Scalable Monster Type Hirelings

[Cyr]

Think onyx panther who can be summoned to be your level, level +1, or level +2.

Basically this idea is to have monster typed hirelings (MM rewards, ddostore, chain rewards, raid loot for different ones) which scale to your level.

The basics

• Item to summon a specific hireling with UI window to select if you want to summon the at level, +1 level, or +2 level version. Items can be put in hireling folders.
• Count as gold seal hirelings
• Each specific hireling consistently is built to perform a specific role or fit a particular theme regardless of the level it is summoned at
• Unlimited times that they can be summoned like onyx panther

Examples

• Sear - Fire Mephit Hireling
  
  • Summoned from 'Brazier of Fire Elemental Summoning' item
  • Counts as a sorc for dungeon scaling purposes
  • Function very similar to a dominated mephit (no mephit spawns from it though) with an additional hireling hotbar and some extra powers used automatically in it's attack rotation
  • Regens HP over time at a fairly high rate, but towards low end of HP total
  • Regens SP over time at a slower rate, stops automatically casting spells at 20% mana total threshold
  • Automatically uses fire based spells based upon it's level including burning hands, scorching ray, fireball, wall of fire, delayed blast fireball, incendary cloud, and meteor swarm Gains draconic incarnation abilities in epic level versions.
  • Hotbar clickable options include (varies based upon level): Resist Energy (Cold), Fire Shield (Hot), various fire based damage spells, Fire Vulnerability clickie ala fire savant, fire savant clickies (as savant abilities for low SP cost/higher cooldown)...Some of these protective spells are replaced at higher levels for example by Sear wearing items replicating their effects (ie resistance 30 versus cold).
• King of a Long Forgotten Empire - Mummy Hireling
  
  • counts as a monk for dungeon scaling purposes
  • Strong melee attacker, uses handwraps which restore hp at higher levels
  • Basic Melee based mummy for automatic attacks with stunning blow, unbalncing strike, stunning fist, and improved sunder randomly interspersed based upon level...has evasion and improved evasion at higher levels
  • DC of despair aura scales based upon level as does special attack dcs including mummy curse
  • Clickies include (varies based upon level): Dark monk curse finisher (no need to prep it always available, but on long cooldown), touch of death, quivering palm, improved trip, and diplomacy.
  • Typical Undead (healed by negative energy, hurt by positive energy....) Traits
  • LE Alignment, summoning with a good character gives a negative level while summoned
  • No pot chugging like other hirelings.
• Hurastex Ghost Walker - Hobgoblin Hireling
  
  • Counts as a Cleric for dungeon scaling purposes
  • Hobgoblin shaman type for typical automatic attacks/spells
  • Strong Healing, quickened healing magics at min level possible for this
  • Aggresive like larafay, lots of offensive magic mixed with healing, but quickened heals take precedence over other automatics
  • Not terribly strong defenses
  • Clickies include typical clerical defensive magics, a raise spell, a mass cure type spell (quickened), and a single target healing spell (non quickened).
• Steel Eater - Rust Monster Hireling
  
  • counts as a fighter for dungeon scaling purposes
  • attacks like normal rust monsters, has large bonus damage versus warforged and other metal based monsters
  • deals bonus acid damage with attacks based upon level
  • uses attacks which debuff enemies fort/ac/damage such as sunder, improved sunder, destruction weapon effect....based upon level as automatics and/or clickies
  • no self healing, but fairly good AC and PRR to compensate slightly
  • pretty basic anti-construct fighter type hireling

[Cyr]

Velak Dead Girl's Thrall

• Arcane Skelton
• Summoned from "Dead Girl's Grimiore"
• counts as a wizard for dungeon scaling purposes
• PM typed spell selection for automatics including death arua/lesser death aur/negative energy blast, PM clickies abilities automatic use
• typical undead traits
• clickies (varies based upon level) include various necromancy based spells and electric based spells
• agro magnet due to automatic auras
• great at aoe healing of undead including party PMs

Jeets Halfling Hireling

• counts as a rogue for dungeon scaling purposes
• Summoned from "Flask of the Good Stuff"
• typical rogue attacks including improved deception/deception items, radiance weapons, and other sneak attack enabling items depending upon level
• large sneak attack dps
• weak physical defenses besides good reflex save and some dodge
• clickies include...open locks, assassinate, disable device, search
• basically your scalable rogue hireling for trap purposes
• will occasionally throw heal scrolls on self at higher levels

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

Muck
Gray ooze
summoned from Glowing ooze pile
Class type: Barbarian
Various ooze like abilities like: split (reduce hp by 50% for 15 seconds and create a clone of self)
fire and cold invulnerability idk



/signed

[licho]

/signed
This is actually good stuff.
Its something fun. It fills the need for "cohorts" or henchmen.
Its good income for store. There is no moral hazard, its just a hire, it dont give you unfair game advantage.

[taurean430]

Undermines the entire concept of arcane/divine summoning I think. Summoning which is woefully underpowered to begin with.

Nice writeup but /notsigned.

[Khatzhas]

Undermines the entire concept of arcane/divine summoning I think. Summoning which is woefully underpowered to begin with.

I think the point is that they are hirelings, not summons. They do not interfere with arcane/divine summoning, they will affect dungeon scaling like any other hireling, unlike summons.

[Brennie]

I love the idea of having scaling hireling items a-la Onyx Panther. However, given that the Onyx Panther came from a preorder, I'm guessing that if such items were ever introduced, they'd likely be store-only (especially considering that's where GoldSeals permanently reside anyway)...

[donfilibuster]

For the record, d&d cohorts can be monster creatures, using their "effective level".
Granted most would still be from playable races because of class levels, but monsters make good exotic cohorts.

Should also note that there's an option in PnP to keep calling the same summon, rather than just "one of their type".
This allow you to pass equipment to your favorite summon, thus if hirelings can be improved so could summons.

Also, DDO lacks in-party NPCs, which are often used in campaigns to fill or help the party.
We only have tag-along NPCs and otherwise static NPCs tied to quests.
It could very well be that some could be found in form of rares and get befriended.
They will then be called in the same way of the panther.

[Rian]

<snip>

I like the idea of it. The only way to obtain any of them should be either DDO store or specific quests associated with the monster with a fairly low drop chance.

For example, Sear should only come out of Co6. Maybe as an end reward, or solely out of a chest that is in the quest were Sear is.

[sirgog]

I like the idea of it. The only way to obtain any of them should be either DDO store or specific quests associated with the monster with a fairly low drop chance.

For example, Sear should only come out of Co6. Maybe as an end reward, or solely out of a chest that is in the quest were Sear is.

Co6 has a lot of obscure optionals it could drop in, or it could be a reward for doing everything associated with the pack on elite (Grey Moon chain, Co6 chain, all optionals, all rare encounters, all explorer points).

[taurean430]

I think the point is that they are hirelings, not summons. They do not interfere with arcane/divine summoning, they will affect dungeon scaling like any other hireling, unlike summons.

And summons have no control bar like hirelings. They also cannot manipulate objects. They are better than the options given to divines/arcanes for summoning and will be more powerful.

I'm not of the opinion that giving this ability to any character class is a good thing. And a minimal scaling increase doesn't compensate the difference.

[sirgog]

Thinking a little more about this, one issue that comes up is monster attack speed.

Consider one of the hardest hitting bosses in the game, the Dun'robar Matron on Epic Elite. She swings for ~260, crits through a lot of fortification for ~750, and has a 360 degree active cleave attack. Sounds like something you'd want as a melee DPS hireling.

Yet she has far lower DPS than high level players do. We don't hit for 250, but we swing 3-4 times faster than she does. Really the only reason you'd want the Matron in place of a real player is her silly high HP - and this is a CR 51 monster.

This is even more the case for monsters that don't share PC models. Watch how slowly a scorpion attacks for one. This would be a problem with this proposal that would need to be addressed IMO.

[Brennie]

And summons have no control bar like hirelings. They also cannot manipulate objects. They are better than the options given to divines/arcanes for summoning and will be more powerful.

I'm not of the opinion that giving this ability to any character class is a good thing. And a minimal scaling increase doesn't compensate the difference.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Hirelings and summon only share cursory similarities. Each have restictions and drawback that put them on entirely different levels.

Moreover, you're arguing against something that already exists. Players already have the ability to purchase hirelings and gold-seal hirelings. This suggestion wouldn't *add* any more power to the game than players already have at their disposal, it would just create new hireligns that are 1) Useable for multiple levels (Rather than buying a different hireling whenever you level up), 2) Permanent, a-la Onyx Panther, and 3) Thematic (I assume they would be equivalent in power to equal-level hirelings, they would just be of various monstrous races and would have abilities themed around their race rather than their class).

Again, please keep in mind that hirelings: Use up parties that are almost always better used by actual players, have "passable" AI but cannot perform any complex tasks that you might need a human for, cannot be used in raid groups or in raid areas/quests, are able to be used at the same time as summons. If anything, you should be arguing against Gems of Oceans Winds, Shard of Xoriat, Epic Wolf Whistle etc. which truly DO allow characters to summon monsters exactly like casters, and often more powerfully than casters (Though casters can use them too, of course)

[taurean430]

You're comparing apples and oranges. Hirelings and summon only share cursory similarities. Each have restictions and drawback that put them on entirely different levels.

I'm curious as to what you think the restrictions and drawbacks are? Particularly since you feel the need to take my opinion to task.

Moreover, you're arguing against something that already exists. Players already have the ability to purchase hirelings and gold-seal hirelings.

They do, and their power level is nowhere near what is mentioned in the write up. Combining increased power and hireling functionality(control bar/ability to manipulate objects) is bad people. Giving that ability to all classes is a double whammy.

This suggestion wouldn't *add* any more power to the game than players already have at their disposal, it would just create new hireligns that are 1) Useable for multiple levels (Rather than buying a different hireling whenever you level up), 2) Permanent, a-la Onyx Panther, and 3) Thematic (I assume they would be equivalent in power to equal-level hirelings, they would just be of various monstrous races and would have abilities themed around their race rather than their class).

I disagree. One of the preceptive elements regarding summons is the lack of control given to them. This suggestion if implemented allows controllable, more powerful versions that can affect outcomes and further trivialize the game. One example of a great many being players using them to bypass obstacles by carrying soulstones while stuck in 'teleportation' mode.

Again, please keep in mind that hirelings: Use up parties that are almost always better used by actual players, have "passable" AI but cannot perform any complex tasks that you might need a human for, cannot be used in raid groups or in raid areas/quests, are able to be used at the same time as summons. If anything, you should be arguing against Gems of Oceans Winds, Shard of Xoriat, Epic Wolf Whistle etc. which truly DO allow characters to summon monsters exactly like casters, and often more powerfully than casters (Though casters can use them too, of course)

The examples you mention here are things mimicing spells that produce non controllable summons. Since there is no control bar, they are not easily usuable to bypass obstacles and quest objectives. As it stands now, one can use hirelings of both flavors in ways that are questionable. The hireling AI is poor, but can be controlled via the bar. They are not more powerful than various summons at level until you are near or at heroic level cap. In other words there is a limit to what you can get determined by the level of the character doing the summoning. The control bar is not granted to summoners due to the significant increase in power it would provide in the hands of a skilled player. Yet this argument and others lie in support of adding mimicked summons with controllable ai and abilities in the hands of non casters. I believe this is unbalancing and favors non casters primarily.

Casting classes already have the ability to summon. They are limited severely in both the scope of what they can summon, and in the control of what they summon. It seems to me this is for a reason. Supporting a change that would allow any class to summon more powerful versions of hirelings is something I cannot do. Select classes have access to control bar summons, and their power is multiplied compared to other classes because of this.

[Worldcrafter]

Something doesn't sit right with me with the "one and done" principle behind them; it just feels off to me. Scaling with unlimited uses seems a bit much. The panther was a novelty that didn't scale, and you had to pay for it by buying the expansion; asking for "panther plus" probably would come along with a hefty price tag.

I could get behind the idea for rare drops or end chain rewards if they scaled, but had limited time - three hours maybe, counts as a gold seal hireling. Special long time for being special hirelings.

Alternately, maybe make all of the "source" items into an airship amenity. Takes a small ship hook, or particularly useful/entertaining ones, a large ship hook. You talk to the "shrine," it gives you a summon emblem/statue/what have you, and you can pop it in the dungeon. They act like normal hireling scrolls (lasts for 1 hour when popped, pauses in town, only one summoned per party), but disappear when you log off, like artificer bolts. You could make it a rare drop that automatically gets 30 day duration when added to the hook point.

Disregarding my apprehensions and suggested alternatives for a moment, I do have a question for Cyr. With your initial suggestion, would these scaling hirelings be BtC, BtA, free for trade, or bind on use?

Edit
Following along the initial suggestion ideas, how about a golem of some sort? Maybe as a rare novelty, throw in a Dancing weapon somewhere in the mix.

[Khatzhas]

And summons have no control bar like hirelings. They also cannot manipulate objects. They are better than the options given to divines/arcanes for summoning and will be more powerful.

I'm not of the opinion that giving this ability to any character class is a good thing. And a minimal scaling increase doesn't compensate the difference.

Their actual power is something that can and will be adjusted. I don't believe that the OP is asking for anything significantly more powerful than current hirelings, so the example numbers given should be scaled to bring them in line with other hirelings.