Remove level range from Raids.

[Miow]

The problem is not folks being "afraid" to run raids at-level. The problem is that a significant portion of players continue to run the raids even at cap, out of necessity, in order to get their completions (and/or in-quest shinies). When the level cap was 20, this wasnt a real issue for endgame (or near endgame) raids. Now that the level cap has been bumped up 5 levels, it changes everything. The need to keep running those raids at cap hasnt changed, but the massive XP penalty to anyone else who is in those raids with them has gone up ALOT.

If you sever the LFM at 20 (as pre-EDs), you cut out a significant portion of your available players as well, since players are now sitting at 25 to get their EDs rather than at 20 while they also farm the raids for completions and shinies. This makes the raid take MUCH longer to fill, and also causes the 21+ crowd to get screwed out of running that particular raid in that group. Sure, they can start their own 21+ group, but we all know its aggravating to end up with competing LFMs.

Add to this the fact the devs are still trying to balance level penalties properly in the epic levels.

The SIMPLE solution is to treat all 20+ toons as 20 for purposes of quest level range, XP penalties, etc. (No, you dont disable their EDs, or de-level them, or any of the other nonsense I have seen proposed in the past). No more funky math and charts to track and no more worries about a lvl 25 joining a group at the last minute and borking the XP for everyone. If a lvl 20 was fine before, then a lvl 25 would have no greater impact on the XP than the 20 would. Sure, it means that a lvl 25 might end up running with sub-20 toons (in fact it would virtually guarantee it) with no XP penalty. But the XP penalty system was not designed with lvl 25 toons in mind.

And no this is not a proposal to do away with XP penalties entirely -- it would ONLY affect the endgame crowd, treating all epic toons as lvl 20. Dont bother with "slippery slope" arguments either; those only apply to the people who are foolish enough to propose them in the first place.

Yeppers this all the way.

[dterror]

The problem is not folks being "afraid" to run raids at-level. The problem is that a significant portion of players continue to run the raids even at cap, out of necessity, in order to get their completions (and/or in-quest shinies). When the level cap was 20, this wasnt a real issue for endgame (or near endgame) raids. Now that the level cap has been bumped up 5 levels, it changes everything. The need to keep running those raids at cap hasnt changed, but the massive XP penalty to anyone else who is in those raids with them has gone up ALOT.

If you sever the LFM at 20 (as pre-EDs), you cut out a significant portion of your available players as well, since players are now sitting at 25 to get their EDs rather than at 20 while they also farm the raids for completions and shinies. This makes the raid take MUCH longer to fill, and also causes the 21+ crowd to get screwed out of running that particular raid in that group. Sure, they can start their own 21+ group, but we all know its aggravating to end up with competing LFMs.

Add to this the fact the devs are still trying to balance level penalties properly in the epic levels.

The SIMPLE solution is to treat all 20+ toons as 20 for purposes of quest level range, XP penalties, etc. (No, you dont disable their EDs, or de-level them, or any of the other nonsense I have seen proposed in the past). No more funky math and charts to track and no more worries about a lvl 25 joining a group at the last minute and borking the XP for everyone. If a lvl 20 was fine before, then a lvl 25 would have no greater impact on the XP than the 20 would. Sure, it means that a lvl 25 might end up running with sub-20 toons (in fact it would virtually guarantee it) with no XP penalty. But the XP penalty system was not designed with lvl 25 toons in mind.

And no this is not a proposal to do away with XP penalties entirely -- it would ONLY affect the endgame crowd, treating all epic toons as lvl 20. Dont bother with "slippery slope" arguments either; those only apply to the people who are foolish enough to propose them in the first place.

One of the best suggestions for how to deal with it I've heard yet.

[danotmano1998]

The SIMPLE solution is to treat all 20+ toons as 20 for purposes of quest level range, XP penalties, etc..

You mean like they told us they were going to do?

Yeah, that would be great.

[varusso]

You mean like they told us they were going to do?

Yeah, that would be great.

Ive never seen a dev say that -- was it in the beta forums?
If they have made that declaration at some point, I would certainly like to see it followed-through. Sure, it would create a small issue with poweleveling toons up from 17~18, but it would also solve alot of other issues -- until they raise the level cap again, of course

We actually went through a similar adjustment back in the day in Asheron's Call. The level cap at the time was 126, and there were "steps" along the way with level ranges for toons to group. Finally, the players got it through the devs' heads that the power gap between lvl 80 toons and lvl 126 toons was minimal, but the XP curve and level spread was enormous. The devs then allowed all 80+ toons to group together without penalty, and it worked just fine.

I think a similar method could be applied here with 20+ toons.

[donfilibuster]

Ive never seen a dev say that -- was it in the beta forums?
If they have made that declaration at some point, I would certainly like to see it followed-through.

Think it was for the epic levels, to let 20s and 21s group with 24s and 25s.

That alone doesn't solve that raids are harder to fill for xp than before.
It'd take giving them epic difficulty and cease tuning the heroic difficulties to endgame players.

[moops]

Something needs to be done. Even Shroud LFMs accepting all levels take forever to fill. And I think I just saw my first HOX LFM in a month, and its been there for 30 mins so far with only a couple people in it.

With +3 tomes for sale in the store, and better random loot dropping not just endgame but all around, the incentive for these raids is virtually none.

[varusso]

Think it was for the epic levels, to let 20s and 21s group with 24s and 25s.

That alone doesn't solve that raids are harder to fill for xp than before.
It'd take giving them epic difficulty and cease tuning the heroic difficulties to endgame players.

If all 20+ toons were treated as 20, it would be the same as pre-EDs in terms of filling; if a lvl 20 toon was OK in the raid before, a lvl 21-25 would be fine as well. Giving them epic difficulties would give epic toons more options for XP runs, but for completions, they are going to continue to run them in heroic levels as before because they are easier (and they are JUST looking for completions) and there is a larger player pool because they can pull from heroic level toons to fill.

I would also like to see them separate heroic and epic repetition coutners (IE: when you run a heroic quest on epic, the two versions have separate counters, including first-time bonuses, BB, etc.). This would also help with the toons trying to run for XP post-epic.

AND I would like to see a raid-item system that allows you to accrue "points" (ala the Widget System in my sig) towards "buying" your epics, rather than the 20th completion system we have now. Running a raid on a higher dif (including the epic versions) would give more "points" to spend on your shinies of choice. This would provide extra incentive for players to run things more in tune with their levels -- which would also have the effect of dividing the epic/heroic crowd and possibly eliminate the need for 20+ merging, as the epic crowd would no longer be wiggling into sub-epic runs on a regular basis (assuming all raids were updated to include epic of course).

WOW used a similar system for purchasing "welfare epics" (PVP epics) back when I played. The PVP epic gear was different from normal raid epic gear, though, and was balanced more toward PVP than PVE. It gave people more options, and while it was still a grind, it was a targeted, measurable grind, rather than a random, luck-based grind. And you got to PICK the epic item you received, rather than a totally random drop. Personally, I prefer a carrot I can see and build toward at a measured pace rather than one that falls randomly out of the sky and may or may not be the one I wanted -- and more likely not.

EDIT: I finally got around to revising my original Widget looting system. For anyone interested, a link to the updated version is now in my sig.