can keep you up with just thier free heals (fvs capstone/aura) and scrolls (or non-heal based toons with just scrolls) it leaves them open to do more things with thier blue bar.

Intim is nice to have just incase you die/can't hold aggro.

High saves are great for those spells, boss tactical feats, poisins, and other nasty things the devs throw at us.

High hp is also a boon taking those hits is something you will do no matter how high your dmg mitigation.

Dmg mit is probly the most important thing and with all the diffrent ways to get this it can chew up alot of gear slots.

Incite is important but as you have pointed out its easy to get with out chewing up gear.

DPS is also important if your way low on this any rogue or barb will take what your trying to tank.

[sirgog]

I think heal amp is important as well. If the healer can keep you up with just thier free heals (fvs capstone/aura) and scrolls (or non-heal based toons with just scrolls) it leaves them open to do more things with thier blue bar.

Intim is nice to have just incase you die/can't hold aggro.

High saves are great for those spells, boss tactical feats, poisins, and other nasty things the devs throw at us.

High hp is also a boon taking those hits is something you will do no matter how high your dmg mitigation.

Dmg mit is probly the most important thing and with all the diffrent ways to get this it can chew up alot of gear slots.

Incite is important but as you have pointed out its easy to get with out chewing up gear.

DPS is also important if your way low on this any rogue or barb will take what your trying to tank.

I forgot to mention healing amp.

Healing amp is by far your best stat, so much so that with present game mechanics non-human non-halfelf tanks are just woefully behind. I keep expecting to see healing amp nerfed but as yet it still has escalating returns as you stack more and more of it.

Even dwarves and WF, the high Con, high HP races, are not even close.

As a bare minimum you need 200% incoming divine healing but 240% is very achieveable on a first life human (30% racial, 30% gloves, 20% TOD ring, 10% armor, 10% ship) and a multi-TR half-elf can hit 330%+.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I think heal amp is important as well. If the healer can keep you up with just thier free heals (fvs capstone/aura) and scrolls (or non-heal based toons with just scrolls) it leaves them open to do more things with thier blue bar.

Intim is nice to have just incase you die/can't hold aggro.

High saves are great for those spells, boss tactical feats, poisins, and other nasty things the devs throw at us.

High hp is also a boon taking those hits is something you will do no matter how high your dmg mitigation.

Dmg mit is probly the most important thing and with all the diffrent ways to get this it can chew up alot of gear slots.

Incite is important but as you have pointed out its easy to get with out chewing up gear.

DPS is also important if your way low on this any rogue or barb will take what your trying to tank.

These are nice ideas but how much of each value is needed?
Heal amp: 250%+?
Intim: 79-80 for most EE bosses right? Is lower useful? What exactly happens on failed intimidate checks?
Saves: 50 DC comet falls I hear? 40 in fort/will enough?
HP: 1000+ enough for EE? 900+?
Dmit: 70% mitigation enough? 80% better?
Incite/damage aka threat: 1000 DPS enough?

[sephiroth1084]

I forgot to mention healing amp.

Healing amp is by far your best stat, so much so that with present game mechanics non-human non-halfelf tanks are just woefully behind. I keep expecting to see healing amp nerfed but as yet it still has escalating returns as you stack more and more of it.

Even dwarves and WF, the high Con, high HP races, are not even close.

As a bare minimum you need 200% incoming divine healing but 240% is very achieveable on a first life human (30% racial, 30% gloves, 20% TOD ring, 10% armor, 10% ship) and a multi-TR half-elf can hit 330%+.

I honestly don't feel that that much amp is required.
I have 20% racial (human), 30% gloves (only recently, and was fine without for a long while), 20% ToD ring, 10% ship, 5% past life, and have had enough people comment disbelievingly on how easy Ferrumrym is to heal, and other, solid players turning to him for tanking duties that I'm fairly confident that that's sufficient, even without the 30% item. Obviously more is better, but I wouldn't say that a dwarf is too far behind to be a good choice, though I do think that they need to ensure that they are getting the other bonuses.

It is a shame that healing amp, and healing, in DDO are so ridiculously powerful. What was the turning point for this? I recall dwarves being touted as the best tanking race for a long time, but can't pinpoint the moment, or time period where humans eclipsed them entirely for the role.

These are nice ideas but how much of each value is needed?
Heal amp: 250%+?
Intim: 79-80 for most EE bosses right? Is lower useful? What exactly happens on failed intimidate checks?
Saves: 50 DC comet falls I hear? 40 in fort/will enough?
HP: 1000+ enough for EE? 900+?
Dmit: 70% mitigation enough? 80% better?
Incite/damage aka threat: 1000 DPS enough?

I know that we definitely are seeing Fort and Will DCs in the 50s. Failed a Will save on my paladin with a total of something like 54 a couple weeks ago (I haven't been on in a couple weeks, so I don't have more data to supply at present), and it feels like Ferrum fails more saves vs. Poison than he really should be with a Fort in the 50s, scraping 60. Certainly more than only on rolled 1s.

For EE, if you're a tank, I probably wouldn't be looking for aggro with under 1,000 HP, as that can get eaten up fast even with good mitigation. Whenever I get the desire to play again, I'll pop on Ferrumrym and wade through some EE content again and see how I fair with a 150+ AC, 150+ PRR, 4% Dodge, 1200+ HP, and see if I can get a solid group to do some experimentation...I know he can get buffed to close to 170/170 (does Inspire Heroics' Dodge skirt the max Dex bonus?).