Do Rogues Need Hamstring for ToD?

[changelingamuck]

So, first off, I want to clarify that this isn't a thread to just complain about getting rejected from a PUG. I'm genuinely looking for advice/viewpoints, not ranting.

The other night on Argo I applied to an LFM for a Tower of Despair run on my lvl 24 pure rogue, assassin III. It was either a hard or elite run, can't remember. Anyhow, I sent the raid leader a tell saying that I was a lvl 24 rogue and I have the Boots of Anchoring, but it would be my first ToD and to let me know if s/he wanted me to apply.

The raid leader replied back right away asking if I had hamstring, as in the feat. I said, "Nope, sorry" and I quickly got a polite response along the lines of "sorry, but no thanks".

I know it's speculative, but... I'm wondering is this normal and if so, why? This raid group leader was a pure rogue, also (only one in the group at that point), if that helps. I can't be MyDDO-ed right now, because my page is "not found". I've been capped and gearing for like a year now though and haven't run ToD because of missing one ingredient for the boots. Have 550-ish hitpoints without buffs, tharnes set, destruction dragontouched armor, a few key epic items, etc. etc. I've often lead other pug raids (VoD, eChrono, Shroud), but haven't seen the inside of this one.

Is hamstring that important for ToD or rogues a particular handicap somehow? Does slowing the purple-named mobs matter crucially for some reason not mentioned on ddowiki? Or was this just random? The character is Iyvana on Argonnessen in case looking it up on YourDDO helps... ?

[Wipey]

Nice to have for weaker Horoth tank, yes. Requirement, heck no. Actually I' ve seen rogue hamstringing Horoth maybe twice in some 200 runs. Just dr breaker for hard+, curse pots, boots and some common sense if you are new to raid.

[Rogann]

Ive done 60+ tods with my rogue and never heard of such a thing as hamstring needed for the raid. If it was a hard/leet tod and it was your first time then I believe that could be one of the reasons.

However looking at your gear I can say it's worse then average. It would appear your a dex/int rogue with a bit of str? Not the best combo with your gear.(which could be a reason why you were declined)

[changelingamuck]

Nice to have for weaker Horoth tank, yes. Requirement, heck no. Actually I' ve seen rogue hamstringing Horoth maybe twice in some 200 runs. Just dr breaker for hard+, curse pots, boots and some common sense if you are new to raid.

k, thanks, good to know. I mean if people wanted to get hamstring for their playstyle/build, great, I've no objection... but I'd pass on any raid gear if I needed to have a specialized feat to get in. Seems kind of odd coming from a capped rogue though, like maybe it was a big deal five updates ago or something. I don't know

If it was a hard/leet tod and it was your first time then I believe that could be one of the reasons.

However looking at your gear I can say it's worse then average. It would appear your a dex/int rogue with a bit of str? Not the best combo with your gear.(which could be a reason why you were declined)

I suppose it could've been a no-first-timer thing, even though I was prepared enough to have the boots available, but then why even ask about hamstring?

Don't want to get into the Str-based rogue vs. finesse/Int.-based rogue thing with you since the thread is about the question of this hamstring thing, plus I don't want to light a powder keg of 'Rogann debates with Str vs. Dex/Int with all-comers' as I've read many times.

Yes, I'm still gearing and would like to improve many things. But it's not like I can't solo eHards or am whimpering in a corner on eElites...

[blerkington]

Hi,

I've seen rogues mocked in ToD runs for not having hamstring too, and I didn't like it.

Given that well-built and -geared rogues put out solid damage even against partially fortified targets, that the quest has been completed many times without rogues in party, and that groups with lots of people at cap are generally much stronger now after the release of EDs, it just seems unnecessary. I'm sure having the feat could help, but it's hardly required.

Without knowing the particulars, my suspicion is that this is just another case of someone finding an excuse to make another person feel bad. I wish there was less of it going around. If you have a well-built and -geared toon you shouldn't have trouble getting into other groups.

Thanks.

[akiraproject24]

Its definately a great debuff for horoth and if you are running tod frequently Id pick it up. I have it on my rogue but..im at a point where I dont run ToD anymore so seriously thinking of dropping it. I do not believe it is a must have though for a rogue to run tod. Its more like gravy

[scottmike0]

Hi,

I've seen rogues mocked in ToD runs for not having hamstring too, and I didn't like it.

Given that well-built and -geared rogues put out solid damage even against partially fortified targets, that the quest has been completed many times without rogues in party, and that groups with lots of people at cap are generally much stronger now after the release of EDs, it just seems unnecessary. I'm sure having the feat could help, but it's hardly required.

Without knowing the particulars, my suspicion is that this is just another case of someone finding an excuse to make another person feel bad. I wish there was less of it going around.

Thanks.

Yeah, i tend to accept anyone on first request for Tod, because it is easy to do, and less thinking involved...
Not accepting a rogue is hard to task to take on, even if they are new to the quest...
Which is why i accept rogues...
But there is a point for when too many rogues is too much..--- or is there...
Anyways, because of my perspective, i have completed 60 Tod runs out of 61 runs in total
The one run that failed was because of lack of communication or something, because i accepted i new wizard to kite and he insisted on tanking...

[changelingamuck]

Hi,
I've seen rogues mocked in ToD runs for not having hamstring too, and I didn't like it.

Well, at least I know it's not coming from nowhere. But really, who expects a particular class to have a feat that applies one particular effect for a single raid for a minor advantage?

Its definately a great debuff for horoth and if you are running tod frequently Id pick it up. I have it on my rogue but..im at a point where I dont run ToD anymore so seriously thinking of dropping it. I do not believe it is a must have though for a rogue to run tod. Its more like gravy

Did you find it useful generally or just often fun even? Like in epic (non-raid) quests? I'd think it over, but just for the one raid, I'm not inclined to take it.

Yeah, i tend to accept anyone on first request for Tod, because it is easy to do, and less thinking involved...
Not accepting a rogue is hard to task to take on, even if they are new to the quest...
Which is why i accept rogues...
But there is a point for when too many rogues is too much..--- or is there...

Can't disagree. Depending on the group make-up, there's definitely a point where I would stop taking rogues because there has to be more tank-ish/tank-esque dps to keep the aggro off them so they can sneak dps to begin with, it wouldn't be at taking no more than one rogue though.

[Uska]

My rogue is only 21 and I dont have hamstring and I have done lots of tod's and never been declined nor asked if I had that particular feat in fact I have only been asked if I had boots and could get to the tower.

[changelingamuck]

My rogue is only 21 and I dont have hamstring and I have done lots of tod's and never been declined nor asked if I had that particular feat in fact I have only been asked if I had boots and could get to the tower.

Okay, I'm chocking this one up to random extreme picky-ness then.

[Uska]

Okay, I'm chocking this one up to random extreme picky-ness then.

Thats it dont one idiot spoil your fun

[changelingamuck]

Nice to have for weaker Horoth tank, yes. Requirement, heck no. Actually I' ve seen rogue hamstringing Horoth maybe twice in some 200 runs. Just dr breaker for hard+, curse pots, boots and some common sense if you are new to raid.

Thanks for the input, btw. If it's that rare, then I definitely know I can do without it, if it's not right for my build/playstyle after a second look at the feat.

[Terebinthia]

I know one of the regular Horo tanks on Khyber used to swear by it, and I think it is a useful debuff from what he said, but a requirement? Sounds like they were looking for an excuse to me. It's not like rogues are DPS or anything *eyeroll*

[RandomKeypress]

Just another data point: my rogue on argo has been turned down from ToD runs for not having hamstring. In all cases it was because the raid leader wanted hamstring and there were no more generic DPS slots left. Runs are easier on the healer when the bosses are hamstrung, but it's far less important these days. Haven't been turned down from a ToD due to hamstringing deficiencies in many many months.

[Ragnar7]

So, first off, I want to clarify that this isn't a thread to just complain about getting rejected from a PUG. I'm genuinely looking for advice/viewpoints, not ranting.

The other night on Argo I applied to an LFM for a Tower of Despair run on my lvl 24 pure rogue, assassin III. It was either a hard or elite run, can't remember. Anyhow, I sent the raid leader a tell saying that I was a lvl 24 rogue and I have the Boots of Anchoring, but it would be my first ToD and to let me know if s/he wanted me to apply.

The raid leader replied back right away asking if I had hamstring, as in the feat. I said, "Nope, sorry" and I quickly got a polite response along the lines of "sorry, but no thanks".

I know it's speculative, but... I'm wondering is this normal and if so, why? This raid group leader was a pure rogue, also (only one in the group at that point), if that helps. I can't be MyDDO-ed right now, because my page is "not found". I've been capped and gearing for like a year now though and haven't run ToD because of missing one ingredient for the boots. Have 550-ish hitpoints without buffs, tharnes set, destruction dragontouched armor, a few key epic items, etc. etc. I've often lead other pug raids (VoD, eChrono, Shroud), but haven't seen the inside of this one.

Is hamstring that important for ToD or rogues a particular handicap somehow? Does slowing the purple-named mobs matter crucially for some reason not mentioned on ddowiki? Or was this just random? The character is Iyvana on Argonnessen in case looking it up on YourDDO helps... ?

My main character is a rogue and I would never expect another rogue to have this feat. I took it on my blitz(12ftr/6barb/2rog) life and it was a cool debuff for the devils, but it's not necessary. Rogues really don't have enough feats to take it unless you are multiclassed.

Can't disagree. Depending on the group make-up, there's definitely a point where I would stop taking rogues because there has to be more tank-ish/tank-esque dps to keep the aggro off them so they can sneak dps to begin with, it wouldn't be at taking no more than one rogue though.

I usually end up tanking suulo in ToD. Once you are geared up you wil have enough dps/threat, heal amp., and hp to do it easily. It is a common misconception that rogues can't get sneak attack if they have aggro. Use an improved deception item and it's no problem.

[akiraproject24]

Well, at least I know it's not coming from nowhere. But really, who expects a particular class to have a feat that applies one particular effect for a single raid for a minor advantage?



Did you find it useful generally or just often fun even? Like in epic (non-raid) quests? I'd think it over, but just for the one raid, I'm not inclined to take it.



Can't disagree. Depending on the group make-up, there's definitely a point where I would stop taking rogues because there has to be more tank-ish/tank-esque dps to keep the aggro off them so they can sneak dps to begin with, it wouldn't be at taking no more than one rogue though.

It works generally on everything...but not hugely useful outside pit fiends..most other times Ill use it cause I have it but it rarely matters not if a mob is hammied or not. I liked using it in tod...now that I dont run the quest anymore..I feel the feat is lackluster and could probably replace it with something more useful.

[changelingamuck]

Sounds like they were looking for an excuse to me. It's not like rogues are DPS or anything *eyeroll*

I know, but the group leader was a pure rogue which makes it seem even more bizarro... or yeah, I guess like an excuse maybe. It's not a big deal to be turned down for one pug raid, but I definitely was left off after the brief exchange over tells being like... "am I missing something..."

Just another data point: my rogue on argo has been turned down from ToD runs for not having hamstring. In all cases it was because the raid leader wanted hamstring and there were no more generic DPS slots left. Runs are easier on the healer when the bosses are hamstrung, but it's far less important these days. Haven't been turned down from a ToD due to hamstringing deficiencies in many many months.

Raid group only had 4-5 people in it at that point and only rogue was the raid leader. *shrug*. I can sort of see it being a consideration if it's down to one non-divine spot though, I suppose.

[changelingamuck]

My main character is a rogue and I would never expect another rogue to have this feat. I took it on my blitz(12ftr/6barb/2rog) life and it was a cool debuff for the devils, but it's not necessary.

Yeah, don't tell anyone {{shhh}}, but I took the sap feat which is totally situational and wouldn't regret it, but I love jumping to the back of a crowd, sapping the most distant mob and then moving to assassinate the other background crowd.

Definitely wouldn't like being forced to take a situational feat for one raid as a 'must-have' though, so I'm relieved at the responses.

[Wipey]

I know one of the regular Horo tanks on Khyber used to swear by it, and I think it is a useful debuff from what he said, but a requirement? Sounds like they were looking for an excuse to me. It's not like rogues are DPS or anything *eyeroll*

I suppose in the old days when only few tanks had enough ac. Or I suppose something like barbarian on him. In my experience, like I don't know, 50 runs on stalwart before ac changes, his predicatable melee wasn't the problem, rolling unlucky ones on spells was. If there were no monks keeping their anti stun stuff up, you could always just turtle up to lessen the damage and give hjealer some breathing room till they kill Sully.
Pugging Tods on Gland, I don't even remember anyone mentioning hamstring.
The faster Sully drops, the better :-)
PS. Why the heck would you ever want Sully's aggro on rogue, especially with so much fort bypass available.
One high threat/pally/stalwart and few rogues and Sully is dead in record time.

[karl_k0ch]

Tasty, yes. Neccessary, no. I haven't been turned down on any of my 50ish ToDs despite not having hamstring.

I wish I could fit it in on my main, but then I'd need to drop either PA, Precision or the PL feat.