Best Longbow?

[kaobang]

Hello,

Everybody seems to like the Bow of Sinew, so I did some calculations (please correct if errors).
The goal is just to compare longbows, not to determine the damage per shot (no slayer arrows ...).

Assuming:
+5 arrows, pbs, ic, seeker +6, no deadly weapons, no fort, no DR, loot/crafted bows are not epic (just 1d8), force ritual, hit on a 2.



Example: dmg mod = 20

# Bow of sinew: http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bow_of_Sinew
+5 1d8 19-20 x3, elasticity, seeker +8

base = 5 + 2*4.5 +20 = 34
typ = base +force ritual = 35
crit 19-20 = 4*(base + seeker) +force ritual = 4*(34 +8) +1 = 169.0
crit 17-18 = 3*(base + seeker) +force ritual = 3*(34 +8) +1 = 127.0
average = 1/20 *[(15*typ) + (2* crit 19-20) + (2* crit 17-18)] = 1/20*1117 = 55.9

# Silver longbow:http://ddowiki.com/page/Silver_Longbow
+2 1d10 19-20 x3, holy

base = 5 + 2*5.5 +20 = 36
typ = base + holy + force ritual = 36 +7 +1 = 44
crit 17-20 = 3*(base + seeker) + holy + force ritual = 3*(36 +6) +7 +1 = 134
average = 1/20 *[(15*typ) + (4* crit 17-20)] = 1/20*1196 = 59.8

So Versus evil, with a damage mod of 20, the Silver longbow beats the Bow of sinew by ~4 average damage.




Using the same approach (and a spreadsheet), the average damage per shot are:
For Pinion assuming +4 damage from planar focus.
Assuming disrupting/smiting taking effect, so dismiss the longbows in the lists below if not valid)
I took into account the att/dmg +4 for greater bane.

Fort 0, dmg mod = 20 (some bows are vs undead/construct only)
================================================== ====
#2 GS Triple pos 82.9
#3 Unwavering Ardency 71.1
#4 alchy EWE 71
#5 eThornlord 68.7
#6 Holy Smiting 66.8
#7 holy burst of greater bane 66.4
#8 eShatterbow 66.1
#9 GS lit II 65
#10 Unwavering Ardency w/o fire 64.6
#11 eElem 63.5
#12 Silver Longbow 59.8
#13 GS lit II w/o holy 58.4
#14 Holy of Bane 57.5
#15 eSilver Flame 56.2
#16 Bow of Sinew 55.9
#17 Silver Longbow w/o holy 53.2


Fort 0, dmg mod = 40 (some bows are vs undead/construct only)
================================================== ====
#1 Pinion 115.5
#2 GS Triple pos 105.9
#3 Unwavering Ardency 98.1
#4 eThornlord 95.7
#5 alchy EWE 94
#6 Unwavering Ardency w/o fire 91.6
#7 Holy Smiting 89.8
#8 holy burst of greater bane 89.4
#9 eShatterbow 89.1
#10 GS lit II 88
#11 Silver Longbow 86.8
#12 eElem 86.5
#13 Bow of Sinew 84.9
#14 GS lit II w/o holy 81.4
#15 Holy of Bane 80.5
#16 Silver Longbow w/o holy 80.2
#17 eSilver Flame 79.2


Fort 0, dmg mod = 60 (some bows are vs undead/construct only)
================================================== ====
#1 Pinion 142.5
#2 GS Triple pos 128.9
#3 Unwavering Ardency 125.1
#4 eThornlord 122.7
#5 Unwavering Ardency w/o fire 118.6
#6 alchy EWE 117
#7 Bow of Sinew 113.9
#8 Silver Longbow 113.8
#9 Holy Smiting 112.8
#10 holy burst of greater bane 112.4
#11 eShatterbow 112.1
#12 GS lit II 111
#13 eElem 109.5
#14 Silver Longbow w/o holy 107.2
#15 GS lit II w/o holy 104.4
#16 Holy of Bane 103.5
#17 eSilver Flame 102.2


Fort 75, dmg mod = 20 (precision = 100 - 25 = 75 on undead/construct)
================================================== ====
#1 GS Triple pos 76.1
#2 Pinion 67.4
#3 alchy EWE 63.6
#4 Holy Smiting 60.4
#5 holy burst of greater bane 59.3
#6 GS lit II 58.2
#7 eShatterbow 58.2
#8 eElem 56.2
#9 Unwavering Ardency 55.1
#10 eThornlord 51.7
#11 GS lit II w/o holy 51.6
#12 eSilver Flame 50.9 (with fort 75-20 weaken undead = 55)
#13 Holy of Bane 50.7
#14 Unwavering Ardency w/o fire 48.6
#15 Silver Longbow 46.3
#16 Silver Longbow w/o holy 39.7
#17 Bow of Sinew 38.9


Fort 75, dmg mod = 40 (precision = 100 - 25 = 75 on undead/construct)
================================================== ====
#1 GS Triple pos 96.1
#2 Pinion 88.4
#3 alchy EWE 83.6
#4 Holy Smiting 80.4
#5 holy burst of greater bane 79.3
#6 GS lit II 78.2
#7 eShatterbow 78.2
#8 eElem 76.2
#9 Unwavering Ardency 76.1
#10 eThornlord 72.7
#11 eSilver Flame 71.7 (with fort 75-20 weaken undead = 55)
#12 GS lit II w/o holy 71.6
#13 Holy of Bane 70.7
#14 Unwavering Ardency w/o fire 69.6
#15 Silver Longbow 67.3
#16 Silver Longbow w/o holy 60.7
#17 Bow of Sinew 60.4


Fort 75, dmg mod = 60 (precision = 100 - 25 = 75 on undead/construct)
================================================== ====
#1 GS Triple pos 116.1
#2 Pinion 109.4
#3 alchy EWE 103.6
#4 Holy Smiting 100.4
#5 holy burst of greater bane 99.3
#6 GS lit II 98.2
#7 eShatterbow 98.2
#8 Unwavering Ardency 97.1
#9 eElem 96.2
#10 eThornlord 93.7
#11 eSilver Flame 92.5 (with fort 75-20 weaken undead = 55)
#12 GS lit II w/o holy 91.6
#13 Holy of Bane 90.7
#14 Unwavering Ardency w/o fire 90.6
#15 Silver Longbow 88.3
#16 Bow of Sinew 81.9
#17 Silver Longbow w/o holy 81.7


Note: I guess most of us have around 40 damage mod

Please tell me if it seems correct, thx.

[Glenalth]

Also worth noting that Greater Bane doesn't apply the +4 att/dam to bows for whatever reason according to testing in another thread.

Unless something has changed recently, this was working for loot gen and semi-broken on some named items like Epic Shatterbow last time I checked.

[Glenalth]

Don't really want to get into an argument here, but it's just that your original comment made it sound like you're saying that it's only a +1 bow :


So I just find it odd that you would not make it +5 given your comment (not to mention 1[W] vs 2[W] from recrafting post-expansion). That's all. Anyways, this is my last post on this thread just to avoid possible unintended conflicts.

It is only +1.

Still have 3-4 TRs to go.

[scoobmx]

easy. there are only 2.
vs DR: Epic Thornlord with slotted Heaven's Light crystal
no DR: Pinion
done.

[kaobang]

Pinion + stay good + house D arrows can break dr (from ddo wiki).

Now I'm unsure if it's a loss of dps compared to prism stance and eThornlord.

[blerkington]

Hi,

For the people who don't like maths, this may help.

The crazier looking the bow is, generally the more damage you'll be doing using it.

I'm thinking of you, Unwavering Ardency, eThornlord and Pinion.

I hope that this helps, and also that this trend in crazy appearances for endgame bows doesn't continue.

Thanks.

[barecm]

Hi,

For the people who don't like maths, this may help.

The crazier looking the bow is, generally the more damage you'll be doing using it.

I'm thinking of you, Unwavering Ardency, eThornlord and Pinion.

I hope that this helps, and also that this trend in crazy appearances for endgame bows doesn't continue.

Thanks.

eThornlord looks like regular Thornlord; which looks like a lvl 1 bow. But yes on the others.

[Brennie]

Awesome Info Kaobong, +1. I've been curious lately how unwavering Ardency and LitII stack up against each other.

I'm curious what triple pos looks like WITHOUT factoring in Greater Disruption for 0 fort enemies (Since, y'know... zero fort undead aren't terribly common). I'm also curious why Epic longbows of Earth is behind litII. I did some rough calculations way back when, which put it ahead... however that is when it had 2d6 base damage, which doubled with PBS to give it an edge. Are you factoring in Point Blank range for all these calculations, or did the [w] change really knock epic bows down a notch or three?

Upon recalculating just now, these bows seems roughly equal. Just taking into account the weapon effects of both bows and assuming shocking burst/acid burst and lit strike/disintegration cancel each other out, Epic Earth seems like it is behind by only 2.8 damage per hit. +5 Holy (7) and shocking blast (1.8) vs. +6 and acid arrow (5), so 13.8 - 11 = 2.8 difference. However, this is not factoring in base damage form bows, as I can't find reference to greensteel or epic longbow of earth's new values. Assuming greensteel is 1.5[1d8] and epic longbow of earth is 2[1d8], then we get ~8.05 vs. 10.8 base damage (including crits w/ improved crit, but not PBS, as PBS should affect both equally).

In total litII = 21.85 and Epic Earth = 21.8, factoring in only base damage and non-equivalent damage effects

My math is very ... imprecise, but it seems like these two bows should be roughly equal, shouldn't they?

[kaobang]

thank you

I found two errors in my calculations:
- I added the vorpal effect of blast (4d6) for all crit (benefit to GS lit II)
- I took eElem of earth at +5 instead of +6



Assuming:
+5 arrows, pbs, ic, seeker +6, no deadly weapons, no fort, no DR, loot/crafted bows are not epic (just 1d8), force ritual, hit on a 2.

dmg mod = 20:


Lit II: +5 1.5[1d8] 20x3, holy, shocking burst, shocking blast, lightning strike (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4160323)

base = 5 + (1.5+1pbs)*4.5 +20 = 36.25
typ = base + holy + shocking burst + lightning strike + force ritual = 36.25 + 7 + 3.5 + 8.13 + 1 = 55.88
crit20 = 3*( base + seeker) + holy + shocking burst + shocking blast + lightning strike + force ritual
crit20 = 3*(36.25 + 6) + 7 + (3.5 + 2*5.5)burst + (2*5.5 + 4*3.5)blast + 8.13 + 1 = 126.75 + 7 + 14.5 + 25 + 8.13 + 1 = 182.38
crit19 = crit20 - vorpal blast effect = 182.38 - 4*3.5 = 168.38
avg = 1/20 * [(17*typ) + crit20 + crit19] = 1/20*1300.72 = 65.0 (it was 66.4 with the error)

eElem of earth: +6 2[1d8] 20x3, acid burst, greater acid arrow, disintegration (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=176176)

For the greater acid arrow I took 1.43 avg per shot.
it is 2d4 (avg 5) dmg every 2s, but the value here is added for every shot.
Assuming 70 shot/min and in 1 min there is 10s of MS, N shot/min = (50-70 +4*10*70)/60 = 105 shots/min
acid dmg / min = 5*60/2 = 150, the the avg acid dmg per arrow is: 150/105 = 1.43

base = 6 + (2+1pbs)*4.5 +20 = 39.5
typ = base + acid burst + greater acid arrow + disintegration + force ritual = 39.5 + 3.5 + 1.43 + 10 + 1 = 55.4
crit = 3*( base + seeker) + acid burst + greater acid arrow + disintegration + force ritual
crit = 3*(39.5 + 6) + (3.5 + 2*5.5)burst + 1.43 + 10 +1 = 163.4

avg = 1/20 * [(17*typ) + 2*crit] = 1/20*1268.6 = 63.4 (it was 62.3 with the +5 instead of the +6)


For any dmg mod, Lit II is a couple avg dmg ahead of the eElem T3.

I corrected my first post to reflect the changes.

[MindCake]

Unless something has changed recently, this was working for loot gen and semi-broken on some named items like Epic Shatterbow last time I checked.

Some two months ago it appeared not to be working on random lootgen.

[wax_on_wax_off]

thank you

I found two errors in my calculations:
- I added the vorpal effect of blast (4d6) for all crit (benefit to GS lit II)
- I took eElem of earth at +5 instead of +6



Assuming:
+5 arrows, pbs, ic, seeker +6, no deadly weapons, no fort, no DR, loot/crafted bows are not epic (just 1d8), force ritual, hit on a 2.

dmg mod = 20:


Lit II: +5 1.5[1d8] 20x3, holy, shocking burst, shocking blast, lightning strike (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4160323)

base = 5 + (1.5+1pbs)*4.5 +20 = 36.25
typ = base + holy + shocking burst + lightning strike + force ritual = 36.25 + 7 + 3.5 + 8.13 + 1 = 55.88
crit20 = 3*( base + seeker) + holy + shocking burst + shocking blast + lightning strike + force ritual
crit20 = 3*(36.25 + 6) + 7 + (3.5 + 2*5.5)burst + (2*5.5 + 4*3.5)blast + 8.13 + 1 = 126.75 + 7 + 14.5 + 25 + 8.13 + 1 = 182.38
crit19 = crit20 - vorpal blast effect = 182.38 - 4*3.5 = 168.38
avg = 1/20 * [(17*typ) + crit20 + crit19] = 1/20*1300.72 = 65.0 (it was 66.4 with the error)

eElem of earth: +6 2[1d8] 20x3, acid burst, greater acid arrow, disintegration (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=176176)

For the greater acid arrow I took 1.43 avg per shot.
it is 2d4 (avg 5) dmg every 2s, but the value here is added for every shot.
Assuming 70 shot/min and in 1 min there is 10s of MS, N shot/min = (50-70 +4*10*70)/60 = 105 shots/min
acid dmg / min = 5*60/2 = 150, the the avg acid dmg per arrow is: 150/105 = 1.43

base = 6 + (2+1pbs)*4.5 +20 = 39.5
typ = base + acid burst + greater acid arrow + disintegration + force ritual = 39.5 + 3.5 + 1.43 + 10 + 1 = 55.4
crit = 3*( base + seeker) + acid burst + greater acid arrow + disintegration + force ritual
crit = 3*(39.5 + 6) + (3.5 + 2*5.5)burst + 1.43 + 10 +1 = 163.4

avg = 1/20 * [(17*typ) + 2*crit] = 1/20*1268.6 = 63.4 (it was 62.3 with the +5 instead of the +6)


For any dmg mod, Lit II is a couple avg dmg ahead of the eElem T3.

I corrected my first post to reflect the changes.

Greater Acid Arrow usually applies its first tick every time you attack giving a solid 5/hit damage and the dot if you stop attacking. However, sometimes it stops applying and I never figured out why.

Can you do the calculation for an alchemical earth/water/earth +7 bow?

[blerkington]

eThornlord looks like regular Thornlord; which looks like a lvl 1 bow. But yes on the others.

Hi,

Does it? I thought it looked unusual, but now I can't find a picture.

So I must have been confused. Again.

Thanks.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Greater Acid Arrow usually applies its first tick every time you attack giving a solid 5/hit damage and the dot if you stop attacking. However, sometimes it stops applying and I never figured out why.

Can you do the calculation for an alchemical earth/water/earth +7 bow?

Also, you can use cheap cannith crafted +1 holy arrows on the earth bow which isn't an option on the litII.

[Brennie]

(math...)
For any dmg mod, Lit II is a couple avg dmg ahead of the eElem T3.

I corrected my first post to reflect the changes.

Greater Acid Arrow usually applies its first tick every time you attack giving a solid 5/hit damage and the dot if you stop attacking. However, sometimes it stops applying and I never figured out why.

Can you do the calculation for an alchemical earth/water/earth +7 bow?

I think this is where the discrepancy is coming from. Greater acid arrow applies its first "Tic" every time you do damage, pretty much making it 5 more damage on average per hit. Its subsequent tics aren't even worth mentioning, since the are only 2.5 damage per second, and only if you have stopped attacking your enemy. Which is pretty pathetic.

I haven't experienced it "not working anymore", as Waxer (Can i call you that?) has, but i honestly haven't used it all that much (My archer has been on a pretty quick TR train everytime he hit 20). I think if you recalculated with correct values for acid arrow, you would find that eEarth is only mildly behind. Due to its other goodies, and (imho) less streaky burst/blast and better proc, I think I prefer it for 20+. However, it'll be hard to talk myself into using it when unwavering ardency seems to blow it out of the water...



Also: Can we talk about the u16 preview bow? This is, i believe, the Epic Normal version. Epic Elite version should be something along the lines of 2.5 [2d8] base, 20/x3 with +7 enhancement 3d6 law damage + aligned + Superior Heartseeker (My calcs have this doing 9 extra damage per hit). However, it woudl be foolish to even try to calculate the EE version until we see definitive proof of what it is.

Warning: Quickmath just for comparison purposes (I'm not factoring in misses, PBS or base damage. I will be comparing against eEarth t2 as it would have equal benefits from seeker, bonus damage, PBS and the like. I am assuming Improved Crit, however);

EpicNormal Roadwatch Bow: 11.25 base + 2.25 extra base damage on crits + 7 law + 7.65 damage from greater Heartseeker = 28.15 average

Epic Longbow of Earth: 9 base + 1.8 extra base on crits + 3.5 Acid + 1.1 burst + 5 acid arrow + 9.15 Disintegration = 29.55 average

So Epic longbows of Earth is decently ahead, without even factoring in Stone Prison or Improved Destruction. Roadwatch bow would, obviously, pull ahead against any kind of alignment DR, assuming the archer doesn't have alternate DR breaking abilities (Alignment damage arrows, t3 Stay Good stance, or whatehaveyou). In theory the Epic Elite version of the bow would outstrip eEarth bow by about 4 points per hit. HOWEVER, i think that bow woudl still be miles behind some of the better bows on Kaobang's list (Pinion/Ardency), but i don't have the skills to calculate differing crit ranges or attack speeds, nor do we know exactly what the EE bow looks like. Overall, though, i have to say i am very much *not* impressed.

[kaobang]

Wowo, I had to do some research on the alchy bows since I own none.

So (assuming 15.2 changes) the +7 alchy EWE is:
+7, 2 [1d8], 20 x3, acid burst, crushing wave, corrosive salt, acid torrent

Acid torrent is 15d6 on vorpal with a DC ... for my calculations I assumed that the dices are not loaded and that it's resisted (half damage) half the time:
so on vorpal: 15*3.5 * (1 + 0.5)/2 = 39.375 dmg by vorpal crit
Ideally you can confirm this behavior vs typical EH mobs.

Results are in the updated list.

Brennie, the new bow looks like a high level lazy DR breaker, waiting to get the final stats.

[WruntJunior]

Wowo, I had to do some research on the alchy bows since I own none.

So (assuming 15.2 changes) the +7 alchy EWE is:
+7, 2 [1d8], 20 x3, acid burst, crushing wave, corrosive salt, acid torrent

Acid torrent is 15d6 on vorpal with a DC ... for my calculations I assumed that the dices are not loaded and that it's resisted (half damage) half the time:
so on vorpal: 15*3.5 * (1 + 0.5)/2 = 39.375 dmg by vorpal crit
Ideally you can confirm this behavior vs typical EH mobs.

Results are in the updated list.

Brennie, the new bow looks like a high level lazy DR breaker, waiting to get the final stats.

My main question for considering second tier water...does crushing wave still screw with the arcane cold DoT (can't remember the name)?

Edit: The new bow looks like a good contender until the shard of the thornlord decides to start existing for me, as a replacement for now for my bow of sinew as a general DR breaker (assuming the EE version is good).