First Life Defender

[HastyPudding]

First of all, I'm not new to the game (I have a 7th life caster, a 2nd life rogue, and a 3rd life monk), so I know that tanks in DDO are not like in other games. I'm just looking for an alt to level when things get slow on my caster or monk.

That being said, I want to make a fighter tank. I mean all-out, maximizing AC/threat, high HP, pure lvl 20, completely S&B style, bastard-sword-wielding stalwart defender. I know a little about tanks in general, and I enjoy support roles; the lack of DPS doesn't scare me, in fact, I am used to such things as I enjoy playing support classes like healbot clerics and spellsinger bards. I also have some gear such as armor and good shields I've found and saved up, as well as only needing the shard to make an epic chimera's fang.

However, I'm a little unsure of the specifics. I intend to go with a human (I don't really like half-orcs and the penalty to healing amp from WF puts me off, and dwarves is just a flavor thing) for yet another feet, some extra skill points, and the +1 to two different stats, not to mention 30% healing amp.

Questions:
1. I was thinking about 18 base CON because I intend to go for epic toughness, so I figure 1 lvl point in here and a +2 con tome I have in the bank should cover it. The rest of the lvl points will go into STR. Worth doing?

2. Combat Expertise; worth it or not? I could have a base of 11 INT and it would make 13 with a +2 tome I have and it would work out fine. Can this be used with the Stalwart Defender stance at the same time? How long does the Defender stance last?

3. Is taking 10 base DEX necessary to avoid an AC penalty? Is -1 really that big of a deal to spend 2 points on it?

4. I notice that the Stalwart Defender PrE gives a flat 25%/50%/75% bonus to threat generation just for having the enhancements. Now, when in the actual defender stance, it says it also increases your threat by the same amount. So, do these two effects stack, giving a total of 50%/100%/150% threat generation? While on the subject, is there such a thing as 'too much' threat? I mean, does it get to a point where it's overkill, or do you really need all the threat you can get?

5. THF feats still worth it while using a bastard sword/dwarven axe and shield combination? I assume you need as much damage as possible.

6. Is it necessary to add CHA at character creation for purposes of intimidate? I'm also assuming you need it for UMD, because the fighter has horrible self-healing.

[Zarquine]

2. Combat Expertise; worth it or not? I could have a base of 11 INT and it would make 13 with a +2 tome I have and it would work out fine. Can this be used with the Stalwart Defender stance at the same time? How long does the Defender stance last?

On my tank (Paladin) I have Power Attack and Combat Expertise and usually run around with PA on. CE gets switched on when I am in an "Oh c***!" situation. Is it worth it? Hard to say for me, I use it to sparsely. The Defender Stance lasts until you deactivate it or until you die. It even persists through logging out and back into the game. And it stack with CE.

3. Is taking 10 base DEX necessary to avoid an AC penalty? Is -1 really that big of a deal to spend 2 points on it?

Get a +3 DEX item and you should be good. Most Heavy Armor has a low max. Dex Bonus anyway. But your Reflex save might suffer from a low DEX.

5. THF feats still worth it while using a bastard sword/dwarven axe and shield combination? I assume you need as much damage as possible.

THF feats with S&B are nice for the glancing blows. And you may want to use a Greataxe or Greatsword from time to time.

6. Is it necessary to add CHA at character creation for purposes of intimidate? I'm also assuming you need it for UMD, because the fighter has horrible self-healing.

Getting an high UMD score on a fighter is kinda hard, but if you can pull it off it is great. High CHA for Intimidate depends on the threat you have... But sometimes it can happen that a Barb or Arcane manages to grab aggro from you. Smart people wait a moment until the tank has enough aggro before cuttig loose...

[AidanRyuko]

1. I was thinking about 18 base CON because I intend to go for epic toughness, so I figure 1 lvl point in here and a +2 con tome I have in the bank should cover it. The rest of the lvl points will go into STR. Worth doing?

proper starting con for a tank, str is always worth it but you want a tank don't ye? weigh the following off: str is direct modifier to damage added to rolls, dex modifies reflex saves and Balance, both fairly important on the defensive side. I'll believe that you got the max AC coverage on dex anyway so that's not a main reason to take dex at this point, but weigh off wether you want more damage or better reflex saves and balance (recovering from knock faster).

2. Combat Expertise; worth it or not? I could have a base of 11 INT and it would make 13 with a +2 tome I have and it would work out fine. Can this be used with the Stalwart Defender stance at the same time? How long does the Defender stance last?

As far as I know you can only use one stance at the same time, in my opinion you would be better off taking dodge because it adds a passive 3% to your dodge, does not need you to waste ability points just for 1 feat and dodge can also be used to unlock stalwart defender instead of combat expertise.

3. Is taking 10 base DEX necessary to avoid an AC penalty? Is -1 really that big of a deal to spend 2 points on it?
taking too little dex points will likely screw you over, with 8 dex you wont get all out of your armor, your reflex saves and balance skill will be below average.

4. I notice that the Stalwart Defender PrE gives a flat 25%/50%/75% bonus to threat generation just for having the enhancements. Now, when in the actual defender stance, it says it also increases your threat by the same amount. So, do these two effects stack, giving a total of 50%/100%/150% threat generation? While on the subject, is there such a thing as 'too much' threat? I mean, does it get to a point where it's overkill, or do you really need all the threat you can get?

I didn't try out a stalwart defender so I can't tell you if it stacks the way its written, but im reading it the same was as you are, as for tanking you will want all the threat you can get, nothing is less annoying then a tank in hox or vod that cant hold the boss, there are a lot of people hitting and half of em are probably specced for damage rather then defense so they will be hitting harder then you. You need this to get hate on you.

5. THF feats still worth it while using a bastard sword/dwarven axe and shield combination? I assume you need as much damage as possible.

though they do add to damage you as as an AC beast are probably better off with feats like shield mastery. In fact imp. shield mastery adds an 8% chance on double strike which means on average every 12 attacks get 1 extra with full damage, it will generate less total damage but it adds to your defense, the numbers glancing blows add are neglectable compared to your main damage on your main target in comparison.

(greater) Weapon specialization are however worth it because they add a direct +2 to damage .


6. Is it necessary to add CHA at character creation for purposes of intimidate? I'm also assuming you need it for UMD, because the fighter has horrible self-healing.
You could do that, but it will reduce your overall offense/defense. this one might be debatable, personally I'd be more interested in two str points then 4 cha points because strength will generator that little extra hate when hitting a boss whereas intimidate is a completely different skill to use and you might want to build around it to get it high up (inti gear, +6 cha item). this might be debated but I just don't think it's worth the hassle compared to raw offense/defense

[Rawrargh]

Shade posted this build http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=344642 wich looks pretty solid, it can be adapted to 32 points for a first life toon.

[HastyPudding]

Thanks for the advice, guys, I'll definitely take it into consideration.

So, what about gear? Are there any pieces of equipment or sets that would be considered an absolute must-have?

[Zarquine]

Thanks for the advice, guys, I'll definitely take it into consideration.

So, what about gear? Are there any pieces of equipment or sets that would be considered an absolute must-have?

- Healing Amp gear (Levik's Bracers [HoX], Finger Necklace [Fleshmaker?], ect). And if you go human, don't forget the enhancements. A good tank is easy to heal.

- A Greensteel item with Displacement (spell is self-only since U14). And being perma-blurred is nice, too.

- Intimidate item. Maenya's Iron Fists, for example. (Eyes of Stone, upgraded, STR +6, Intimidate +13)

- Lit II B-sword.

- A nice two-handed weapon. (sometimes you need moar DPS). At least until you can use the Epic Chimera's Fang. For low levels Carnifex (Delera's end reward).

- Cure Serious Wounds / Silver Flame potions

- Ring of Balance (Invasion tokens trade-in, probably not that great anymore)

- Best armor and shield you can get.

- +5 Protection and Resistance item.

- And Heavy Fortification of course (and maybe an Exceptional Fortification item)

- Barkskin +3 potions

- Highest CON, STR and DEX item you can get.

- Greater False Life item

- Minos Legens

- Bloodstone?

- Dusk Heart?

- Elemental Resistance 30 items / 20 potions

Oh, and re: CON or STR: The faster you kill things, the lesser damage you take . With all 3 Stalwart enhancements you can reach fairly high HPs. But in the end it is up to personal preference (I went with 18 STR and 16 CON on a Paladin and had 776 HP at lvl 20 [Not sure if that includes Legendary Dreadnaught 3]). As a human fighter you have access to the Racial and the Class Toughness Enhancements, which give a nice boost to HP.

[Faent]

That being said, I want to make a fighter tank. I mean all-out, maximizing AC/threat, high HP, pure lvl 20, completely S&B style, bastard-sword-wielding stalwart defender.

I don't really see maximizing AC as worth it anymore. You'll come by enough AC as it is. I'd consider boosting Dodge more, frankly, especially given the diminishing returns of pushing AC. You also didn't mention healing amplification. That's critical.

However, I'm a little unsure of the specifics. I intend to go with a human (I don't really like half-orcs and the penalty to healing amp from WF puts me off, and dwarves is just a flavor thing) for yet another feet, some extra skill points, and the +1 to two different stats, not to mention 30% healing amp.

I'd consider a HELF. I'm still trying to finish out my tank, but these two posts come close to capturing him. He's still a work in progress. They also contain some relevant breakdowns.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=360536
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=388008

See also:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=360603

1. I was thinking about 18 base CON because I intend to go for epic toughness, so I figure 1 lvl point in here and a +2 con tome I have in the bank should cover it. The rest of the lvl points will go into STR. Worth doing?

I'm not sold on Epic Toughness. Super insane HP is not needed on any competent tank. And starting with 18 CON is a lot of points trashed. But to each their own.

2. Combat Expertise; worth it or not? I could have a base of 11 INT and it would make 13 with a +2 tome I have and it would work out fine. Can this be used with the Stalwart Defender stance at the same time? How long does the Defender stance last?

It can be used with stance, but you can't use it with Power Attack. And turning off Power Attack is going to lower your DPS, which lowers your hate gen. Frankly, you need as much hate gen as possible. Full on DPS builds are currently cranking out MASSIVE quantities of damage, and I don't think you can keep up with that anymore with just hategen. This makes Intimidate a MUST for a full defensive tank, I think.

3. Is taking 10 base DEX necessary to avoid an AC penalty? Is -1 really that big of a deal to spend 2 points on it?

I would try to understand the Combat Pass before building your tank. AC changed a lot. See here:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=376703

Now, when in the actual defender stance, it says it also increases your threat by the same amount. So, do these two effects stack, giving a total of 50%/100%/150% threat generation? While on the subject, is there such a thing as 'too much' threat? I mean, does it get to a point where it's overkill, or do you really need all the threat you can get?

Yes, they stack. And no, there is no such thing as too much threat.

5. THF feats still worth it while using a bastard sword/dwarven axe and shield combination? I assume you need as much damage as possible.

If you're building a full-on tank, build a full-on tank. If you drop those feats, you can replace them with, say, the TWF line and pick up a lot of extra DPS when you aren't tanking. But your DPS and hate-gen will suffer while you are tanking, and I thought you were building a tank. =) At least, that's my perspective.

6. Is it necessary to add CHA at character creation for purposes of intimidate? I'm also assuming you need it for UMD, because the fighter has horrible self-healing.

No. My tank will hit 105-107 Intim even while dumping CHA. But that's in full end-game gear, counts the barbarian and fighter past lives he has, and assumes a long destiny grind. Depending on how many past lives you want to grind, how far you are willing to grind epic destinies, and what you want to tank, you have to answer that question yourself.

[HastyPudding]

If you're building a full-on tank, build a full-on tank. If you drop those feats, you can replace them with, say, the TWF line and pick up a lot of extra DPS when you aren't tanking. But your DPS and hate-gen will suffer while you are tanking, and I thought you were building a tank. =) At least, that's my perspective.

I was under the impression that bastard swords and dwarven axes still proc'ed glancing blows from the THF line, as they're considered 'hand-and-a-half' weapons. Given the increased damage from glancing blows, it would help build damage/hate while tanking, and when not tanking or while soloing I can still use a greatsword/greataxe to take advantage of it.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I was under the impression that bastard swords and dwarven axes still proc'ed glancing blows from the THF line, as they're considered 'hand-and-a-half' weapons. Given the increased damage from glancing blows, it would help build damage/hate while tanking, and when not tanking or while soloing I can still use a greatsword/greataxe to take advantage of it.

It does.

And assuming you actually play this toon, you will be tanking maybe 1% of the time, and dpsing the other 99%.

If on the other hand he sits on a shelf while other toons farm gear for him, and you only dust him off when a guildy needs a tank for a raid, well...

the lack of DPS doesn't scare me

If you dont do enough damage to hold agro, you arent a tank.

Is taking 10 base DEX necessary to avoid an AC penalty? Is -1 really that big of a deal to spend 2 points on it?

slot +6 dex somewhere and eat a +2 tome, thats plenty, since the ac bonus is capped in heavy armor.

is there such a thing as 'too much' threat? I mean, does it get to a point where it's overkill,

Well, if you are doing 20 damage a hit on your max hp build, and a barbarian walks up and hits 1400 on a crit, you would need about 7000% hate generation to hold agro.

I notice that the Stalwart Defender PrE gives a flat 25%/50%/75% bonus to threat generation just for having the enhancements. Now, when in the actual defender stance, it says it also increases your threat by the same amount. So, do these two effects stack, giving a total of 50%/100%/150% threat generation? While on the subject, is there such a thing as 'too much' threat? I mean, does it get to a point where it's overkill, or do you really need all the threat you can get?

Not quite, the 'flat bonus' is while using a shield, the stance bonus stacks with this.

6. Is it necessary to add CHA at character creation for purposes of intimidate? I'm also assuming you need it for UMD, because the fighter has horrible self-healing.

No, you need INT for those, because of the amount of skill points fighters get per level. So you may as well take combat expert. and btw you can be in combat expert stance and stalwart stance at the same time.