TWF - wheres the point dear Devs?

[orakio]

Thats probably true in theory. But you need 10 charges for the tier 5 ability. So thats an average of 30 vorpals. The ability has a cooldown of 5 minutes. I think the cooldown is more the limiting factor here. And even if TWF would have a small advantage, like being able to charge it faster in a teleport-heavy quest (each loading screen resets the counter, which is pretty stupid itself) that is no reason to remove every major effect across the destiny universe from the offhand proc.

You can use the adrenaline charges for additional activations of adrenaline attacks, that means more +300%-400% damage activations than a THF gets, despite them being less damage individually.

That is part of the balancing feature.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Quick question, is it even possible to make a TWF Kensai fighter that does comparable dps in Shadowdancer when matched against a barb Bezerker in Fury? If the answer is not really, or not by a long shot then I think there's a problem.

Not a melee expert (all my toons are ranged/casters) but it feels like TWF is suddently a less viable form of dps at end game.

Heck in harbor the general concensus when giving advice to newbies is "if you are short on starting stat point go THF, you'll out dps a TWF at end game anyway, unless you're monk/rogue/ranger of course then you'll want TWF"

[archora]

I think that one of the biggest points is that the balance between the two fighting styles is that 2HF is slower but harder while 2WF is faster and weaker so both without any PREs or EDs are roughly the sameish. So should this not carry over to cleave for example? the way things are cleave is really nice for a big meathead lump with a 2hander while the little 2WF guy spins his one little weapon in a circle with nowhere near the range, glances or damage output. Would it be game breaking to allow the little guy his normal chance for an offhand proc during cleave? I think not.

So that is one example there are a few abilities than require cleave and there are other things that dont but still wont trigger the offhand thus sending the balance way over to 2HF as the DPS of choice right now.

Why not let any 2WF attack potentialy proc the offhand? if we assume that the balance like I mentioned before is one big swing being roughly the same as two smaller swings - should the offhand proc that is - then should that formula not be carried out in every attack? Seems fair to me, then what we would have is a playstyle choice not a case of one style being better than the other possibly forcing your hand.

[orakio]

I don't personally have a melee cleaver but question.

When a THF user cleaves do they also get a glancing blow attack?

If it doesn't then TWF shouldn't be getting the offhand hit either in my opinion at least.

[archora]

Mainhand and offhand together are roughly the same damage give or take so why should a 2wf be half the damage of a 2hander?

[Viisari]

When a THF user cleaves do they also get a glancing blow attack?

Yes. 100% of the time.

[Singular]

This part: "You gain +1 damage per level of Fury of the Wild, including this one."

I'm sorry...this part what? This part is working on twf, this part is the best part of twf...?

I'm a bit slow...

You know an appropriate epic destiny line for twf would improve the offhand chance to 100%.

[Angelus_dead]

I'm sorry...this part what? This part is working on twf, this part is the best part of twf...?
I'm a bit slow...

What's working is that any bonuses that give +X damage per hit work out to a bigger benefit for TWF than THF.

[azrael4h]

If all the destiny abilities worked double for TWF, wouldn't we then have a thread titled "THF - where's the point dear Devs?"

THF needs a few things that TWF doesn't get.

You mean besides halving half the requirements for weapons, having no stat requirements at all, and not even needing any feats to be at 90% of full power, compared to needing a sizable DEX investment (at least 5 points, assuming a +4 tome, and most likely a minimum of 7 since even +3's are only common if you buy them), twice the amount of weapons and associated costs and effort to find/craft/grind them out and a minimum of 3 feats to be able to even use TWF at all without gimping yourself, and 4 to be using the top-dps weapon. It's not really worth using until you get ITWF at least, and that's probably a wash until GTWF comes in.

I have both. My THF is not lacking at all compared to my TWF Khopesh user, and I never have managed to get a SOS to drop, forget having an ESOS. In fact, I would say that fighter has it easier, given that Cleave doesn't work worth a **** with TWF, and I can dive in and about wipe out a group of mobs hitting Cleave and Great Cleave then going to town. By the time one has gotten off timer, most of the mobs are dead from glancing blows. Give me a SoS, and they will be dead, likely with just the two spammed feats.

[oradafu]

When a THF user cleaves do they also get a glancing blow attack?

Yes. 100% of the time.

Just butting my head in here for a second. Unless something changed recently, it's not true that THF users getting 100% glancing damage when cleaving. Quarterstaves while cleaving don't get any glancing blow damage.

[Viisari]

Just butting my head in here for a second. Unless something changed recently, it's not true that THF users getting 100% glancing damage when cleaving. Quarterstaves while cleaving don't get any glancing blow damage.

Tested with a great axe and was getting glancing blow on every cleave, qstaffs work differently than other thf weapons afaik and been that way for a long time.

[karpedieme]

Just butting my head in here for a second. Unless something changed recently, it's not true that THF users getting 100% glancing damage when cleaving. Quarterstaves while cleaving don't get any glancing blow damage.

Seemingly correct q-staff dont work on glancing blows from DDO forums threads.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=385202

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=390330

Bug or WAI dont know its not been dev addressed in either yet.

Should be a bug as cleave states any THF cleave strike should grant Glancing blows..... Must be a problem with Q-staff animation being different than most martial weapons....

[Singular]

What's working is that any bonuses that give +X damage per hit work out to a bigger benefit for TWF than THF.

Cheers

Then, no worries, twf works out

[VorpalKnight]

I complained regarding TWF, and more specifically the cleaves that are extremely lackluster on TWF toons but the devs ignored the post, THF always out dps'd TWF with a few mobs, but now with bonus damages to Suprme Claves, Cleaves, Great Cleaves and Momentum Swing the gap is much much closer on single target, I would love to have a Momentum Swing option that didn't rely on cleaves for activation and had the same chance to proc offhand as your feats.


Even on single target my Barb kills things extremely fast, not as fast as my str fully hasted Rogue of course but my Rogue doesn't have the HP, 20+dr, and is dependent on SA's unlike Barb. I believe there will be an enhancement to get all str damage from offhand and maybe some more TWF bonuses, so maybe TWF will surpass THF by more when it come sot single target in the enhancement pass, but that's having to much faith that the company can do something right when it comes to balance as they seem to like to take the easy way out.


If you want the max dps while TWF then you will want to twist Sense Weakness, Tunnel Vision and if a helf fighter the +3 action boosts while on Shadowdancer for the 5d6. I will say Fury of Wild Adrenaline on my Rogue sucks, the SA damage does get multiplied but the Barb and THF fighter still does more damage with adrenaline, and while you get adrenaline back faster as TWF the activation time is a real killer for the smaller TWF paytoff and most of the time it reduces my dps while TWF since using it intelligently something means not using it at all.

[maddong]

Does the pure good/holy from unyielding affect offhand?

[Daggyr]

FWIW, I have been reading for years the detailed math and analysis that say over and over that DDO is only a TWF DPS game, "go TWF or go home", TWF is the ONLY way to go, etc.

Does this not add some balance?

The ongoing "The devs hate [melee, pally's, clerics, and on, and on...]. I don't think the devs hate anyone. I think the devs try to give us new and exciting stuff. If it doesn't happen to be the stuff YOU want for the one build you're currently playing, that doesn't mean they hate you.

The core question to me is one of diversity. There are no ED's until epic. Unless something unmentioned has changed, TWF is still king through there, as per lots of previous info.

Once you get to epic, there is no longer a single best answer on the game winning build. Lots of diversity.

Only my opinion. But I think this is a good thing.

[karpedieme]

Does the pure good/holy from unyielding affect offhand?

Yes they should.

Seemingly all "effect" to weapon type from destinies apply to both main hand and offhand.

What is mostly being discussed here is the lack of complicity of pre-required feats for some destiny abilities and how they do not work for TWF. Cleave + momentum swing + lay waste etc.......

Hope this helps.

[maddmatt70]

I would consider Shadowdancer the signature TWF destiny, if I had to pick one. They gain by far the most benefit from 6d6 sneak attack.

I really do think shadowdancer is great for dexterity or intelligence based two weapon fighting characters, and rogues, but it really is not that great for strength based two weapon fighting characters which are not rogues. I have played around with the destinies alot on my two weapon fighting characters and I just think they are fundamentally less fun for strength based two weapon fighting characters.

Somebody was talking about increasing the off hand procing or perhaps there could be attacking faster or doing some sort of signature like two weapon attacks. I think cleave/momentum swing/lay waste, etc. are great fun for two handed or sword and board characters. I am really enjoying that line or whirlwind on my sword and boards and the nice increase in doublestrike for sword and board is really fun. I can see just how fun they are for two handed fighting melee so why can you not put in some fun two weapon fighting things? Two handers got a greater power gain and they got some really fun gameplay additions so is it really too much to ask for two weapon melee to get the same treatment.

You ever play a whirling dervish prestige enhancement character in 3.5 with the dervish dance? How about the tempest dual attack with PA? There are some really fun 3.5 special two weapon fighting attacks so can we get some of those in a destiny?

[Thar]

Many "chance to proc" and "on hit" abilities are more effective when using two weapons, as are many damage bonuses.

Some examples:
Masked Ball, Reign, Echoes of the Ancestors: Legendary Dreadnought, Echoes of the Ancestors: Shadowdancer, Turn of the Tide, Stand Against the Tide, Steadfast, Bane of Undeath, Fanaticism, Purify Weapon, Anoint Weapon, Sundering Swing, Shadow Training, Dark Elusion, Oncoming Darkness, Adrenaline, Tunnel Vision, Injury, Unstoppable Fury, Gird Against Demons, Sense Weakness, Fury Eternal.

Shadow Training is the one that stands out the most as being vastly superior in the hands of a TWF character.

Since shadowdancer this isn't available to a tempest ranger to start, any plans to add something more in line with that pre?

[Veriden]

I would consider Shadowdancer the signature TWF destiny, if I had to pick one. They gain by far the most benefit from 6d6 sneak attack.

That is quite sad really. All of the other thf spheres get great abilities and your recommendation is: "Oh, 6d6 sneak attack, good enuff move on"

No, no no no no no no no no no no

You have it wrong Eladrin, waaaay wrong. A two weapon fighting sphere should be about combos and cool abilities where two handed fighting spheres get +[w] increases mostly give a twf sphere that hones in on the real time benefits of dual wielding. Such as weapon parries (dodge%(possibly raising cap with those stacking boosts to 2%/ level so a 40% dodge chance cap at ??? lvl5) boost, minor prr and ac boosts) Multiple status effects Trip and stun or trip and sunder. A multi hit combo that raises dps with animation rather than lowers it like LD's momentum swing. A five strike combo in 1 second that takes into account double strike and off hand procs with a long cool down timer (one minute or so).

I don't recommend any of those things you did earlier, no one wants a epic destiny for only one or two things. Two handed fighters are supposed to support super strength and amazing feats of cleaving through foes with single strikes wild swings, two weapon fighters are deceptive, cunning, agile, and manipulative to place their foes exactly where they want them with focus and poise.