Building around Forester's Brush Hook

[sirgog]

Curious if anyone has tried this yet.

Kamas have a very bad name in DDO and for pretty good reason (their crit profile is terrible), but U15 brings one that crits like a khopesh (or if Earth Stance 3 or 4 is viable for your build, crits better than a khopesh), and that packs quite a punch.

The Brush Hooks' stats are:

ML 23 (an ML 24 version exists but hasn't been found yet AFAIK, but it can only be better than this)
+6
Khopesh crit profile
2.5[1d6] base damage
Aligned
Metalline
Phlebotomizing (3d8 bleed damage)


Most importantly though, unlike other weapons it lets you stay in a Monk stance. Depending on your number of monk levels, this could mean 2.5-10% doublestrike, or an improved crit profile. And did I mention it breaks every important DR (and lots of unimportant ones) except Rakshasa and Skeletons?

I've been toying with the idea of both a tankier Ftr12/Mnk6/Xxx2 (Defender, Earth stance, Ninja Spy for the 25% incorp, probably Paladin levels for extra saves), or a more DPS oriented Mnk6/Rog13/Ftr1 (a lot squishier, but with Wind stance will get a lot of value out of its sneak attacks while also providing the whole party/raid with Light monk buffs), and I'm sure there's other possibilities.

What ideas have people had along these lines?

[Habreno]

Well. Not a bad idea.

My guess for ML 24 versions:

+7 over +6

Phlebomotizing
Metalline
Aligned
Lacerating*
Hemmoraging*

* One of those two.


(For those of you who don't know: Lacerating is Slicing + Bleed)



Not a bad idea.

[unbongwah]

The problem is even with the better crit profile, handwraps are still +10% atk speed and let you use wrap-only atks like Stunning Fist & ToD. I have a hard time believing the better crits make up for that. Still...hmmm, maybe once the racial PrEs finally come out (knock on wood), dwarf monk 12 / ftr 6 / something 2? Dwarven Defender / Ninja II using Earth III for extra hate & crit dmg. [Take SD I until DD comes out.] Always the option of using wraps when they make more sense; save the kamas for DR-breaking etc.

[sirgog]

The problem is even with the better crit profile, handwraps are still +10% atk speed and let you use wrap-only atks like Stunning Fist & ToD. I have a hard time believing the better crits make up for that. Still...hmmm, maybe once the racial PrEs finally come out (knock on wood), dwarf monk 12 / ftr 6 / something 2? Dwarven Defender / Ninja II using Earth III for extra hate & crit dmg. [Take SD I until DD comes out.] Always the option of using wraps when they make more sense; save the kamas for DR-breaking etc.

I'd anticipate you'd use wraps against stunnable foes. But against non-stunnable foes, the crit profile should be far better than the 10% attack speed (although wraps do scale better with strength).

Touch of Death just isn't as impressive as it was pre-MOTU as melee damage in general has gone up up up but ToD still does the same damage it always did.

[Kinerd]

I'm not sure the crit profile is as overwhelming as it may initially appear.

Khopesh is 27 and handwraps are 21, so 29% is clearly > than "10%" speed increase.
But if we add the +1 from Earth stance, that gets us to 29 / 23 = 26%.
And if we add the +1 from OC (if it's ever fixed), that gets us to 31 / 25 = 24%.
And if we add the +1 from Devastating Critical, that gets us to 33 / 27 = 22%.
And if we add the +1 range from Pulverizer, that gets us to 33 / 28 = 18%.

It's obviously hard to say exactly how much the full offhand Strength is worth, but if it gets above 7% then multiplied with the 10% handwraps start to edge out. Plus I think you can get more than 3d8 bonus damage relatively easily with handwraps and rings, and that only compounds with the speed bonus (as does the monk doublestrike).

But on the other hand, at least you're not completely gimping yourself by using these particular kamas, so you have that going for you.

[maddmatt70]

Curious if anyone has tried this yet.

Kamas have a very bad name in DDO and for pretty good reason (their crit profile is terrible), but U15 brings one that crits like a khopesh (or if Earth Stance 3 or 4 is viable for your build, crits better than a khopesh), and that packs quite a punch.

The Brush Hooks' stats are:

ML 23 (an ML 24 version exists but hasn't been found yet AFAIK, but it can only be better than this)
+6
Khopesh crit profile
2.5[1d6] base damage
Aligned
Metalline
Phlebotomizing (3d8 bleed damage)

I have seen the level 24 version in overgrowth chest.. I do not remember what its stats were though..

[AidanRyuko]

if I'm honest I don't think they can beat the current handwraps out there, BUT they can be put to use as a secondary weapon. If you are questing with high level hp monsters you stun them with your fists and then you can use your kama's, the damage on a stunned fleshy monster should be pretty neat.

on it's own their damage isn't that special though, but they have two great additions, the first is what you already mentioned, 10% crit chance and the second is they hit through any alignment and metal. For them to be worth using, the damage would have to become upgradable first, but that's just my opinion.

I think fighter adds more benefits that fit together with a monk + crit rolls for the kama's. Rogue can work but it would be more a novelty then practical.

~aid

[Arlathen]

For a weaponised Monk, theres a couple of ways you could take it.

1. Tactics - go minimum 18 Monk and Shintao to pick up Kukan-do, and get Stunning Blow. Max Strength and get a decent Charisma, double stun your way through your enemies with your Monk Khopeshes. Now I built mine as Human, as I wanted the crazy >400% Heal Amp + FoL + Vampirism weapon combo, but also I picked up a pair of Oathblades as the crit range is excellant (not to mention the 2[D10] base damage).

In hindsight, I'd probably go Half-Elf and Rogue Dilly with a Seal of Avithoul to get access to a truck load more damage per hit on stuns. I'm Fire stance on my Human, but would go GM Wind 4 for the 10% Doublestrike and perma-haste base to work with.

2. 12 Monk / 7 Druid /1 xxx + LD - Look up Tygara's thread on this, but this looks like a very interesting combo to build on with Wind 3, Fatal Harrier and plenty of Doublestrike. For 'proper' DPS the build goes unarmed of course for the attack speed but again your Monk Khopeshes could work very nicely. This one is also Dark path so would give you shadow fade and again look at Half-Elf with Rogue dilly for 6D6 base sneak damage.

My next Monk build will be something very close to this but looking to get use out of some Radiance Shortswords (Celestia/Stars of Day) for added Sleetstorm+FoM fun.

[Arlathen]

...For them to be worth using, the damage would have to become upgradable first, but that's just my opinion...

Don't forget Dance of Flowers(+1.5[W]), Improved Power Attack (+0.5[W]) and the Combat Brute Innate (+1.0[W]) can pump these up to a total of 5.5[W] if you go LD. If your Fire stance and go GMoF you can get up to 4.75[W] instead with +3 static damage as well.

And then on top Improved Martial Arts Epic feats adds another 0.5[W] each, although you'll definitly want Overwhelming Critical and Cleaves on a weaponised build...