There's no need to belittle....

[Son_of_the_South]

I joined a group for Tempests Spine last night and, almost as soon as i joined there was a Monk harassing one of the Wizards in the party about their HP (was around 100 for a level 9 or 10 Wiz). This was all done in the chat tab btw (its just so easy to pick on people 'anonymously' isnt it??). He then suggested that someone with HP that low is an "auto kick". Nevermind the fact that the Monk (at level 10) only had 190 HP themself and, when i mentioned this to them (I use voice chat, i feel it puts the human element into things and i believe I am man enough to voice my opinions, not just write them) they left shortly thereafter.

My point is, not everybody has been playing the game for ever and knows all the ins-and-outs yet. Rather than ridicule people and belittle them, why not try and suggest ways they can improve - perhaps even wait till they ask you first (manners are always welcomed). If they want your advice, i am sure they will ask, otherwise it's no big deal.

It's a game after all.

[FestusHood]

I agree with everything you're saying. DDO is a microcosm and, like in real life you'll find all kinds of people here. Not really much you can do about it, but i salute you for sticking up for the little guy.

[justhavinfun]

This always annoys me. I have seen some very well played characters who did not have what most people would consider enough hps. They built their character for a specific purpose and are able to carry out that purpose. I have seen these players outlast players with twice the hps they had and politely carry their soul stones to the nearest shrine. Low hps do not always equal low ability.

Some players actually believe in using tactics to survive a dungeon. This normally does not mean enter the door and run straight to the end boss dragging everythng along the way with you. What it does mean is actually killing the mobs encountered along the way.

I would love to see some of these players if PnP rules were actually used. This would mean that a wizard would be lucky to have 4 hps at level 1. Would really like to see one hit 300 hps by level 10.

[thouston]

begin edit... 8<----------------------------------------------------
my point is, not everybody has been playing the game for ever and knows all the ins-and-outs yet. Rather than ridicule people and belittle them, why not try and suggest ways they can improve - perhaps even wait till they ask you first (manners are always welcomed). If they want your advice, i am sure they will ask, otherwise it's no big deal.
---------------------------------------------------->8 ...end edit

+1
well said

[Uska]

While I would have some concerns if his hp were that low I would give him the opportunity to prove him/herself before voicing them, if they then died constantly I might offer a suggestion or two on how to improve their survival rate. But there is no need to insult a player where offering help could do so much more.

[gee-dragon776]

/signed.

For my friend FRIEZA of Sarlona ; a THW fighting PM, who made 19th in a month and has saved the party on many occasions.

Enough said!

[LazarusPossum]

Some players actually believe in using tactics to survive a dungeon. This normally does not mean enter the door and run straight to the end boss dragging everythng along the way with you. What it does mean is actually killing the mobs encountered along the way.

Exactly. I always figured "elite" meant that you could handle whatever comes your way, not avoid most things that come your way.

[AzB]

This always annoys me. I have seen some very well played characters who did not have what most people would consider enough hps. They built their character for a specific purpose and are able to carry out that purpose. I have seen these players outlast players with twice the hps they had and politely carry their soul stones to the nearest shrine. Low hps do not always equal low ability.

Some players actually believe in using tactics to survive a dungeon. This normally does not mean enter the door and run straight to the end boss dragging everythng along the way with you. What it does mean is actually killing the mobs encountered along the way.

I would love to see some of these players if PnP rules were actually used. This would mean that a wizard would be lucky to have 4 hps at level 1. Would really like to see one hit 300 hps by level 10.

Had to repeat it one more time. I had my wiz denied entry into a group in Gianthold because he didn't have enough hp. Apparently, a 13th level wiz with 26 const and almost 180hp at 13th level is gimpy.

Meanwhile, he can solo most quests at level on hard or even elite. It's all in how you use what you got. The beauty of this game is how it can be played so differently each time based on characters, tactics, and group dynamics. And personally, I think 180hp isn't that bad for a non melee toon at 13th level.

[Llewndyn]

This always annoys me. I have seen some very well played characters who did not have what most people would consider enough hps. They built their character for a specific purpose and are able to carry out that purpose. I have seen these players outlast players with twice the hps they had and politely carry their soul stones to the nearest shrine. Low hps do not always equal low ability.

Some players actually believe in using tactics to survive a dungeon. This normally does not mean enter the door and run straight to the end boss dragging everythng along the way with you. What it does mean is actually killing the mobs encountered along the way.

I would love to see some of these players if PnP rules were actually used. This would mean that a wizard would be lucky to have 4 hps at level 1. Would really like to see one hit 300 hps by level 10.

sometimes it's fun/ necessary to zerg (gerard dryden's tomb, coal chamber, sins of attrition, anything in Dreaming dark) to make the game fun, and I respect and value the opinions/ playstyle of those who do that, but there's nothing wrong with a little roleplay (that's what my mailman and neighbor keep telling me, then they and my wife all wink in unison... hmmmm) every once in a while, and there's really no reason to insult someone for not hitting a certain benchmark. Actually, if you are a min/ maxer, or like to zerg, consider it an added challenge, "hey I bet we can complete this whole quest before this guy has a chance to die", then see if you are REALLY as good as you think you are!

I am on life number 6 on my main, and I have low HP because I am a drow caster and I use my time wisely. I die, often, but most of the time I am the last person standing or die while clearing to the shrine with 5 pieces of precious cargo in my thong (no room in backpack usually), and I don't see a whole lot of reason to change any of that. I do fine with what I have, and when someone joins a group I am in, I assume the same about them until they prove me wrong, I learned that lesson from my son, who had 212 HP total at cap on his halfling wizard but ran circles around my 420 HP first life cleric in both kills and survivability. The same rush you get from completely dominating a quest with sheer brute force and 0 strategy is what someone else gets from making it through a quest with no margin for error, every mob making them wonder if this is going to be the time I don't make a save or zig when I shoulda zagged and get completely plastered... no reason to jump their case for enjoying the game.

If they die, though, let the insults fly (unless it's me, then it was lag.)

[Spoonwelder]

My rule of thumb (for my characters) is to aim for a fully buffed 15+hp per level on a non-melee and 20+/level on a melee. (not counting temp buffs like rage etc..)

That is the discussion I would have with that player.

The math for this guy at L10 is -
Imp False Life is 20
Toughness feat and 1 or 2 enhancement is say 22-32
Base HP - 40
Con HP - 20-40 (10-14 base including +4 stat boost item)
Heroic - 20
-------------
Total 122-152 and I am missing stuff

So at 100 he is either a low con drow or not taking his toughness enhancement. Not major but it would be better to point that out then 'belittling' him....

When it comes to hit points anything other than -10 is trumped by player ability.

[countfitz]

I agree with everything you're saying. DDO is a microcosm and, like in real life you'll find all kinds of people here. Not really much you can do about it, but i salute you for sticking up for the little guy.

"Sticking up for the little guy?" Really... I read that as he was upset a monk only had 190 HPs at level 10. I mean, come on, my cleric has around 300 by then, and my FvS has 400. A melee class at level 10, with 190 HPs! I'd have ridiculed him whether or not he was picking on a wizard.

(joking... kinda)

[Captain_Wizbang]

If I had the star, the whiner would have had a very fast exit.

TS is one of the quests/ raids that helps teach newer players, always has, always will.

And what does anyone care about another persons toon at that lvl?

Give that monk the boot!

[Son_of_the_South]

"Sticking up for the little guy?" Really... I read that as he was upset a monk only had 190 HPs at level 10. I mean, come on, my cleric has around 300 by then, and my FvS has 400. A melee class at level 10, with 190 HPs! I'd have ridiculed him whether or not he was picking on a wizard.

(joking... kinda)

Even though i know you're (kinda) joking, I was sticking up for the little guy, especially because she/he was silent throughout this, unwarranted, tirade. I DID however make sure to point out to the Monk that MY Monk had over 300 HP at level 12.....not to be insulting but just to say hey; it goes both ways bud. :-)

Glad to see there are so many like minded individuals here and it isnt just me who finds this frustrating.

Id never kick someone from my groups for low hit points. Being mouthy and rude, yes.

[chyribdus]

I've had times when my semi-gimp wizard got ridiculed. The party leader didn't boot me and the person who did it stayed. It was down right hilarious when i ended up saving his elitist butt in the quest more than once because he couldn't stay anywhere near the healer and kept almost dying. Some people have no right being called human. It's been made clear that i'll let most people stay in party unless they have proven themselves to be both "gimp" and unreliable.

[TrinityTurtle]

[QUOTE=Son_of_the_South;4664901]Even though i know you're (kinda) joking, I was sticking up for the little guy, especially because she/he was silent throughout this, unwarranted, tirade. [QUOTE]

It's also entirely possible the caster was silent becuase they realized early on where it was going, and did what I usually do when I'm not in the mood for crazy, and squelched the guy, and was blissfully unaware of anything hte monk said after that.

[AzB]

I thought about this thread last night; while forming a pug for my lower level toon there was one guy who trundled up with an 80 hp rogue at 9th lvl. I thought that was way low, but didn't say anything. The quest went very smoothly, but we hit some bad luck and timing about 2/3 of the way through and the entire party wiped. Except for Mr. Rogue with 80 hp. He very calmly picked up everyone's stones and headed to the shrine.

So while hp are very useful, playing smart is more useful-er.

And how dumb would I have looked if I had made fun of his low hp before hand? Sure glad I kept my mouth shut!

[Singular]

Like you guys, I don't say anything when I see a toon with low hp. But it does raise my eyebrows. After all, the player must either be very good or new to the game. Last week I ended up running with this arty in a bunch of different parties - just coincidence. We're both arties, same level, I'm human and he's a warforged. He had half my hp, but insisted on running ahead in trying to disarm traps. That got him killed repeatedly. At first I was a touch annoyed but then, remembering 'game,' I just wanted to see how far he would lead the death-count. It was pretty amusing to see someone so unconcerned with dying that they would find the traps the barbarian way rather than use that skill thingy artificers have.

[Fefnir_2011]

I've seen people with obscene amounts of hit points by level 10 die and contribute nothing in groups, because they built only for HP.

I also know a rogue with under 300 hit points at level 22 and no heavy fort item who is very often the last one standing in a group.

I guess the moral is don't judge a book by its cover, or a build by anything but the player's skill.

[Mennion]

Because the game aint being played like it should be.

When DDO was first concieved, I dont presume, but hope that it was thought of as a digital version of the PNP game. Unfortunately this is rarely the case. I have
rarely been in a PUG that has not had the some of the of characters charging around like a bunch of loons. If this were PNP, or an older digital incarnation like Baldurs Gate (I loved it) you had a marching order and worked your party together slowly as a team. That way, the weaker characters did not die! If DDO was played at a slower pace with co-operation then low hit points would not matter as much.

We all like to play in different ways but it seems to me that there is so much emphasis on the end game, Grinding, farming, zerging, without enjoying the cool stuff in between. The warforged rogue perhaps knew no better?
When i play a rogue in a guild group, i scout ahead, check for traps and disarm them. Like the character is designed for. If i play a rogue in a PUG, i end up disarming them after the peleton has gone through!

I have posted in another thread about the lack of actual roleplaying and suggested some sort of RP indicater. However the lack of co-operation is the most frustrating and a real shame.

In the immortal words of Ferris the War Bull
"If you dont stop and take a look around every once in a while, you could miss it"

[blerkington]

I joined a group for Tempests Spine last night and, almost as soon as i joined there was a Monk harassing one of the Wizards in the party about their HP (was around 100 for a level 9 or 10 Wiz). This was all done in the chat tab btw (its just so easy to pick on people 'anonymously' isnt it??). He then suggested that someone with HP that low is an "auto kick". Nevermind the fact that the Monk (at level 10) only had 190 HP themself and, when i mentioned this to them (I use voice chat, i feel it puts the human element into things and i believe I am man enough to voice my opinions, not just write them) they left shortly thereafter.

My point is, not everybody has been playing the game for ever and knows all the ins-and-outs yet. Rather than ridicule people and belittle them, why not try and suggest ways they can improve - perhaps even wait till they ask you first (manners are always welcomed). If they want your advice, i am sure they will ask, otherwise it's no big deal.

It's a game after all.

Hi,

I agree with most of what you're saying. It's very poor form to pick on people because of their build choices. You may think the build choice is stupid, and it may actually be stupid, but giving someone a hard time over it is completely inappropriate. Either help them nicely or shut up about it are the two best options, in my opinion anyway.

Your comment about being man enough to voice your opinion interested me though. I don't use a microphone myself, but I don't feel any less of a man for it.

In my experience, people take advantage of the microphone to say unpleasant things they wouldn't dare type into party chat because then there would be a record of it. This was explained to me by a veteran player not long after I started playing (as part of his 'how to deal with a person misbehaving in a raid' talk) and I've seen many examples of it since then.

I'm certainly not saying you would do that, because your initial post suggests to me that you are a good person. But others certainly do abuse voice chat, and to my mind, living with evidence and consequences of what you've said is the higher standard, rather than mouthing off over the mic and then being able to deny it.

Thanks.