2 Month report on new combat system

[Hafeal]

I would agree with you if the new system made elite streaking much tougher for casters also, but it doesn't, only melee. Melee were already dead weight in a lot of elite zergs before U14, even more so now.

I would agree to the extent casters were not as affected by AC because they have been perfecting 'evasion' tactics since the game's inception.

Look, casters have been powerful for a long time (thank you unlimited mana and solo scaling). But when the shield wall goes down in a group, on elite, they get hit hard too. I haven't seen a spike in runs with casters soloing elite content while everyone pikes since the AC changes. The percentage of players who have a caster who can ACTUALLY solo elite in a full group (i.e., no scaling) is very small. There are many who talk the talk but most do it without being able to walk the walk.

[voxson5]

Hmm our new combat system...

Well, I can leave PA on all the time now and not worry, I can more or less ignore my ac, builds that can incorporate dodge, incorporeal and concealment are very well protected.

IMHO was ambitious but rubbish change.

Should have left AC and to-hit alone, dodge and PRR are good changes.

Makes sense that an agile monk Is hard to hit, but gets hammered when you do connect.
Likewise, a slow moving; armoured person is pretty easy to hit, but the armour absorbs some of the impact.

[elg582]

The long and the short of it is that it makes the game boring; not fun.

More and more I find myself on the Neverwinter website to see when it comes out...

[SpiritofNight]

I see it as a first draft, which (i hope) they are running through the game to see what bits of it are good, and which are bad.

From what I saw of the original concept stenciling out, the reasoning behind it was that with the d20 to hit system, a didfference of 20 AC was the difference between being hit 95% of the time, and 5% of the time, which is, frankly, ludicrous in a game such as this.
Yes, it is DnD, but it doesnt suit an online, fluid combat game so much.

The idea behind the new combat system was that if you had half the ac, you got hit twice as much, which is sound, until you apply it the other way (doubling ac, to halve hits) because you can't just double your ac that easily.
At high end, its nearly impossible to get an AC worthwhile for any kind of mitigation.


Suggestion:
Have monsters have a baseline AC for which they have 50% to hit at, then for each 20 (or any other flat number) AC points either side of it, you get 50% less likely to be hit, or be missed
So for example, if a mob has a target To Hit of 50:
- AC 50 gets hit 50% the time
- AC 70 gets hit 25% the time
- AC 90 - 12.5%
- AC 110 - 6.25%

- AC 30 will be hit 75% the time
- AC 10 will be hit 87.5%

It means AC always means something, but not in a linear sense (as it used to be) or exponential (as it is now)

[elg582]

From what I saw of the original concept stenciling out, the reasoning behind it was that with the d20 to hit system, a didfference of 20 AC was the difference between being hit 95% of the time, and 5% of the time, which is, frankly, ludicrous in a game such as this.
Yes, it is DnD, but it doesnt suit an online, fluid combat game so much.

The system started to break down in high level PnP; there are fixes for this. Turbine chose to ignore all existing and proposed solutions in favor of this ill-advised foray into mathematical gaming by people who do not even appear to play the game.

I'm not saying that it should have been left alone, but there were far less drastic changes that would not have turned the game into a baby WoW clone.

[Chaios]

The d20 attack system can scale just as well as any other system, if designers are mindful of how attack and defense will balance across a range of levels. But d20 is very unforgiving in that respect, and if the range of attack scores versus AC scores across the level range isn't strictly planned for and controlled, the attack portion of combat quickly becomes unbalanced. Replacing the old system wasn't the only possible solution, it was only the solution that required the least amount of going back and changing how existing gear and feats work in order to adjust what degree of attack and armor class would be attainable by characters and mobs throughout the level range. I've managed to adapt my rogues to the new system very well. In fact, some of them have come out ahead. But I'd still rather have a well planned, balanced and working d20 combat system. This is supposed to be D&D.

[Chai]

The d20 attack system can scale just as well as any other system, if designers are mindful of how attack and defense will balance across a range of levels. But d20 is very unforgiving in that respect, and if the range of attack scores versus AC scores across the level range isn't strictly planned for and controlled, the attack portion of combat quickly becomes unbalanced. Replacing the old system wasn't the only possible solution, it was only the solution that required the least amount of going back and changing how existing gear and feats work in order to adjust what degree of attack and armor class would be attainable by characters and mobs throughout the level range. I've managed to adapt my rogues to the new system very well. In fact, some of them have come out ahead. But I'd still rather have a well planned, balanced and working d20 combat system. This is supposed to be D&D.

Yes and no.

The D20 system decreases in percentage of possibilities as the to-hit values and AC values increase.

If top mob to hit is 40, the D20 covers half of that range so a mob can roll a 41-60. The range of AC that does anything other than always hit or unhittable is then ~1/3 of the available AC values (up to the top value). Having a 40 AC is the same as having 10 AC in terms of effectiveness. Having 60 AC is the same as having 90 AC in terms of effectiveness.

If top mob to hit is 80, the D20 socers 1/4 of the range, and now AC values that result in anything other than unhittable or always hit are ~1/5 of all available values (up to the top value). Now having a 80 AC is as effective as having 10, or 0 for that matter.

The new combat system scales in a parabolic fashion. In the middle of the parabola its easier to gain effectiveness than it is at either edge. Every point of AC is worth SOMETHING however. Nowdays a kensai putting on a shield makes a DPS sacrifice. They gain AC that is actually worth something - whether or not its worth the DPS sacrifice varies. When DDO was using the d20 system, a kensai made the same DPS sacrifice when equipping a shield, but got no worthwhile AC out of the deal. The only reason to use a shield back then was to block for DR reasons, and that only occurred in a handful of very specific circumstances.

Part of the reason the old system failed was fear of people being able to create an AC toon that was unhittable in epics. If they made it scale correctly, top end AC would need to have bare minumim 50% miss chance due to AC IMO. The higher the mob to-hit values get, the higher each slot need to scale in how it provides more AC - this was also an issue. For the longest time, +5 plate could be had at level 8. Mob to-hit bonus certainly didnt stop increasing at level 8 however. Players had to dedicate MORE SLOTS to gain AC at a SLOWER RATE than the to-hit bonuses scaled. Even in a situation where the D20 system does "work" - the large amount of AC that is ineffective still encourages players to not even bother with AC. If you cant get at least 82 AC when mobs to-hits are 80, dont bother even getting 14 AC on purpose - it has the same effectiveness - none.

This does not happen in a parabolic system. The issues are different. If someone already farmed out most of the gear they need, the diminishing returns near the edges (in this case the high end) will ensure that any more gear farmed wont have as much impact. Its a system that rewards mediocrity and has diminishing returns at the high and low ends of the AC scale. Since unhittable AC is not really attainable in most cases, it becomes more advantageous to layer the toon in stacking protections. High AC, ghostly, blur, dodge bonus, displacement (not stacking but the blur covers to a lesser degree when displace isnt up).

[pelaaja]

In my opinion, this is a step backwards.

The reason why they changed the AC system was that the AC either needed to be maxed or you could just dump it in the mid-high lvls, and that AC was useless on epics.

However, IMO, due to changed into Epic quests, addition of PRR and dodge, the AC system should've not been changed at all. Okay, maybe a bit modify the high lvls' mob's attack bonus so that like 50-60 AC would make you get missed for about half the time on epic normal, but that's just tweaking which could've been done very easily.

IMO, the PRR is fine as it should be. However, I think the DEX bonus of the armor should contribute to it somewhat, too. Like adding your DEX modifier to PRR, which is capped by the armor DEX bonus. I still lean towards that it's fine to have BAB to affect it, too.

But PRR shouldn't be about like % of damage reduction. Those things should be rather for other things like SD, DoS and Earth stance. It should be rather like a DR/- depending on the PRR, like 1/5 of the amount of PRR is the amount you get DR/-. Tanks with 100 PRR would have DR 20/-, which should be worth the feat/prestige investment. But that's just me.

TL;TR: Bring the old AC system back now that PRR and Dodge are added to this new Epic difficulty with some tweaks in it!

[wax_on_wax_off]

What a great turbine bashing thread, good job guys!

Until I TR'd a caster to Druid (level 6 now running elites ofc) all my characters were in outfits and I've done 2 lives on my archer running elites in outfits with the new combat system.

Honestly, 95% miss chance from moderate to heavy AC investment in the old system was OP and it trivialised content from Korthos to elite Vision of Destruction. I loved my unarmed strength based rogue who could hit a hypothetical 100 AC and I milked that for all it was worth doing almost every quest in the game on elite for BB (almost 4000 favour now iirc).

Now it's different, it's taken some adjustment sure but honestly I don't find the quests any more difficult. Without actually investing in AC a decently built monk can get a decent miss chance in most heroic elites and if combined with dodge, blur and incorporeality it's quite plausible to approach 95% miss chance from mobs. For my part I often found myself thinking that I was doing quests faster due to not investing in AC left more room for DPS gear so mobs died faster.

Constructinve, realistic feedback is great. Sorry but they aren't going to scrap the system, it just isn't going to happen. Everything else just seems to be complain complain complain. If elite is too difficult then do hard, elite is supposed to be difficult, that's the point! I'm well resigned to dropping to hard streak at some point though some quests on elite are very entertaining for sure.

[jejeba86]

I think a nice change for getting monk splashes back to action would be that each plus in wisdom would grant a higher-than-1 bonus to AC. Two, three, any number that would make a difference comparing to the absence of armor in total AC.

Also, the ocean stance could make the dodge cap roof higher. So it would give people reason to invest in it.

Maybe make the defensive stances give double bonus from items scores, like sorcerers have double spell points.

[Dandonk]

What a great turbine bashing thread, good job guys!

Thank you.

Until I TR'd a caster to Druid (level 6 now running elites ofc) all my characters were in outfits and I've done 2 lives on my archer running elites in outfits with the new combat system.

Honestly, 95% miss chance from moderate to heavy AC investment in the old system was OP and it trivialised content from Korthos to elite Vision of Destruction. I loved my unarmed strength based rogue who could hit a hypothetical 100 AC and I milked that for all it was worth doing almost every quest in the game on elite for BB (almost 4000 favour now iirc).

Not very many ever reached that threshold at endgame. But yes, it did trivialize some content for some players.

The issue for me is not that a change was made. It's that a self-admitted "improvised" change was made, without regard to consequences or feedback.

Now it's different, it's taken some adjustment sure but honestly I don't find the quests any more difficult. Without actually investing in AC a decently built monk can get a decent miss chance in most heroic elites and if combined with dodge, blur and incorporeality it's quite plausible to approach 95% miss chance from mobs. For my part I often found myself thinking that I was doing quests faster due to not investing in AC left more room for DPS gear so mobs died faster.

Without actually investing in AC, as you say, you now get free miss chance. Yay? Without sacrificing anything at all you get decent defense... that's not good game balance to me. There should always be tradeoffs.

Constructive, realistic feedback is great. Sorry but they aren't going to scrap the system, it just isn't going to happen. Everything else just seems to be complain complain complain. If elite is too difficult then do hard, elite is supposed to be difficult, that's the point! I'm well resigned to dropping to hard streak at some point though some quests on elite are very entertaining for sure.

We tried the constructive feedback. They didn't take it. So this is where we are now.

The new system rewards mediocrity. Why grind for that one more to hit or one more AC? It doesn't matter, makes no perceptible difference at all.
It devalues build choices, as to hit and AC from stats and feats is pointless. Take a weapon you're proficient in, get a minimum of gear and you're set. The guy who builds for better to hit or AC, and grinds for it for ages, gets so little effect out of it that he is (rightfully) laughed at.

The change to combat is a HUGE change. It should have been discussed at length, tried out at length and left open for other kinds of changes.
Instead, we got it shoved down our throats with extremely little feedback (if any).

[atlantiandreams]

just one little small question. How the holy heck are you getting 100 strength? just wondering

just to clarify i play a lot of humans and i think 65-70 is the max i have been able to reach

[donblas]

I try to get my AC/PRR/Dodge etc as high as possible but once I'm in game i expect to be hit - a lot - no matter what i do. There again I can hit almost anything with almost anything. If you had poor defenses before the change you gained from the changes; if you had good defenses before the changes you lost out. Mid-level toons with good defenses can now be hit as much as 8 times as much as they were previously by at-level mobs.

Poorly built or non-melee toons used to miss high AC mobs, now they don't.

I made a lot of objections when they rushed out this improvised system in the first place but have just got on with it since it was forced on us. There are so many things wrong it would take to long to mention them, but there was extensive discussion in beta and pretty much no feedback at all from the devs who seemed to be hiding in embarassment at the mess that was the new system. But even though it's not fun, but not playing DDO would be even less fun.

It was a pretty silly idea to decide to make a new combat system that would be used from now on in the game and then not allocate enough time to make a GOOD new combat system. The cause was that the expansion was basically lvl16+ and it was at high level that AC in the old system completely broke down. This had to be fixed by the time of release, whether or not the "fix" was any good. The chosen "fix" was to allow high level toons to have some use from defenses, while messing up builds at levels 1-15.

I suspect that despite the fact that the new system is very bad, no-one is working on fixing it in any major way.

[goodoldxelos]

I have no problems surviving and damaging/killing with cleave and great cleave on elites (just don't zerg quite as fast as before on some quests). I don't mind the system, sure it could use some tweaks.

[sirgog]

It's not perfect but by god it is a lot less busted than the old system of '1-19 twinked out vets take 1/19th of the damage of the newbie, 20 noone is ever missed'.

No more 'oh hell, ship buffs wore off mid combat, now I'm taking 3-4 times as much damage' (and yes that has happened to me when tanking elite TOD). No more 'I have an awesome LOB tank, all we need is an arti, a bard, a ranger, someone to double-curse and a FVS and he'll graze me on a 19'.

If they fix the issue where mob to-hit scales far more with difficulty setting than player AC scales with gear, we'd be golden.

[pHo3nix]

On elite, well, it is elite, right? I have found that tactics v. zerg now are much more important.

With the exception of some quests (running with the devils on elite for example, in my last bard life i've actually had to pull mobs to get it done while before it was zerg zerg zerg) you can still zerg without much concern. Spellcasters on elite hit for a little more than before, but nothing that bad unless you are unlucky on saves for disintegration

[Ape_Man]

It's not perfect but by god it is a lot less busted than the old system of '1-19 twinked out vets take 1/19th of the damage of the newbie, 20 noone is ever missed'.

No more 'oh hell, ship buffs wore off mid combat, now I'm taking 3-4 times as much damage' (and yes that has happened to me when tanking elite TOD). No more 'I have an awesome LOB tank, all we need is an arti, a bard, a ranger, someone to double-curse and a FVS and he'll graze me on a 19'.

Ah, you mean they dumbed it down

Yes, they did. but in a way I like a lot of it, especially the part that I'm no longer forced to monk-splash if I don't want to be a mana-sponge on a melee.

If they fix the issue where mob to-hit scales far more with difficulty setting than player AC scales with gear, we'd be golden.

Epic elite mobs to-hits are too high, is that what you mean?

They also hit too hard but that's a different issue.

[dterror]

I see what other people claim they get as results, but I have to wonder...are they REALLY getting the results they claim? I run level 14 quests on elite, on a level 15 arti. I don't remember what my AC is at, exactly, but it's not all that high...about a 35-40% chance to miss at level. No dodge, no blur, no displacement although I could certainly utilize scrolls of it if I wished.

I tried running some stuff with full combat feedback turned on, and the results were pretty close to what the AC tooltip stated: About a 30-35% miss rate on all incoming attacks during those level 14 quests on elite.

Mob attacks are like player attacks. Players don't get 1 chance to damage a foe per swing at mid levels and later...instead DDO is frequently rolling 2-3 attacks during a single animation. Same goes for the mobs. So the high AC players see one animation, they see they get hit on that 1 animation...but they don't see the accompanying 1-2 misses that were also rolled during that animation.

[notte.oscura]

The new system rewards mediocrity. Why grind for that one more to hit or one more AC? It doesn't matter, makes no perceptible difference at all.
It devalues build choices, as to hit and AC from stats and feats is pointless. Take a weapon you're proficient in, get a minimum of gear and you're set. The guy who builds for better to hit or AC, and grinds for it for ages, gets so little effect out of it that he is (rightfully) laughed at.

Well, to be good at this game, I am strongly convinced that you should be good at playing it, not just good at grinding

Build still matters: the difference between a "standard" build and an optimized build made by an experienced player is noticeable in my opinion.
Not even counting the fact that in my opinion you should adapt the build to your playstyle, not just going to do the numbers on how much potential damage it does in perfect situations.

[Ape_Man]

Build still matters . . ..

Not regarding defense.

Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of good in the new system but it DOES reward being mediocre. As a defender build you simply have defense just for being a defender with basic vendor-trash loot, same for monks just for being a monk with basic gear. Splash and creative build were completely neutered but U14 with the clearly best ideas just being the cookie-cutter.

it's good that armor itself is better, what's not good is that the "little somethings" that used to mean a lot were watered down to the point of being irrelevant.