Clerics of Amaunator? Hah!

[MindReaper]

I've been playing DDO now for only a few months. In fact, the first major purchase I had was the expansion. The inclusion of the Forgotten Realms brought me to this game. My playstyle has always been that of support. I love to help out others with their games rather than focus on my own, but on the flip side, to be an effective support, you usually have to be stronger than others to hold them up. My main is a cleric with fully maxed lvl and about 6 epic destinys at lvl 3-4. I have played healers in MMOs for years, and usually play clerics in D&D itself (usually because they are needed, and nobody enjoys playing them since they usually help others get the glory rather than themselves). I understand that in this game, most healers have transitioned to using Favored Souls as the default healer type because of it's large spell pool, no real need for the extra AC and other defenses that clerics tend towards, and the desire to actually do some decent DPS. I can see that most of the "healer" loot, design, and features tend to go more towards the favored souls than clerics (there is no real "Cleric" Epic Destiny, turning undead is a joke). I like to overly research a character before and even as I play them, and I have come to the full realization that to be an effective "Cleric" in this game, I'm going to need to go piecemeal.

I can understand that it's just a game, and healers almost always get the short end of the stick on gear/abilities/spells/design decisions, especially in the end-game, since healers are not encouraged to actually participate more than necessary, since a "Healer" that does something else isn't spending all of his/her free time studying the hit points of everyone else in the party so that their own players don't have to. This is actually the basic point of a Healer, so I don't begrudge it. I knew what I was getting into when I started. Somebody has to do it... may as well be me.

But I can't really see why the "Clerics" of Amaunator don't seem to have anything to do with Clerics. There is no heavy armor in their lists, no shields, I can't possibly get their Super Secret Handshake Special Set Bonus unless I start wearing Medium armor. They seem to be the Favored Souls of Amaunator, not clerics, which is strange, because there are only supposed to be 1-2 favored souls of any given Deity, but hundreds/thousands of clerics. Did these Clerics hear about all the favored souls of other pantheons coming into the forgotten realms and rush out with leftover trinkets and things to welcome them to the new world, but decided that they didn't want any Clerics of other Gods to be welcome and maybe spread their heresies?

Btw: The differences in Favored Souls and Clerics are VAST. There are far fewer favored souls in the world, they can't turn undead, can cast whatever spells they know when they want, but can't change what spells they know easily, don't use Heavy Armors, and don't have ANY access to domains, unlike the clerics. This game seems to erase all the benefits of Clerics (access to domains, AC, Turn Undead) to make them either less valuable, or not even existent, while exaggerating the benefits of Favored Souls due to the spell point system, and the fact that most Cleric spells either don't exist or are particularly useless.

I might not like those design decisions, but I can still appreciate a game for what it is. But I would really like the Clerics in the game to act like clerics, and not some kind of Favored Soul Sycophants. Maybe even have some Cleric gear for us. In the meantime, I'll use your ring, some armor and shield a Paladin was selling in a Garage Sale, some random Monk's bracers, the amulet that the wizards had leftover after their guys were finished getting what they wanted, a dagger I stole from a Priestess, and some goggles and maybe even boots that those crazy druids were showing off in their area. Nobody likes a Cleric, not even the "Clerics".

[Meiron]

Actually AC has become far more useful with the expansion, and the difference between a Cleric who uses a tower shield and a melee FVS is significant enough to matter in most content. Also, Cleric prestige enhancements are excellent, including a heal aura and a healing burst cast entirely from regenerating turn undead attempts rather than mana. Clerics are better pure healers than FVS for that reason alone. They certainly have more healing spellpower. Of course pure healers are not really necessary in this game, and if you can do 90% of Cleric healing with 500% more DPS, then FVS looks pretty attractive.

As to your other complaints, well, it's not going to kill you to use medium armor rather than heavy. You know what access my WF FVS has to armor? The extremely bland Ancient Gemstone. That's about it. Moreover I don't even have my deity's favored weapon available in the expansion. Out of the entire Forgotten Realms nobody apparently remembered to create a single named greatsword!

[janave]

Cleric is free for all, FVS is a p2p option. That summarizes priorities for the designers, now we have druids as a potential support healer class. Additionally, by endgame most characters can reach some level of self sufficiency easier than ever.

Id not recommend anyone to play a Cleric at the current state of the game, unless.

* 1. Dont have acess to FVS.
* 2. Absolutely just starting out in DDO.

My further advice would be not going pure, create a versatile multiclass instead that you enjoy playing. You can help the party in so many other ways with a good multiclass build instead of *healboting*.

[maddmatt70]

You forgot to mention that after 6 years of DDO clerics still do not have clerical domains. There is no greater evidence that clerics are second class citizens then that fact. One of the cleric's core abilities in D&D 3.5 still is not in the game..

[HGM-Chi]

Moreover I don't even have my deity's favored weapon available in the expansion. Out of the entire Forgotten Realms nobody apparently remembered to create a single named greatsword!

You're in the Forgotten Realms now! Where is your God? You have no God here, son.

[HAL]

This^. I wouldn't even type any more because the OP said it all...but there is a minimum character count

[Chai]

When clerics get their offense based PRE is when this corner should be turned. FvS got their offense based PRE while clerics got their defense / mitigation based PRE.

Warpriest should be competitive with AoV.

[MindReaper]

Actually, I quite enjoy the Cleric class. I fully understand that as a whole, Favored Souls are better at sitting back and healing, and Clerics are usually better at being up front and healing. In Unyeilding Sentinel mode, my cleric has about 52 Physical Resistance, ~85 AC, 1% dodge, 10% Ghostly miss chance, and ~750hp. I can usually put on my healing aura (which ticks on me with Healing Amp for about 51 and around 150 for a crit), and just sit in the middle of a pile of enemies on Epic Hard and watch them try and damage me. I'm not complaining about the gear, I manage just fine with my piecemeal approach, I'm not even complaining about my lack of DPS (which can be decent-ish with BB and Divine Punishment) or the lack of an actual end game destiny (I can stick with paladin with bits and pieces of Favored Soul and others). But it seems like this game has largely forgotten that Clerics exist (along with bards and paladins, and sometimes even the Warforged race itself). Even the "Clerics" of Amaunator forgot that clerics wear half or full plate rather than medium armor. The FVS epic destiny doesn't even count our healing aura ticks as healing for purposes of stacking counters, and there is no way I can spam enough light spells to make that one worthwhile to up my healing abilities.

I am fine with the Favored Souls of the world getting all their awesome stuff, and not being left out, especially since to even make one you have to pay for the privilege, but I haven't seen any truly "Cleric" heavy armor, shields, (not counting that nice one from R15), or weapons... Not even from the Cleric representatives of Eveningstar seem to have anything on hand for us. The developers of the game seem to want to lump "Healers" in one big group and give everyone access to it all rather than giving something to FVS and something to Clerics to separate us out. Well... I guess they did give us each ONE enhancement chain, a healing one to Clerics and a more Offensive Caster one to FVS. I think that maybe that was their one and only attempt at separating the healers of the world into two groups.

In the end, it's a game that I have a lot of fun with. I have a character that I enjoy, even if he might not be "UberMaximizedSwouperAwesomeSauce". I just thought it was a bit odd that the Clerics don't cater to Clerics...

Of course, the Purple Dragon Knights don't seem to specialize in catering to Purple Dragons either, so who am I to say anything. This Forgotten Realms area seems to be a bit in the Backwoods area of the Multiverse.

[susiedupfer]

I really do. I love this game. I loved playing clerics. I do not know why Turbine and the powers that be decided to ignore/snub clerics. I think it was deliberate, but I will give them the benefit of doubt.

There has been much wailing and gnashing of teeth since U14(x-pac) came out about this on the forums So, do not think you are alone. Maybe they listened, and they are revamping cleric enhancements, giving us a real cleric ED, and cleric gear.

If clerics do not get some serious love in the enhancement pass, I may not play them for a while. Druids are fun! Just saying.

[Fefnir_2011]

The cleric set is kind of pointless for a lot of people.

Necklace - conflicts with torc, and if you wear one of the Demonweb armors with +8 Wisdom then the wisdom on this is redundant
Ring - probably the best part, I replaced my ToD +2 wisdom rings with this.
Armor - the Terrorweb Chitin is better for clerics and favored souls, and can be made part of the set. The Embrace would be even better but they saw fit not to let it be used in the set....
Shortsword - not even a weapon that any divine can use unless they have martial proficiencies or are a drow

[DevHead]

Clerics need a god. That's how they work. And they need the domains that go with those gods. Give me domains and I'll likely never play another class.

[dejafu]

The cleric set is kind of pointless for a lot of people.
Shortsword - not even a weapon that any divine can use unless they have martial proficiencies or are a drow

The short sword really should have included weapon proficiency:short sword as one of its traits. Maybe we'll be seeing an easy way for non-drow divines to get short sword proficiency in the upcoming enhancement pass, but that's MONTHS away.

The irony that only DROW can currently wield this without spending a feat slot is kind of funny

[Khatzhas]

Just because its being offered by the therics, does not mean that its solely for the use of clerics.
The set they provide works with both Clerics and favoured souls. Its easier than making sets for every single class and variation on each class.
More unusual character concepts may need to look elsewhere if they want to specialise in more unusual things. A cleric that likes to tank it up in melee will prefer heavy armour. Most clerics generally don't, and so medium armour is acceptable. Clonks for example will also need to find alternative armour.
The shortsword is not there for the use of clerics. Its there to give non-clerics something to work for, as well as being another variation on a fairly classic D&D weapon.

The sets are a way to get a newly-arrived character to a competent level of gear in their most common aspects. Once you have that, you can start fine-tuning with the drops and other more random loot.

Clerics do have the faith tenets. That is what represents their "god". (Although many faiths in Eberron don't actually have a god as such.) What exactly would you want out of Domains? Access to a wider range of spells?
And if Domains were introduced, which ones would be demanded?

[Vormaerin]

The group giving out loot is called "The Clerics of Amaunator" (aka the god of the sun). It is NOT a class based turn in vendor like the "cleric trainer" or something.

Or did you think the Villagers only give out stuff useful to villager class characters?

The Star of Day is a high powered version of the sunblade, an item holy to Amaunator as god of the sun and blowing up undead. It is not necessarily intended for clerics. Its not only clerics who get the amaunator commendations.

Or maybe I should start a thread about how rogues are screwed because there isn't even a "Thieves' Guild of Eveningstar" vendor and we have to beg from the priests for their unwanted shortswords?


I know you are newish to DDO, but this game has never had and likely will never have class specific vendors. The level up trainers are the only class specific NPCs in the game. Everything else is based on an organization in the game world, not a class. I know that's not how other MMOs do it, but if you keep looking for class based gear in DDO, you are going to be disappointed over and over again.

[MindReaper]

The group giving out loot is called "The Clerics of Amaunator" (aka the god of the sun). It is NOT a class based turn in vendor like the "cleric trainer" or something.

Or did you think the Villagers only give out stuff useful to villager class characters?

The Star of Day is a high powered version of the sunblade, an item holy to Amaunator as god of the sun and blowing up undead. It is not necessarily intended for clerics. Its not only clerics who get the amaunator commendations.

Or maybe I should start a thread about how rogues are screwed because there isn't even a "Thieves' Guild of Eveningstar" vendor and we have to beg from the priests for their unwanted shortswords?


I know you are newish to DDO, but this game has never had and likely will never have class specific vendors. The level up trainers are the only class specific NPCs in the game. Everything else is based on an organization in the game world, not a class. I know that's not how other MMOs do it, but if you keep looking for class based gear in DDO, you are going to be disappointed over and over again.

I know. I understand the mechanics of MMOs and why certain things are done the way they are. I've been playing games like this for years and fully expect a certain amount of "one size fits all" approach to new content. It keeps the "This other group got this, why can't we get it because it's so much more awesome than what you gave us?" down to a minimum when everyone gets access to the same thing. Over time though, that approach can build up resentment when the main features of your class are never fully recognized. You don't feel that you are special in any significant way, and you seem to be pigeonholed into a specific role that you didn't ask for (Bards, I'm looking at you, you slow buffbots. Sit back and sing of all our glories while we bask in our awesomeness). I personally only use the ring from the "Clerics". I'm sure other classes have things that they like for their builds.

I think the main problem I have comes not from the End-Game-Ability/Usefulness of the items themselves, rather than the flavor aspects of them. These are supposed to be rewards from commendations that the "Clerics" handed out, thus the items that you get from them should be items that the "Clerics" of Amaunator had on hand to give to those that reflect their ideals (i.e. Members of their Order). What crazy Cleric group hands out to their members: short swords, medium armor, rings, and amulets, and says that if you want the real blessing of God, you have to wear this armor instead of what all the other Clerics are wearing. No other FR group seems to do this. The wizards have things that wizards wear, the Purple Dragon Knights seem to be all into Heavy Duty warrior gear, the druids don't have anything metal in their lists, and while the villagers items have monk styled items, they are items that villagers might be expected to have: a staff, some bracers, a belt.

It's just thinking of this discrepancy made it pretty clear that the developers seem to have forgotten about actual Clerics when they make things for healers. It shows in the Destinies, the Gear, the Spells, the Non-existant Domains. It just seems a bit backwards. Actually, medium armor (Hide) should really be over in the druid camp for medium armor healers. And maybe not even have armor as even a part of the Cleric/Healer set. Maybe do a weapon other than short sword (Something blunt: mace or scepter comes to mind although obviously it would have to do with Fire/Sun/Time/Magic the things that matter to Amaunator), a ring, an amulet, and maybe a hat. Clerics need hats right? And that way you could support healers of all types since we all like to wear something different when it comes to armor.

Never once did I state that we were screwed in our items, just that we seem to be overlooked often. I have fun in the game, and love the atmosphere and style of the world. The quests are fun, and I enjoy the game. If I didn't, I'd play something else. I enjoy my Cleric, if I didn't, I'd play someone else. I just wanted to look around and say "We aren't all Favored Souls!"

[Missing_Minds]

When clerics get their offense based PRE is when this corner should be turned. FvS got their offense based PRE while clerics got their defense / mitigation based PRE.

Warpriest should be competitive with AoV.

Exactly. Which is the only reason I haven't TRed the fvs yet. I've been waiting to see what the other two PrEs are going to be like.

[Enoach]

The pure cleric can be very versatile. Without having any splashes they can wield a weapon and have the Same (if not higher) BaB as an equal level melee. Their ability to use any single handed martial weapon/Tower shields without proficiency penalty is only limited by their ability to use Master Touch Scrolls (10 UMD = 50% chance lasts until rest/death) which would be used outside of combat so 1 or 2 failures doesn't hurt.

On turning, as one that has played PnP you already know that turning never actually equated to destruction, but instead usually meant that they would flee from your presence. Only Followers of Pelor qualified for a special version of the Turn Undead Feat that destroyed Undead outright - This is similar to our Radiant Servant PrE.

However, there are some high level content where Undead get a Deathward effect that prevents instant death. These can be bypassed by using Dispell or Greater Dispell just prior to using Turn Undead. In IQ the Skeleton in Jeets Closet as well as the Giant Skeleton in Reclaiming Memories both can be taken out using this method. Which can be done on a first life cleric. Use of the Eternal Rest Spell and at least a Sacred item can help assure success.

On a second life cleric level 20, running Cove Event against the undead it took 3 turns to destroy 9 Undead or it took 3 Bursts to destroy 9 Undead. Difference was that with each turn I reduced the number of attacking mobs by 3, with each burst I only damaged all 9 1/3 of their available health.

-------------------
The only aspect that the Cleric is going without atm is Domains. They may seem like a small piece but it is not necessarily the Spells themselves that are the important factors, but the bonus the focus brings with it. I too am looking forward to getting domains (maybe, hopefully, please)

Until than I will continue to play my Cleric and support my party by filling the needed role, be it healing, front line melee, tank or CC castor.

[DevHead]

Yes, the ability to Turn Undead got better with this update (especially with Silver Flame items), but that shouldn't be their only sweet ability, neither should turning. Domains are what Clerics truly versatile, and they should be implemented. I don't know how many or which ones, but they should be there, and they should be auto-grants with no AP cost. They've got limited uses, anyway.

[Vormaerin]

They've got limited uses, anyway.

I don't see how you can say that. Everything else in DDO that is spell casting related was converted to spell points. Domains, if implemented, would end up being something like arcane SLAs.

The big problem with domains, of course, is that 90% of them do things that are completely useless in DDO. Either they are spells that aren't useful (stone shape, say) or are already on the cleric's list and are supposed to give an extra use in the spell slot system (like the entire Healing Domain).

So you'd be left with a handful of domains that borrow the useful offensive or defensive spells from the arcanes. Which is fine, except that they'd do jack for damage in DDO because clerics don't have enhancement lines for electricity or cold or acid and they'd whine about needing to have two more specialist enhancement items to be competitive.

Domains are not nearly as straightforward an implementation as people seem to think. Would they be cheap SLAs, in which case Healing Domain would be practically mandatory to save SP for other purposes and give another Heal cooldown? Or would they be more like dragonmark clickies? That would be pretty useless.

[DevHead]

I don't see how you can say that. Everything else in DDO that is spell casting related was converted to spell points. Domains, if implemented, would end up being something like arcane SLAs.

The big problem with domains, of course, is that 90% of them do things that are completely useless in DDO. Either they are spells that aren't useful (stone shape, say) or are already on the cleric's list and are supposed to give an extra use in the spell slot system (like the entire Healing Domain).

So you'd be left with a handful of domains that borrow the useful offensive or defensive spells from the arcanes. Which is fine, except that they'd do jack for damage in DDO because clerics don't have enhancement lines for electricity or cold or acid and they'd whine about needing to have two more specialist enhancement items to be competitive.

Domains are not nearly as straightforward an implementation as people seem to think. Would they be cheap SLAs, in which case Healing Domain would be practically mandatory to save SP for other purposes and give another Heal cooldown? Or would they be more like dragonmark clickies? That would be pretty useless.

Yes, SLAs. And if they don't exist, make them exist. Just because we do not yet know how to implement doesn't mean they *shouldn't* be there. Domains are one of the most important features for clerics!