Advice on LR? (Ice Savant)

[Myrrae]

Updated
I hit 20 on my sorc and since I'm actually going to stay at 20 for a while I'm going to LR and I'm looking for advice.

Have: 1 wiz past life, eaten +3 to all stats, mediocre gear (Mostly non-raid, non-epic, around level 50ish Cannith Crafting), VIP.

I expect I'll be doing Epic Hard primarily, although I might dip a toe in to try EE if the opportunity arises.

I'm currently Earth Savant, but I'd like to see just how brutal Ice is. I'm assuming that Maximize, Empower, PL:Wiz and Heighten are pretty much a given.

So, to the questions:
1) Can you have too much Evocation spec? I'm assuming that with no Sorc PL there's not really an achievable evocation DC that's too high to be useful, so Epic Spell Focus: Evocation + some destinies? Would it be better to take Epic SF at 21 or take something else first?
2) SF: Necro or Spell pen? I'm assuming Necro as I'll be doing very little if any EE, and the passive Wiz PL should help. But I'm not 100% sure.
3) I'm thinking Acid secondary and Electric tertiary. How well will that work? Or would I be better off going lightning secondary and picking up lightning?
4) 3rd level spells - would I ever even use Acid Blast while cold spec? Debating it vs haste vs something else.
5) How much use would I get out of Cone of Cold? Thinking of skipping it due to Otiluke's and taking Prismatic Ray instead.
6) Is disintegrate's untyped damage still worthwhile? I was using it vs. the annoying dream creatures in IQ etc. but I'm not sure I've got the save DCs to make it worthwhile, especially when I can necrotic ray...
7) Am I crazy for thinking that the instakills make sense even though I'm not a wiz? It just looks like the choice between Meteor Swarm and Wail of the banshee isn't much of a choice. (Or at least I wasn't very impressed with Meteor Swarm when I used it on my wiz).


Here's what I'm thinking on feat order:
1) Empower, Maximize
3) PL: Wiz
6) SF: Evocation
9) GSF: Evocation
12) Toughness (I'd like to ditch this, but need more gear)
15) Heighten
18) SF: Necro (maybe spell pen)
---
Epic Feats: GSF Evocation, then more necro or spell pen.

And here's spells:
Level 1: Nightshield, Jump, Expeditious Retreat, Hypnotism, SLA: Niac's
Level 2: Scorching Ray, Blur, Resist Energy, Web, SLA: Snowball
Level 3: Displacement, Haste, Suggestion, Acid Blast, SLA: Frost Lance
Level 4: Ice Storm, Acid Rain, Dimension Door, Solid Fog (or PK)
Level 5: Niac's, Eledar's, Prot from Elements, Prismatic Ray
Level 6: Otiluke's, Necrotic Ray, Disintegrate (or CoD or something)
Level 7: Disco ball, FoD, Prismatic Spray
Level 8: Otto's dance, Symbol of Death, Polar Ray
Level 9: PW:K, Energy Drain, Wail

Feedback much appreciated!

[Tid12]

Mental Toughness is nearly useless for a sorc.


1) I took Epic SF: Evocation at 21 and Greater Charisma at 24 because I needed just 1 Cha to even it out. You want your EVO DCs in the mid 50 to make them work in the EE, they have really high saves.

2) Not sure why you want necro without Spell Penetration. However, if you want a bit of Necro for those mobs without SP, then SF: Necro is the way to go. The required Spell Penetration for EE is 58 to no-fail IIRC. But most of the mobs have 53-55 so even a 52 Spell Pen should be fine. To reach that, you need every PL probably so might not be good to you.

3) I like better Electric as secondary but Acid is a solid choice too.

4) Haste, Rage, Displacement are musts imho. Acid Blast is good, might keep it if you go for Acid secondary. There aren't many 3rd level spell anyway.

5) I wouldn't skip it. It's not bad actually, I like it.

6) It's still its uses, thou many things will save on EE.

7) No you are not crazy. However, specifically about EE, you will need a crazy high DC to make it work. There are Sorcs that can use it as good as a Wiz (or almost) but they sacrifice DPS for it, specially slotting SP in the Twists, taking SP as feats and so giving up a lot of Evocation DCs.

Skip Mental Toughness, I'd take Extend instead. 5m Haste/Displacement and 7m Rage are awesome! I'd go with SF, GSF, ESF: Evocation.


I cannot give too much feedback on EH because I just try it from time to time. It's really easy easy and you can just nuke them without worrying too much.

[Myrrae]

Oops, somehow in my head I was thinking it was a requirement for Savant, but it's for AM I was wondering why the feats seemed even tighter than I was remembering!

That's what I get for typing it up at work without looking things up.... would ditch it for sure then.

Was debating on Extend, but wasn't sure how it compared to upping DCs.

Pretty sure I won't have the spell pen for EE instakills this life, unless maybe I dropped all the evocation line for spell pen and took epic spell pen but... doesn't seem like it makes sense as a sorc.

I figure once I start playing around with EHs, and then try EE I can see how it goes from there. But I'm planning on TRing for a few more sorc/wiz/FvS PLs some time next year so I can wait.

Updating my post - thanks for catching the Mental Toughness brain lapse!

[Purkilius]

Tid12 gave you very good advice.

4) Haste, rage, displacement and frostlance. Frostlance again because the SLA has a long cool down, when you have weakness on a boss I find it very useful to spam it with with the SLA and other spells.

6) Wail and FoD are very good in IQ against almost everything.

7) I have the same spell selection at lvl 9.

The Frozen tunic and Staff of the Necromancer are a nice combo to start with at EH.

Edit: I would add TS to your spells or gear if you plan to solo the expansion.

[Myrrae]

TS = True Seeing?

If so, that's covered as I have the cove trinket

On the non-SLA Frost Lance do you just use it un-meta'd for the cheap 10 sp blast as opposed to just spamming Polar Ray vs cold weak bosses?

Also, do you find that Rage is useful to you for the hitpoints? (as opposed to being a party friendly buff).

I've got the level 16 frozen tunic now, haven't been 20 long enough to get the runs in for the epic version but it's on my list. Adding the House of Death Undone to my list as well...

[Purkilius]

Right

I have all metas on for the frost lance all 3 have a chance to do critical dmg. Ice is more of a 1 target massive dmg so you use all spells that are not on a cool down and that includes Polar ray both dots SLA´s even Otiluke's if you have enough sp If you have acid as secondary I would try out Dragon bolt as well.

Rage: hp is nice and people tend to get disappointed when you do not have it...

There is a chance to get the staff as a reward for the whole chain as well.

Have fun

[Tid12]

Just another note:

On my Savant, I ditched FoD for Waves of Exhaustion. Playing EE and having a really sub-par necro DC/Spell Penetration means that my FoD never lands on anything. However, it has its uses for leveling, EN and maybe EH.

[Myrrae]

Just another note:

On my Savant, I ditched FoD for Waves of Exhaustion. Playing EE and having a really sub-par necro DC/Spell Penetration means that my FoD never lands on anything. However, it has its uses for leveling, EN and maybe EH.

Hmm, Waves has SR too though, doesn't it? I find myself using Solid Fog to slow things down - the debuff isn't quite as much as Waves but no SR.

Also, for what it's worth, I did EH Beyond the Rift and while I did get a few SR failures it wasn't too bad. And this was with just 27 SR (I think - 20 sorc levels +2 feat +2 enhance +2 item +1 Draconic destiny level 0). My necro DCs seem to be more of an issue right now.

On another note, how often do you use energy drain? I was surprised at how much it was up, but I'm not sure how liberally to apply it. I tend to use Frost lance SLA and necrotic bolt a lot for single target.

[Tid12]

Hmm, Waves has SR too though, doesn't it? I find myself using Solid Fog to slow things down - the debuff isn't quite as much as Waves but no SR.

Also, for what it's worth, I did EH Beyond the Rift and while I did get a few SR failures it wasn't too bad. And this was with just 27 SR (I think - 20 sorc levels +2 feat +2 enhance +2 item +1 Draconic destiny level 0). My necro DCs seem to be more of an issue right now.

On another note, how often do you use energy drain? I was surprised at how much it was up, but I'm not sure how liberally to apply it. I tend to use Frost lance SLA and necrotic bolt a lot for single target.

Yes, it has a SR check too. But, specially in the new quests, there are bears, Plants and the various humans to make it better than FoD. Just need to use on the low SR/no SR mobs. Also, Solid Fog's main debuff is the -5 Reflex saves, really huge.

Without Solid Fog don't even attempt to use Spell with Reflex saves on most spiders on EE, their save is reaaally high (specially the Vicious deathjump spiders IIRC). I have 53 Evo DC, + Solid Fog + Waves of Exhaustion (basically a 60 Evo DC) and they still evade my spells. Wail in these cases is awesome: the free level drains is really helpful.

EH has low CR mobs. The drow's SR is CR + 10 (If i remember correctly) so it's less than 40. For the other mobs it's even lower so you shouldn't have too many problems with SR on EH.

Energy drain is used on the Orange named bears, orange named humans in the new quest, orange named Hezrous. Basically, orange named mobs with middle to no SR. It's very usefull and sometimes a couple of Energy Drain is more DPS than your spells.

[Kinerd]

If you're not going to take Epic Spell Pen, I would go with two Great Charismas instead of an Epic Spell Focus. You have so many schools that could be useful, why not get +1 to them all, right?

Acid is a very strong choice. Black Dragon Bolt and Acid Rain alone, Cloudkill is another sleeper.

Every arcane should have at least some instant kills. There are just too many targets with no Death/Epic Ward or other immunity, and you're at most 5 DC behind a full Necro spec from feats/enhancements. If they have a 95% chance, you have at least a 70% chance, that's easy money. Plus with Wail you get negative levels even if they save! It will make you cry how easy instant killing is in so many places.

[Tid12]

If you're not going to take Epic Spell Pen, I would go with two Great Charismas instead of an Epic Spell Focus. You have so many schools that could be useful, why not get +1 to them all, right?

Acid is a very strong choice. Black Dragon Bolt and Acid Rain alone, Cloudkill is another sleeper.

Every arcane should have at least some instant kills. There are just too many targets with no Death/Epic Ward or other immunity, and you're at most 5 DC behind a full Necro spec from feats/enhancements. If they have a 95% chance, you have at least a 70% chance, that's easy money. Plus with Wail you get negative levels even if they save! It will make you cry how easy instant killing is in so many places.

It's not 5 DC behind. You won't have the Magister +3 Necro DC, no +2 from GSF: Necro, no +2 stat from capstone, no +3 Necro staff, no +5 from surge. I have 54 Cha fully buffed (can have something more but this is the sustainable) on my sorc and if I equip a Staff of Petitioner, I have 43 necro DC. Nowhere near the 50+ needed for Epic Elites.

If you are talking about EH then it may be enough but building a char for a mid-difficulty isn't really good imho.

I agree on Wail thou: its neg levels are awesome.

[Kinerd]

It's not 5 DC behind. You won't have the Magister +3 Necro DC,

Why not? It's only a level 2 twist.

no +2 from GSF: Necro, no +2 stat from capstone,

I counted these and the 2 from either Wizard PrE to get my 5.

no +3 Necro staff,

Why not? Staffs are easy to swap as necessary.

no +5 from surge.

I don't know what you're referring to there, but I will agree that 5 would make a bigger difference...

...but still, a 50% shot to instant kill is worth slotting IMO. It's not like you're going to run out of Spell Points, right?

[Tid12]

Why not? It's only a level 2 twist.

Because it's either that or Evocation DC. Having to choosing between a sub-par Necro DC and a good Evo DC for EE I will choose the second one.

Why not? Staffs are easy to swap as necessary.

True but too many swaps. You should: Equip Staff, Cast fod and wail, equip set of scepters or whatever, cast Evo spells, equip staff again..over and over

I don't know what you're referring to there, but I will agree that 5 would make a bigger difference...

From the Magister tree:

Lv5 Innate Ability

Arcane spellsurge: Active Ability: (Cooldown 4 mins) +5 to all spell DCs for 20 seconds.

You probably will end up in DI so no Spellsurge.

[Myrrae]

Hadn't thought about Greater Charisma. Good point! 1 or 2 depending on evening them out... I definitely wish I had more feats

I'm planning on building more for EH right now because I have almost no epic gear and it's a stepping stone for bigger and better things. If I move on to EE, well, that's what my lotto hearts are good for.

What Evo DC is a save only on 20 for EE? (I know there's differences, especially between good saves/bad saves, mob types, just curious about in general)

I'm definitely finding Wail to be awesome, and now I'm trying to figure out how to work Cloudkill into my spells... I had it before and like it, but fitting everything I want in is rough. Symbol of Death has been pretty nice. Last night I did I Dream of Jeets and Cellimas was gone pretty much as soon as she arrived.

I'm still not sure what I want to do with EDs ultimately. One I've thought of is twisting in Daunting Roar and the Energy Burst and then going Magister. In some respects it doesn't matter for most of my 'grinding' because I need to be in other destinies to get the fate points to unlock the twists anyway. Debating sort of alternating between Fatesinger, Magister & DI just so I don't feel quite as unpowered when I drop down to the less wanted destiny.

On another note: does the cold shield proc from Frozen Tunic remove Energy Sheath? I was trying to watch for it last night, but the icon for Energy Sheath is so generic I often lose track.

[Kinerd]

Because it's either that or Evocation DC. Having to choosing between a sub-par Necro DC and a good Evo DC for EE I will choose the second one.

I don't know, I think I would rather have a +15% shot at 100% death than a +15% shot at 100% damage (or even worse, 50% damage for non-Evaders), especially when your specific to Reflex AoE debuffer works a lot quicker than your specific to Fort AoE debuffer.

True but too many swaps. You should: Equip Staff, Cast fod and wail, equip set of scepters or whatever, cast Evo spells, equip staff again..over and over

I think if you limited yourself to swapping for Wail and CoD it wouldn't be too bad, and you'd get a lot of the power of Necromancy. There's also the new +2 spell mastery cloak to consider.

From the Magister tree:

Lv5 Innate Ability

Arcane spellsurge: Active Ability: (Cooldown 4 mins) +5 to all spell DCs for 20 seconds.

You probably will end up in DI so no Spellsurge.

I see... pshaw! 5 DC (meaningful) * 1/12 uptime = not very meaningful.

I'm definitely finding Wail to be awesome, and now I'm trying to figure out how to work Cloudkill into my spells... I had it before and like it, but fitting everything I want in is rough. Symbol of Death has been pretty nice. Last night I did I Dream of Jeets and Cellimas was gone pretty much as soon as she arrived.

Cloudkill may be the ultimate finesse arcane spell. One saving grace for it is that it has an enormous duration, though, which makes it easier to deploy in the wait around for spawns quests that are regrettably becoming more and more popular with designers.