A Cleric Tied to a chair

[Khatzhas]

shakes head sadly. This is the problem, as long as some players let themselves be used and abused and think its all in the name of team play we divine warriors will never be free.

What did he say that made you think that he was being "used and abused"?

[Mubjon]

What did he say that made you think that he was being "used and abused"?

Anytime that someone that runs a healbot believes that the cleric is the problem in a group where melees are being abusive, that is cause for concern.


Those that healbot are doing a disservice to the DDO community as a whole.

[erikbozelie]

Anytime that someone that runs a healbot believes that the cleric is the problem in a group where melees are being abusive, that is cause for concern.


Those that healbot are doing a disservice to the DDO community as a whole.

thats kindof of an overkill statement, sometimes healspots are needed.
for example epic elite raids. which are hard. i doubt you have enough sp to dot and nuke, even if your do... you probally dont want global cooldown from the offensive spells incase the tank hp takes a leap of faith towards the bottom.

for example go do epic lord of blades elite, without someone focussing on the tank .
for most content its not needed though.

i got a healbot, but only play him when a healbot is needed.

[Mubjon]

thats kindof of an overkill statement, sometimes healspots are needed.
for example epic elite raids. which are hard. i doubt you have enough sp to dot and nuke, even if your do... you probally dont want global cooldown from the offensive spells incase the tank hp takes a leap of faith towards the bottom.

for example go do epic lord of blades elite, without someone focussing on the tank .
for most content its not needed though.

i got a healbot, but only play him when a healbot is needed.

But, we are not talking about Epic Elite content here. We are talking about Heroic elite content that can be completed with smart play and no healer. We are talking about Epic Normal or Epic hard that again can be completed with smart play and no healer. There is very few Elite quests where I go "I wish I was on my divine to get us through". But, then I am one that comes prepared to do the quest with my own pots, healing amp to make them hit for a nice amount, or my own ability to use wand/scroll or cure spell.

You can build your Divine properly to be able to heal in those epic elites when needed, or raids and in the other 95% of content play the way you wish. That is not being a healbot, that is doing what is needed in a quest to get it completed.

Letting the melees or arcanes die in a quest when they have no heal amp, healers friend is smart thing to do. Otherwise you run the risk of having the whole party wipe because of 1 or 2 that failed to do their due responsibility.

[erikbozelie]

But, we are not talking about Epic Elite content here.

true for 95% of the content.

on my cleric( my main one not my healbot, this is a soloist build) completing quests on any dificulty is easy,
if i want a challange i need to bring a group

[Mubjon]

true for 95% of the content.

on my cleric( my main one not my healbot, this is a soloist build) completing quests on any dificulty is easy,
if i want a challange i need to bring a group

I always build my divines to be soloists Never know when the guild or friends are not going to be on during the time I have play.

There is something to be said about increasing the difficulty of the quest by having more in the party to help with it lol.

[Karavek]

I wee tale to help set the record straight about how I play.

One day I was running an at level elite tempest spine with a pug I joined up with. No unsurprisingly it took a while to fill as the last 2 spots initially where held for the "HEALERS" all the pure fighters and barbrs in the group said we HAD TO HAVE of it would be an automatic wipe. We also had a pure sorc who though old school in bragging about his PK ability, did prove as we got going he would one shot about everything with it faster then any melee barb could close.

I was on a for fun 1/2/7 fighter,rogue,wiz and although I had not been the main rogue, it soon became obvious I was the only viable choice for traps, so despite the slightly mocking tone I got from the WF sorc for being a fleshy drow wiz( yeah I was AM not PM cus I myself do enjoy a challenge even with an arcane) I was proving my use to the group, and being typically well armed and geared had little to fear from any foe. It made a few of the barbs annoyed I had banishers and smiters and seemed to roll 20s almost on the first swing of every elemental and golem we encountered.

My shocking handwraps of greater aberation bane made short work of rust monsters, and my beholders optic nerve and the same hand wraps let me endure the Big Eyes even as the Poor FVS the only divine caster who was willing to join us had even his seemingly bottomless mana pool strained by all the mana sponge players, everyone with at least 2 past lives to them, and all talking like they were king conan himself.

Apparently a FVS whos death ward was dispelled by the beholder is still at fault for a barbs instant death and despite being the soul divine magic support player in the group who was working his tail off trying to watch 8 suicidal barbs and fighters, and a pure rogue who had dumped int and his trap skills so much he wasnt any good for trapping elite at lvl content, people started harping on the FVS, keep in mind deaths only occurred really because the melees where getting itchy for kills as the PK sorcerer started wracking them up.

The first bit of real fun was the one beholder at the bottom of the hole. As we approached him the warriors all leap down saying we got this you casters cant do anything. DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING.

Like a doorbell being held down all 8 eager warriors died in a blink from the single beholder.

The sorc chuckled and walked to the edge say it would be one and done like all the rest. Poor guy got noticed as he edged up to the hole and ding was instakilled in a real spell version of the quick and the dead.

Suddenly the entire group was nervous. All the first wave had died far enough into the pit reaching the top of the ladder let alone getting out of harms way to accept a rez was not an option.

I stepped up as the sorcer got back and was rezzed, saying I got this guys. Its not an issue. I knew my nerve was fully charged, and my fist where eager to give the beholder a go.

I drew a thundering of greater aberation bane shortsword with festivault frost upon it, and first as I drew near the edge threw a suggestion at the beholder, and roars of WHO PARTY HATTED THE BEHOLDER! filled the team chat. Apparently non had ever seen a suggestion used before.

I walked up to the beholder, stepped behind him, hasted and rogue haste boosted, as I dismissed the suggestion and tore the beholder apart, My nerve held and had one charge left by the time I was done.

Complaints that I was a hacker, etc, that it was bugged letting a suggestion effect a beholder, and many other petty QQs came from the so called warriors who had all fallen like leaves from a tree in the months before a snow. Motivated by pure envy and their own sense of inadequacy they became ever more vicious in how they spoke down to the FVS as if he was now there to not only wipe their arses but be the focus for their rage.

We made it to the end, and the final fight went down as usual with one bit of bad luck at least from my point of veiw, you see the FVS was a new player, had said so at the beginning when he had joined after being asked to help by the groups leader, one of the mouthy barbs. He had truly been doing his best, and keeping up with vets in the maze that is TS I think we can all agree is no easy thing for a first timer cleric trying to keep up with barbs running around like headless chickens.

Well the FVS didnt have FoM. Personally no big deal to me done TS many a time lacking FoM, but this sent the so called warriors into another round of verbally abusing the FVS who by his/her voice alone couldnt of been much past 10. Some hate gaming with kids, me I dont mind, they need to learn the game same as us, and tend to once learned be the superior player with their youthful twitch reflexes and sponge like minds. However only now deep in the quest did it become yet another aspect for the group to beat down on the kid for. You could tell the kid was trying hard to not let their tears choke them down as they tried to remind the group they where a first timer, and had been asked to join the group.

Well anyways lacking FoM we went and did the big boss fight, the leader I noticed neglecting to say anyting about keeping backs to the wall etc.

Fight went pretty fast, group new the puzzle and the sorce tore the big guy apart like he was the raid boss and the giant one of our silly barbs.

However just at the end the FVS was hit with the knock off. and not being in the know didnt have FF at the ready and a quick /stuck to recall back to top.

The fall landed the kid on an island surounded by fire els and incapped. Everyone else even the sorc laughed and they all recalled.

I was utterly disgusted, and I told the kid to hang on. I was no cleric, not even a self healing arcane outside of wands and pots with my rogue splashed umd.

And of those i was out having passed them to the FVS to help show him some support when his mana had been tapped and he had to start using material healing.

I didnt have much mana left either as although I doubt my evoker force barrage had been the key to our victory I never shy away from doing my part in the big fights.

I did however have the good old bracers of aid and a charge ready to go, and without hesitation leapt with FF on gliding for the incapped FVS. as I neared I yelled to the kid to be ready to react and get out of there. As I closed in I landed a few suggestions on the fire els turning them on each other as I landed the aid on the FVS. We had to move fast and got out of there asap, and then I took the time to lead the kid back to the mountain top to get his chests. being a new player I passed him that named heavy armor I had drop for me and he was so excited it was like a kid at xmas.

Its these kind of events I have had to witness first hand that tells me its far more then simply an issue with diverging play styles, its a matter of apathy. We have no sense of community and no heart and soul left for anyone outside of our circles. Turbine is the one who brought us down this path, and is the only one who can really change the way the game works to remove this kind of poor behavior by removing any aspect of the game that creates the expectation of another player doing for yours.

In the end that group of melees clearly would of all been happier had they been able to play hack frenzy with no concern for their lives, and the FVS would of been better off never being subjected to that kind of behavior from a group that begged him to join.

Imagine for a moment being a 10 year old kid, first invited by strangers who make you feel so welcome, and like you joining them is the best thing ever, then by the end the are yelling at you, insulting you telling you to un install the game, even going so far as to tell you to go kill yourself before you have the chance to grow into a bigger waste of space. Yes all that was hurled at the poor kid FVS in that run.

Its this kind of thing I feel strongly over and feel the need to see stopped from our game at all costs. Id sooner see DDO end then have one more kid be told to kill himself by same d bag who thinks a game is that important.

[firemedium_jt]

My family plays on here. It is one reason I play a Divine. It gives a player leverage. I would not hesitate to report abusive behavior and send a written statement or witness to get someone penalized for that. I report abuse and stupid bios and names if I have to without hesitation.

There are many on this game because they lack a certain maturity, and I am not talking about the kids. It is also easily done to use your phone to video abusive chat in game. A character bar turns green when they transmit. I have never had to do this yet.

I have reported stupid behavior and turbine responds quickly and appropriately it seems most of the time. Most of the time I can mitigate it myself without having to report anything before it gets out of hand. Stupid remarks or bios are dealt with easily.

Being a Divine has its privileges especially when you drop group suddenly.

[Karavek]

My family plays on here. It is one reason I play a Divine. It gives a player leverage. I would not hesitate to report abusive behavior and send a written statement or witness to get someone penalized for that. I report abuse and stupid bios and names if I have to without hesitation.

There are many on this game because they lack a certain maturity, and I am not talking about the kids. It is also easily done to use your phone to video abusive chat in game. A character bar turns green when they transmit. I have never had to do this yet.

I have reported stupid behavior and turbine responds quickly and appropriately it seems most of the time. Most of the time I can mitigate it myself without having to report anything before it gets out of hand. Stupid remarks or bios are dealt with easily.

Being a Divine has its privileges especially when you drop group suddenly.

Sadly I have been told in game by a GM that they will not accept any outside material like video capture/and recording provided by players. Nor will they act on anything spoken in voice. saying its your choice to use sound and listen to others. Just like the ignore feature in their mind, not taking into account if you dont use ears at least then many who only use talk and enver type will black list you from their guild circles.

Pretty much you have 0 protection in game agaisnt verbal abuse if it is spoken aloud. Only texting can get them penalized since chat logs are rather simple for a gm to review.

This is sadly far from a new issue, and its long been another aspect of DDO's inability to provide a community that is more friendly then venomous.

[kilagan800]

Is it worth playing a war priest if you have to take the extra time to set disclaimers?

If you like playing a healer that can fight well, why not play a paly instead? I mean, really.

If you're not into healing others but like casting dps, I highly recommend the wizard and sorc classes, or at least now the druid class....

My point is, what makes people want to play a battle cleric? What makes it so inticing when there are clearly other alternatives that work out much better for the player and the group?

[erikbozelie]

My point is, what makes people want to play a battle cleric? What makes it so inticing when there are clearly other alternatives that work out much better for the player and the group?

because well build clerics and fvs can do allot more then any alternative classes. these ones are just labeled as a bad player for not babysitting useless fighters and barbs. not saying theyre all good, ow no.... there are tons of bad ones like the ones that do not mention that they wont babysit hp bars and want to do some other role.

but as such, look at the achievements over the years.
how many clerics and fvs have solo'd vod vs solo'd it as a pally? (just using vod as an example here)
i happened to know just one, yes a single one that acomplished that and he was a 12pally,6 monk 2 roque kind of splash, not even a pure one.

there are tons that have done that as a fvs or cleric, even if you give a couple more names, i doubt its longer then that of the fvs/cleric list, its just a matter as play..

for example a 17/3 cleric/monk can obtain over 400% healing amp. making it very tough for anything to kill him with an aura ticking for 120hp/2sec with evasion, high saves, and bonus feats to hp.
a pure fvs can gets high dots even as a melee based typed build.

as with epic destinies grand us epic abilities with virtue no limitation no matter our starting class we can add that epic melee based damage boost to a fvs or cleric with no penalty.

while i do agree that soc / wiz caster based also suffices to this list of vod completions( its just an example please) because being warforged makes them self healing. do you not want something melee based sometimes? or being able to dish out other spells like mass command and the like?

so let me ask you, why not play one? ability to solo almost any quest? why bring a party to begin with?

[Archangel666]

I wee tale to help set the record straight about how I play.

Edited simply for brevity

You've disabled the rep system but I gave you a +1 anyway because I couldn't agree more.

[kilagan800]

because well build clerics and fvs can do allot more then any alternative classes. these ones are just labeled as a bad player for not babysitting useless fighters and barbs. not saying theyre all good, ow no.... there are tons of bad ones like the ones that do not mention that they wont babysit hp bars and want to do some other role.

but as such, look at the achievements over the years.
how many clerics and fvs have solo'd vod vs solo'd it as a pally? (just using vod as an example here)
i happened to know just one, yes a single one that acomplished that and he was a 12pally,6 monk 2 roque kind of splash, not even a pure one.

there are tons that have done that as a fvs or cleric, even if you give a couple more names, i doubt its longer then that of the fvs/cleric list, its just a matter as play..

for example a 17/3 cleric/monk can obtain over 400% healing amp. making it very tough for anything to kill him with an aura ticking for 120hp/2sec with evasion, high saves, and bonus feats to hp.
a pure fvs can gets high dots even as a melee based typed build.

as with epic destinies grand us epic abilities with virtue no limitation no matter our starting class we can add that epic melee based damage boost to a fvs or cleric with no penalty.

while i do agree that soc / wiz caster based also suffices to this list of vod completions( its just an example please) because being warforged makes them self healing. do you not want something melee based sometimes? or being able to dish out other spells like mass command and the like?

so let me ask you, why not play one? ability to solo almost any quest? why bring a party to begin with?

If you want to solo and you like those particular builds, then have at it. But by choosing to play a "healer class" you're pretty much telling everyone that you're a healer, and so therefore you have no problem healing a group. At least, that's how the group sees it.

Now if someone plays a gimp melee, then that's on them and not you. Simple as that. I always play a wizard pm, but I also enjoy playing a healer, so every now and then I'll dust off my cleric for a couple of quests. And sure enough there's always one guy who gets hit just once and loses 3/4 of his red bar. Or there would be one guy who cries and complains about heals throughout the whole quest. Then there are people who don't like healers at all and make a point to grief them.

About dps. In the higher levels, or even the mid levels, clerics don't have the best dps. In a way, they're a lot like wizards. (I'm guessing the splash of monk is for evasion). So in turn, you would have to rely on that aura's high healing count while you chip away at the monsters with your mace or handwraps. I suppose using really good handwraps helps, but you would have much higher dps with a paly instead of a cleric and really wouldn't have to rely on running around the map with an aura and chipping away at those monsters.

Forgive me for saying this, but it's like robbing peter to pay paul. You're basically trading dps for around the clock heals.

[SirValentine]

But by choosing to play a "healer class" you're pretty much telling everyone that you're a healer

No, sorry, but by choosing to play a particular class, I'm pretty much just telling everyone that I want to play that class. No more.

If ignorant fools think a certain class is automatically a "healer class", they need to have their misconceptions corrected, or get used to disappointment.

Some people like to play Clerics that way, and that's fine, and others don't, and that's fine too. We're all here to have fun, and it gets unpleasant when certain types try to force their incorrect preconceptions onto others.

Said before, obviously needs to be said again: there is no healer class.

[SirValentine]

About dps. In the higher levels, or even the mid levels, clerics don't have the best dps. In a way, they're a lot like wizards.
<snip>
you would have much higher dps with a paly instead of a cleric and really wouldn't have to rely on running around the map with an aura and chipping away at those monsters.

...because all the bitter divine and arcane casters have been whining about how pallies & other melees are overpowered and need to be nerfed?

Do you play the same game as me? A pally is a lot more likely to be running around trying to chip away at monsters...a Wizard or Cleric can just insta-kill them. Even at mid-levels, how does a pally's DPS stack up against Blade Barrier (or Acid Rain, or Fireball, or ...)?

[Khatzhas]

Anytime that someone that runs a healbot believes that the cleric is the problem in a group where melees are being abusive, that is cause for concern.


Those that healbot are doing a disservice to the DDO community as a whole.

What has that got to do with what he said? He didn't say that he ran a healbot, he just said that he often got complimented on his heals. Unless you have actually met the character, why do you assume that it wasn't dropping the occasional heal as it carved through the the dungeon like a hot chainsaw through butter with the rest of the group mopping up in its wake.

The player seems to have fun playing their divine, so if anyone is being "used" it might be the rest of the group for providing a platform for him to do so.
I likewise am not sure how it is possible to regard being complimented as being "abused".

Now, if someone does play a healbot, and enjoys doing so, I really do not see what gives you the right to try to bully or browbeat them into changing their playstyle.

[phalaeo]

Don't have time to be tied to a chair.... too busy out soloing.

[Mubjon]

What has that got to do with what he said? He didn't say that he ran a healbot, he just said that he often got complimented on his heals. Unless you have actually met the character, why do you assume that it wasn't dropping the occasional heal as it carved through the the dungeon like a hot chainsaw through butter with the rest of the group mopping up in its wake.

The player seems to have fun playing their divine, so if anyone is being "used" it might be the rest of the group for providing a platform for him to do so.
I likewise am not sure how it is possible to regard being complimented as being "abused".

Now, if someone does play a healbot, and enjoys doing so, I really do not see what gives you the right to try to bully or browbeat them into changing their playstyle.

Because in the 3+ years I have been playing divines I never see compliments unless I am just healing and doing nothing else in a pug. I see a lot of complaints if I lead the kill count, or if someone does not get a cure/heal tossed their way when they are at 75% and I would be over healing them to begin with wasting my precious SP. I see complaints from the guy that decided that he was superman runs off and confront the first group while i am still buffing the party and dies.

I do not care if someone wants to be a healbot, just do not try to tell me that is the way the class should be played. As many have done over the course of that time.

And it is abusive if you are in a group where you are expected to be the extended life of another person. You might not think that slavery is abusive, but it really truly is.

The main question that someone running a divine has to ask them self is why are they grouping in the first place? From level 1 to 25 they can solo any content fairly easy.

[Mubjon]

Don't have time to be tied to a chair.... too busy out soloing.

There is a reason that people wait an hour or more for a divine to show up in pugs. And it is not because there are not that many of them online at the time.

[Karavek]

There is a reason that people wait an hour or more for a divine to show up in pugs. And it is not because there are not that many of them online at the time.

TRUTH mubi, Pure TRUTH